Stoops support SPADS, Sinn Fein sad and mad.

[Applesisapples]

But there cannot be a hierarchy of victims.

So tell me, Apples, do you feel that eg the two UVF members who blew themselves up in the Miami Show Band Massacre should be accorded the same "victim" status as the three band members who were murdered?

Yes

Which leads on to my next question.

Are those UVF members who managed to get through the Troubles without getting killed, injured or imprisoned also to be considered as "victims", with the same status as eg the dead Miami Showband members?

I would have thought the grief of all families are the same. I would contend that all those caught up in the troubles were victims of their circumstances and upbringing. read some of my other posts and you will see my reasoning. What I am trying to nail is this unionist view that the troubles started with the IRA in 69 or 70. As you well know our history is a little more complex and longer tthan that sort of time frame. I am not for one minute trying to justify the violence of the last century(ies), but it needs to beviewed in context and with a sence of balance. Much as I dislike the outcome of many aspects of the GFA such as the recognition of NI's status within the UK until an internal majority vote differently or the release of loyalist from jail I believe on balance it has led to a better life for my kids than the one I grew up with, and they aren't afraid to be Irish lest it annoy their unionist betters and so I acept it unpalatable bits and all. Unfortunately most unionist haven't or so it would seem.

[deiseach]

I would have thought the grief of all families are the same. I would contend that all those caught up in the troubles were victims of their circumstances and upbringing. read some of my other posts and you will see my reasoning. What I am trying to nail is this unionist view that the troubles started with the IRA in 69 or 70. As you well know our history is a little more complex and longer tthan that sort of time frame. I am not for one minute trying to justify the violence of the last century(ies), but it needs to beviewed in context and with a sence of balance. Much as I dislike the outcome of many aspects of the GFA such as the recognition of NI's status within the UK until an internal majority vote differently or the release of loyalist from jail I believe on balance it has led to a better life for my kids than the one I grew up with, and they aren't afraid to be Irish lest it annoy their unionist betters and so I acept it unpalatable bits and all. Unfortunately most unionist haven't or so it would seem.

In what way does your viewpoint that Unionism is trying to airbrush the history of the Troubles differ from the Unionist viewpoint that the never-ending cycle of inquiries into various state-sponsored killings is a Republican attempt to lay all the blame on the Brits?

[Rossfan]

I would have thought the grief of all families are the same. I would contend that all those caught up in the troubles were victims of their circumstances and upbringing. read some of my other posts and you will see my reasoning. What I am trying to nail is this unionist view that the troubles started with the IRA in 69 or 70. As you well know our history is a little more complex and longer tthan that sort of time frame. I am not for one minute trying to justify the violence of the last century(ies), but it needs to beviewed in context and with a sence of balance. Much as I dislike the outcome of many aspects of the GFA such as the recognition of NI's status within the UK until an internal majority vote differently or the release of loyalist from jail I believe on balance it has led to a better life for my kids than the one I grew up with, and they aren't afraid to be Irish lest it annoy their unionist betters and so I acept it unpalatable bits and all. Unfortunately most unionist haven't or so it would seem.

In what way does your viewpoint that Unionism is trying to airbrush the history of the Troubles differ from the Unionist viewpoint that the never-ending cycle of inquiries into various state-sponsored killings is a Republican attempt to lay all the blame on the Brits?

Nationalists/Republicans admit there were wrong things done all around.
Unionists are still wearing the blinkers that their side did nothing wrong and still seem to really want to turn the clock back to 1967.
Also killings by Provos/INLA etc and many by Loyalists were prosecuted through Courts. The same can't be said of killings by Brits/Pro Brit/Brit sponsored elements. Note how Cameron won't allow full co operation re Finucane or the Dublin/Monaghan mass murder of Irish Citizens.
The Brits could save themselves a lot of money by opening their files.
It might mean Cameron issuing more apologies but he's had good practice at it after Bloody Sunday, Hillsborough etc.

[deiseach]

In what way does your viewpoint that Unionism is trying to airbrush the history of the Troubles differ from the Unionist viewpoint that the never-ending cycle of inquiries into various state-sponsored killings is a Republican attempt to lay all the blame on the Brits?

Nationalists/Republicans admit there were wrong things done all around.
Unionists are still wearing the blinkers that their side did nothing wrong and still seem to really want to turn the clock back to 1967.
Also killings by Provos/INLA etc and many by Loyalists were prosecuted through Courts. The same can't be said of killings by Brits/Pro Brit/Brit sponsored elements. Note how Cameron won't allow full co operation re Finucane or the Dublin/Monaghan mass murder of Irish Citizens.
The Brits could save themselves a lot of money by opening their files.
It might mean Cameron issuing more apologies but he's had good practice at it after Bloody Sunday, Hillsborough etc.

