Bailing Out The Farmers.... What's Different?

[lawnseed]

firstly not all farmers are in receipt of subsidies. secondly the guys who do recieve single farm payment only handle the money. they simply couldnt have any money left over when the bills are paid. so in effect its the processers who get the farmers money...  they will tell you that the supermarkets screw them... them the supermarkets will tell you how competative the market is and how the house wife screws them! (which we know is a lie) so unless the farmers margin can be increased somehow he needs a leg up, otherwise he'll have to quit and there'll be nothing to eat.
   so in effect we are paying more for our food but the cost is hidden and then out of that subsidy comes the cost of administration and its more than the farmer gets.unless we embrace full-on market conditions with all the gluts and scarcities and the boom bust that will come with that sceneario. we are stuck with pumping money into the system thats hoovered up by supermarkets and administration. heres an interesting stat. for every £7 that is spent in the uk £1 pound of it is spent in tesco. how do you fight with a monster like that?

[bogball88]

One wonders just how quickly some farmers were in bringing livestock indoors or lower down away from the worst of the snow that fell. While the amount was very heavy, it wasn't levels that haven't been seen in recent times and there was reasonable warning that higher ground areas were going to be hit with a lot of snow around 24 hours in advance. Arguably the time of year close to lambing caught some off guard, but how many were negligent either deliberately or passively? The rumours I heard (and if very wrong deserve to be shot down) was that many of the hill farmers in the Antrim Glens didn't take much if any action whereas most of those in the Mournes and Sperrins were quicker to react and as a result suffered less livestock loss.
IMO the Dept. Agriculture should have offered to cover the cost of the disposal of dead stock by waiving the normal fee, but no more unless there was an exceptional circumstance on a case by case basis.

Fionntamnach, I would say you would know a lot about taking animals down from the mountains, a couple of hours should take them down from the top of the sperrins, mournes or the glens and have them housed no bother, eh?

[deiseach]

the supermarkets will tell you how competative the market is and how the house wife screws them! (which we know is a lie)

You sound bitter.

[bogball88]

One wonders just how quickly some farmers were in bringing livestock indoors or lower down away from the worst of the snow that fell. While the amount was very heavy, it wasn't levels that haven't been seen in recent times and there was reasonable warning that higher ground areas were going to be hit with a lot of snow around 24 hours in advance. Arguably the time of year close to lambing caught some off guard, but how many were negligent either deliberately or passively? The rumours I heard (and if very wrong deserve to be shot down) was that many of the hill farmers in the Antrim Glens didn't take much if any action whereas most of those in the Mournes and Sperrins were quicker to react and as a result suffered less livestock loss.
IMO the Dept. Agriculture should have offered to cover the cost of the disposal of dead stock by waiving the normal fee, but no more unless there was an exceptional circumstance on a case by case basis.

Fionntamnach, I would say you would know a lot about taking animals down from the mountains, a couple of hours should take them down from the top of the sperrins, mournes or the glens and have them housed no bother, eh?

Depends on a number of factors. But I'm only going by what others with far more knowledge and experience than myself have been talking about.

So basically what you are saying is that your basing your arguements on rumours and what somebody else was talking about? 
Come on Fionntamhnach, you are so much better than that

[Rois]

While the amount was very heavy, it wasn't levels that haven't been seen in recent times and there was reasonable warning that higher ground areas were going to be hit with a lot of snow around 24 hours in advance.

I'd disagree there, the consistency of this snow (strange as it sounds) was a lot different than we've had in other recent years - I compared it to the snow in a ski resort that packs so heavily that it can build up quickly and withstand days of sunshine before it materially shifts.  Losses may have been significantly less had the snow melted quicker but in my very unlearned opinion, the density of the snow made that far from possible. 

[Stall the Bailer]

Taking livestock down from high ground is ok if you have low ground to move them too, not all farmers do.

It's not often that there is snow in Ireland that causes buildings to collapse, but many did this time.

You would think having your stock inside would be safe for them, well not with the snow this time. Farmers didn't have too many options here.

