GAA All-Ireland vs GPA All-Ireland

[rosnarun]

I dont think the rubuicon will be crossed untill players have a choice be tween working and playing for a living up till then everything else is a bonus. Players are already makeing money from being top players through softjobs and the pittence the GPA bring in from marketing but id you divide €5M by 32 counties and leave a mere 30 players on each hurling and football panel it works out at about €2,500 a year each that a perk not professionalism

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

Bumping this up a last time folks, just in case anybody missed it last week.

Don't agree that the Rubicon would only be crossed when it's a question of either working or playing for a living; I think it will be crossed when it's pay-for-play, effectively or otherwise, where players might practically, potentially, or theoretically withhold their services until payment's rendered... not a pleasant vista, if not quite appalling.

[believebelive]

To be honest it is hard to comment unless the specifics are on the table. The debate will not kick off until the government make a comment. I do think it is shoddy that the GPA and the GAA did not disclose what the specifics were, i mean what have they got to hide, unless the government wanted them to keep quiet about it.

[Fishead_Sam]

Question not all that balanced, Matty Forde, Declan Browne, John Doyle in small counties or look how Mayo, Kerry, Tyrone can survive without about 5 or 6 stars, but thats a tangent, I get what your saying. I voted yes, I really do beleive the amature status should be preserved to a degree, but what I saw less than €3,500 for All-Ireland winners is hardly paying its more like expenses. But anything more than this, i.e. Professionalism I would be fully against.

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

Reassuring piece in the Irish Times today, from Kieran Mc Geeney.

McGeeney makes a strong case

Ian O'Riordan

With increasing rumour the Government is about to reject the proposed €5 million for player welfare grants there was some noticeably vocal support yesterday from Armagh footballer Kieran McGeeney. He criticised those finding fault in the proposals and urged the Government to keep up their half of the bargain, which McGeeney argued would ultimately help preserve the GAA's amateur status.

The Government is still considering the proposal, agreed between the GAA and Gaelic Players Association (GPA) a week ago, and a decision is expected within days. In the meantime the proposals haven't escaped criticism, even from within the GAA, although McGeeney was adamant the grants should be allowed to work.

"It's funny how some people look at this and try to find everything that's wrong with it," he said. "Of course as players we try to find what's right with it. But grants have been available to Gaelic games for over 15 years, and big grants, for grounds or whatever.

"This is nothing more than say a university grant. That's the level we're on about. It's not about the players going out to buy a new Porsche. It's something that would barely take a player on holiday at the end of the year . . . But there's also the generic causes, things worked out between the GAA and the GPA, like insurance, so if they do miss work they're still paid, or even issues like babysitters, all different things where money like that can be a big help".

As one of the driving members of the GPA, McGeeney played an active role in designing the grant proposal, which would see all intercounty players entitled to a maximum of €90 a week during the season, on an expenses-incurred basis.

"Gaelic football is unique," he added, "and we want to keep it unique. Part of that argument is to keep it amateur, and I agree with that. And this is a step in that direction, to make sure there's a balance between looking after the players, and keeping the amateur ethos. So in my opinion this is a great answer towards doing that.

"I know the GAA is a popular sport. A lot of people want to play, and at a high level, and anything that can help them do that should be considered. We should make sure the GAA continues to grow and grow, and sitting with the GAA on this has encouraged me they do really care about the players, they want to move on, and do their best for them.

"So I would hope the Government come through. They've sort of indicated they will. But you wait for it to come along and then people throw out a few more obstacles in its path . . . I just hope all the work that's been done over the past number of years now hasn't gone to waste, and that the Government will keep their half of the bargain."

McGeeney is well known for his professional approach to training, and that, he added, should be promoted among all intercounty players: "Any Gaelic footballer will tell you they want to play at a professional level, without being professional. Like why can't Eoin Brosnan or Bryan Cullen not become elite athletes, just because they're working? They should still have every chance available to them, and won't turn around at 25 or 26 and decide they just can't compete at that level anymore, because there just aren't enough things there to help me do that.

"One of the biggest differences between a true professional is the rest they get, not the money . . . I never want to give the impression playing at the highest level is some kind of weight around my shoulders, because it is what I want, what I enjoy. But that still doesn't mean I don't want to compete at as high a level as I possibly can, and get the same opportunities as the Brian O'Driscoll's . . . "

McGeeney was speaking at yesterday's launch of the GPA's Opel Player of the Month awards for 2007, which will run from April to October. Former Kerry manager Jack O'Connor takes over as chairman of the football judging committee, with former Cork manager Donal O'Grady continuing on the hurling side.

[Lone Shark]

I'm not sure that's necessarily as reassuring as all that.


What I will not buy into is this logic that €2500, or €3500, or whatever, is not professionalism because it's "not much". I know it's not much, but it still is conceding the principle. We cannot allow players to be paid in exchange for playing (or "compensated for work lost") because as soon as we do there is nowhere else along the road to amalgamated intercounty teams with completely professional panels that the GAA will be able to call a halt.