Good answer, but I don't see much difference between the attitude of Cameron of apologising for everything while not doing anything to redress the situation, and the Shinner attitude of agreeing that all violence was regrettable but those who committed individual acts of violence were victims of an unjust polity. It all comes under:

[Nally Stand]

A quote from one of my earlier posts:

While one active participant in the conflict was essentially immune from prosecution (or to use their own term -  "indemnified") for their actions, then this legislation is a kick in the teeth to their victims. These are the victims which are already marginalised in a society where only IRA victims matter.

In stoop land, they say this bill does not create a hierarchy of victims. Which seems odd, when we look at the remarks made in today's Ulster Herlald by West Tyrone stoop MLA, Joe Byrne:

"The innocent victims need to be addressed, in particular the innocent victims of the Provisional IRA."

Yeah, no hierarchy there I'm sure the countless victims of british state forces/loyalists in Tyrone will be delighted to hear that one Joe. I'd say they appreciate an SDLP MLA telling the media that their needs are not as important. The SDLP really are well beneath contempt.

[Applesisapples]

I would have thought the grief of all families are the same. I would contend that all those caught up in the troubles were victims of their circumstances and upbringing. read some of my other posts and you will see my reasoning. What I am trying to nail is this unionist view that the troubles started with the IRA in 69 or 70. As you well know our history is a little more complex and longer tthan that sort of time frame. I am not for one minute trying to justify the violence of the last century(ies), but it needs to beviewed in context and with a sence of balance. Much as I dislike the outcome of many aspects of the GFA such as the recognition of NI's status within the UK until an internal majority vote differently or the release of loyalist from jail I believe on balance it has led to a better life for my kids than the one I grew up with, and they aren't afraid to be Irish lest it annoy their unionist betters and so I acept it unpalatable bits and all. Unfortunately most unionist haven't or so it would seem.

In what way does your viewpoint that Unionism is trying to airbrush the history of the Troubles differ from the Unionist viewpoint that the never-ending cycle of inquiries into various state-sponsored killings is a Republican attempt to lay all the blame on the Brits?

Both are valid, Republicans are handy with the oul airbrush too.

[ranch]

A quote from one of my earlier posts:

While one active participant in the conflict was essentially immune from prosecution (or to use their own term -  "indemnified") for their actions, then this legislation is a kick in the teeth to their victims. These are the victims which are already marginalised in a society where only IRA victims matter.

In stoop land, they say this bill does not create a hierarchy of victims. Which seems odd, when we look at the remarks made in today's Ulster Herlald by West Tyrone stoop MLA, Joe Byrne:

"The innocent victims need to be addressed, in particular the innocent victims of the Provisional IRA."

Yeah, no hierarchy there I'm sure the countless victims of british state forces/loyalists in Tyrone will be delighted to hear that one Joe. I'd say they appreciate an SDLP MLA telling the media that their needs are not as important. The SDLP really are well beneath contempt.

In SDLP land the Reavey's and the Blood Sunday families aren't victims in the same way the Travers family are.

Ridiculous.

[Maguire01]

Mairtin O'Muilleoir, Belfast's new Lord Mayor, has called it "a victory for victims".

[ranch]

Mairtin O'Muilleoir, Belfast's new Lord Mayor, has called it "a victory for victims".

And is it, in your opinion?

[Saffrongael]

Mairtin O'Muilleoir, Belfast's new Lord Mayor, has called it "a victory for victims".

What's your source for that comment ?

[Maguire01]

Mairtin O'Muilleoir, Belfast's new Lord Mayor, has called it "a victory for victims".

And is it, in your opinion?

For some victims anyway.

[Maguire01]

Mairtin O'Muilleoir, Belfast's new Lord Mayor, has called it "a victory for victims".

What's your source for that comment ?

http://www.u.tv/utvplayer/video/151858/126247

[Nally Stand]

Mairtin O'Muilleoir, Belfast's new Lord Mayor, has called it "a victory for victims".

And is it, in your opinion?

For some victims anyway.

You're practically abstaining!

[ranch]

Mairtin O'Muilleoir, Belfast's new Lord Mayor, has called it "a victory for victims".

And is it, in your opinion?

For some victims anyway.

I fail to see how.

[Nally Stand]

"Your report did not say it's a victory for victims and I think that's true. I think it's a bill which will not advance the cause of peace"

A victory for victims... Aye right.