[trileacman]

One wonders just how quickly some farmers were in bringing livestock indoors or lower down away from the worst of the snow that fell. While the amount was very heavy, it wasn't levels that haven't been seen in recent times and there was reasonable warning that higher ground areas were going to be hit with a lot of snow around 24 hours in advance. Arguably the time of year close to lambing caught some off guard, but how many were negligent either deliberately or passively? The rumours I heard (and if very wrong deserve to be shot down) was that many of the hill farmers in the Antrim Glens didn't take much if any action whereas most of those in the Mournes and Sperrins were quicker to react and as a result suffered less livestock loss.
IMO the Dept. Agriculture should have offered to cover the cost of the disposal of dead stock by waiving the normal fee, but no more unless there was an exceptional circumstance on a case by case basis.

Fionntamnach, I would say you would know a lot about taking animals down from the mountains, a couple of hours should take them down from the top of the sperrins, mournes or the glens and have them housed no bother, eh?

Depends on a number of factors. But I'm only going by what others with far more knowledge and experience than myself have been talking about.

So basically what you are saying is that your basing your arguements on rumours and what somebody else was talking about? 
Come on Fionntamhnach, you are so much better than that

As I said originally, if there's evidence to suggest that what I've been reliably informed can be easily shot to pieces, I'm willing to listen.

1. The farmers probably didn't have lowland ground to move them too.
2. The farmer's shed's I'd say were already full, we don't have acres of roofed construction lying empty for the craic of it.
3. Some of these herds could be 2000 strong roaming over several hundred acres. If you can explain the logistics of herding and moving them at short notice I'll listen. The labour alone involved is a problem, what do they do, take their sons of of school or work?
4. Having moved several hundred sheep into shed how do you intend to feed them? Given that by mid March your fodder supplies are, as you expected, nearly exhausted where do you get the surplus?

[deiseach]

So basically what you are saying is that your basing your arguements on rumours and what somebody else was talking about? 
Come on Fionntamhnach, you are so much better than that

As I said originally, if there's evidence to suggest that what I've been reliably informed can be easily shot to pieces, I'm willing to listen.

Given your usually robust line of reasoning, I must confess to being surprised at the tone of your argument here, particularly this latest bit. You've heard that some farmers are blagging it, and it's up to others to demonstrate that no one is blagging it?

[Tony Baloney]

So basically what you are saying is that your basing your arguements on rumours and what somebody else was talking about? 
Come on Fionntamhnach, you are so much better than that

As I said originally, if there's evidence to suggest that what I've been reliably informed can be easily shot to pieces, I'm willing to listen.

Given your usually robust line of reasoning, I must confess to being surprised at the tone of your argument here, particularly this latest bit. You've heard that some farmers are blagging it, and it's up to others to demonstrate that no one is blagging it?

I guess I should revisit my original post on this thread. When I said "many" farmers in the Glens, I should have said "some". Have I concrete proof of what I've been told (personally I've no reason not to believe them, but that's not a firm footing for debate) well the answer is no. To disprove it is also near impossible. However my experience is that a small minority of ALL farmers do try and rip the piss out of public assistance and subsidies to them and that the £5 million costs over this has an element of political manoeuvring attached to it. Not as much as the farce that was the fine the Assembly was hit with by the EU over the overpayment of Single Farm Payments and the then minister claiming that no-one was really to blame, but the roots in both cases are not entirely separate from each other IMO. In the end this is hurting the big majority of honest farmers who stick to the rules and take a lot of pride not only in their vocation but also the surrounding countryside and environment. The current SFP subsidies are not really the problem. Indeed without them many small farmers would give it up because without it it's not enough to make a living off not to mention that their expertise of keeping local land in good shape is important lest it were abandoned along with countryside depopulation. But it is these kind of financial interventions that can allow some farmers - especially the less honest ones - to think that any major loss that hits them will be reimbursed from the public purse which allows complacency to set in. To me it is certainly worthwhile to ask as to why such an element of the industry gets such backing whereas if your business premises in a town or your home gets flooded you only get asked "Did you have insurance?" and tough luck if you didn't. Rois' answer I believe has been the best so far.