I'm still not in favour of this particular set up, and I firmly believe that the Government is going to want to pull out of it for fear of comparitive claims and that the GPA will still expect the GAA to step in when the Govt. decides it doesn't want to any more. However that said, as long as these are receipted expenses compensating players for all these things that they have to pay for to play for their county, then that's fair enough.

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

I'm not sure that's necessarily as reassuring as all that.

Understand, half-full or half-empty, and the devil will be in the detail no doubt.

[AZOffaly]

Exactly LS. I've not been in this debate since I posted on the other thread, but what you are saying is my position as well. The principle, in my opinion, has been ceded. If these grants are paid, no questions asked or receipts needed, ON TOP of the existing expense system, then they are effectively a reward, or a remuneration for playing the games to a certain level.

That is the thin edge of a very dangerous wedge. If PFP ever does become an agenda item, the GAA have at the very least weakened their idealogical position by coming out in favour of this. If the GPA had negotiated a deal directly from the Government sans any GAA involvement, then at least the GAA could say it was done without our approval, and we still firmly believe that no money should be paid to amateur players above and beyond legitimate expenses.

Your doomsday scenarios are fairly radical, but are certainly on the radar I would have thought. In 20 years time, with the current direction, I am convinced that we will have 10 or 16 Senior, semi-professional, teams competing for the Sam Maguire, and probably 6 senior teams competing for the Liam McCarthy. Everybody else will be amateur, playing for the Tommy Murphy/Nicky Rackard/Dessie Farrell cup, and trying to be picked for the pro teams so they can get paid.

The Club will be the third level, and as soon as a player makes the county team, he will only play for the club when recovering from injury, or suspended from Inter-'County' games.

I picture a bastardised version of the Rugby situation in Ireland at the moment.

[fearglasmor]

I would sign up to your summary AZ and I don't understand how anyone can conclude that this is not the logical path of progression.

[dublinfella]

If people think attendences will fall because players get expenses or are even semi pro you are quite simply on a different planet.

I still dont understand the absolute certainty that payment means the county structures will collapse.

If anything big fish in small ponds will get better rewards.

[magpie seanie]

I still dont understand the absolute certainty that payment means the county structures will collapse.

With the greatest respect there seem to be a lot of basic things you don't understand. The day GAA players are paid is the beginning of the end for the GAA and a great day for soccer and other less popular sports. The main reason is that lads who are out of their houses 5 nights a week at meetings, matches, trainings etc will say - "f**k it, why am I bothering".

[Hardy]

I still dont understand the absolute certainty that payment means the county structures will collapse.

Also, this is the same argument cigarette companies used for years to resist regulation, etc. "There's no absolute certainty that smoking causes cancer". Who defined the requirement as "absolute certainty"? If there's any significant possibility that a catastrophic outcome will result from a particular circumstance, it's prudent to eliminate that circumstance.

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

If people think attendences will fall because players get expenses or are even semi pro you are quite simply on a different planet.

That's it exactly dublinfella, professionalism (fact, de facto) is a different planet insofar as the GAA is concerned.

Amateurism is the glue that holds this whole association together, and once that's contaminated the whole structure is compromised (and there are recent precendents here).

[Six Inch Nail]

I fully agree with everyone on the board who is against any form of pay for play.  However, I don't agree with the total doomsday senario expressed by some, it could happen, but it mightn't.

My major problem with all of this is that the boys at the top Dessie Farrell, Kieran McGeeney, Donal og Cusack (mouth piece), etc have done very well out of the GAA.  Don't anyone try and tell me that these boys have suffered because of their committment to the GAA.  For a start off, they have experienced joys which the rest of us can only dream about.  And off the field they are well looked after, cushy jobs, endorsements, etc (Dessie Farrell's employment is as a direct result of his playing career and also because of the very existence of the GAA). 

The problem is that the fat cats at the top table are the ones out with the begging bowl and its hard to take them seriously when they say that they are suffering some sort of hardship due to the love of their sport.  They do train hard and put in a big effort, however a mans playing career is so short it isn't nearly long enough, to spend it with a chip on your shoulder is not doing justice to themselves or the sport they have chose to play.

[dublinfella]

I still dont understand the absolute certainty that payment means the county structures will collapse.

With the greatest respect there seem to be a lot of basic things you don't understand. The day GAA players are paid is the beginning of the end for the GAA and a great day for soccer and other less popular sports. The main reason is that lads who are out of their houses 5 nights a week at meetings, matches, trainings etc will say - "f**k it, why am I bothering".

do soccer, golf, rugby, athletics, basketball players give up because the elite get a wedge? 'im not going to the driving range because tiger is a billionaire'  surely the oppprtunity to make a few quid might retain players? its as plausible

I still dont understand the absolute certainty that payment means the county structures will collapse.

Also, this is the same argument cigarette companies used for years to resist regulation, etc. "There's no absolute certainty that smoking causes cancer". Who defined the requirement as "absolute certainty"? If there's any significant possibility that a catastrophic outcome will result from a particular circumstance, it's prudent to eliminate that circumstance.

what is the catastrpohic outcome? would you honestly give the game up if one of the lads in your club got the opportunity to make a few bob? if you would you are one begrudging f**ker.