Alliance showing their true colours now

[Milltown Row2]

While the top end is mostly Catholic schools out performing the rest there are plenty of Catholic schools lying at the bottom. With the Irish speaking school not doing well at all.

The amount of schools in West Belfast doing shit doesn't bode well, North Belfast not far off it also

[Maguire01]

All this talk of religion in schools is nonsense, all schools teach the same curricula, including RE.

So why do we need different sectors then?

Some of us like the choice of not having our children educated as homogeneous Nornern Irish Brits.

Is that what happens in our local universities and FE colleges?

Anyway, as the argument goes, a United Ireland would not simply be a takeover by the 26 counties - similarly a proper state sector would reflect the diverse background of its pupils.

FE and HE are not compulsory and will normally have an ethos centred on learning and scholarly study. Very different from primary and secondary education.

Eh? Should primary and secondary schools not have an ethos of learning and study, what with them being in the business of education? I can't see your argument for segregated education between the ages of 5 and 16/18, if there's no valid reason for continuing segregation thereafter. (Unless you believe we should have faith-based FE and HE institutions too?)

Of course they should but primary and secondary schools are about much more than learning and study. They have children at their formative years, all our children, and as such are hugely character forming particularly in how they deal with things like civic responsibility, self-worth, respect for  others in the community, pastoral care, professional growth, the less fortunate, the arts, sports etc... These are rarely central planks of HE and FE here though arguably the liberal arts colleges in the US would place greater importance on these. HE and FE here are businesses concerned with delivering very specific courses of study which no one has to attend. Two very important differences with primary and secondary.

I can't see your argument for segregated education between the ages of 5 and 16/18

I can't see it myself, though that shouldn't be strange because nowhere have I ever argued for segregated education at any age.

Well you appear to be arguing for the status quo, unless i've missed something. And the status quo is segregated.

[Maguire01]

My point wasn't primarily related to cost - although the different sectors in NI has led to under-capacity in many schools, where one area is served by several schools in different sectors, and as such, is hardly efficient. You might have a faith school paying its way, but forcing a state school to run at significant financial cost.

The key issue here is the continued segregation of children in a segregated society. Weighing up the impact on wider society, i'm not convinced that parental choice is an adequate reason to maintain the status quo. I'm also not convinced that current parental choices would be the same if a proper inclusive state sector was established.

If the state does not provide the possibility for proper integrated schools where national cultural identity/language/history/ sports/music is a part of the experience, then why should a nationalist family even contemplate sending their children to anything other than the nearest catholic primary/secondary school?
The current state education model is a dead duck for a 'desegregation' of education.
Desegregation cannot be forced and especially where no proper desegregated model exists.
If the state wants to expand the existing integrated school model, then let them establish more integrated schools in areas where there are none. Or deconstruct an existing state school and transform it into an integrated model. Afaia the integrated schools are popular and oversubscribed.

Agreed that it's not simply a matter of adopting the current state sector - the education system should reflect all its pupils - i.e. Irish taught, rugby taught, GAA taught. And yes, there's no point in forcing it when that model doesn't exist. But if there was a political will, a model could be developed - then there'd be no need for an 'integrated' sector at all.

[Ulick]

u appear to be arguing for the status quo, unless i've missed something. And the status quo is segregated.

I want the choice to send my children to a school that accepts, respects and reflects my values and culture - that is very unlikely to be the Alliance version of "integrated" education, which is as I said all about homogeneous little Northern Irish Brits. I couldn't care less about the religious ethos of the school though my preference would be that it's completely secular.

[Main Street]

How is it in the North's catholic secondary schools, is religious education a compulsory subject? or just advisable - otherwise you'll be flogged?  do you have ... exams ...  in RE?

I went to a catholic DLS secondary school in Dublin in the early '70's, maybe there were 2 or 3 of the brethren as teachers out of 30. The only concession to catholicism was a weekly Relig educ class. I found out to my surprise that I could bunk it, they couldn't force me if I didn't want to sit in that class, there was no fuss about my choice.
The RE was dropped completely from the school curriculum in or around our 2nd  or 3rd year. Afair, that was the last trace of catholicism.
Apart from the presence of 2 of the brothers, who were the ones who gave all their spare time to the football teams.

[trileacman]

Who gives a fcuk?
As long as all the Gaels in Gaelic Ireland are talking about the Gaelic language in the best of Gaelic tongue in everyday Gaelic life.

As long as all young Gaels accept that their name is Jams O'Donnell and that they shall be beaten on their first day of school if they don't understand this Gaelic fact.

You, obviously.

[Eamonnca1]

"forced" integrated schooling is a bit suspect as all social engineering of this sort is, when other places are proposing to increase parental choice rather than reduce it. Because of the segregated geography, you'd still have very unbalanced schools unless you engaged in busing. What would you have to do make Clonalig school give the appearance of balance?  In reality, the PUL side of the house don't have the confidence to engage in this,unless it is fake, which makes sense as their case is not one that can be exposed to reason. I'd also see a bit of adverse comment that nationalists could simply head along to the local Gaelscoil, and you'd have fake Ulster Scots schools starting up.

All education is "social engineering" if you want to use that term. And yes, a bit of busing would probably be necessary, but in a lot of areas it wouldn't be much different from the distance they're already traveling.

[Eamonnca1]

My point wasn't primarily related to cost - although the different sectors in NI has led to under-capacity in many schools, where one area is served by several schools in different sectors, and as such, is hardly efficient. You might have a faith school paying its way, but forcing a state school to run at significant financial cost.

The key issue here is the continued segregation of children in a segregated society. Weighing up the impact on wider society, i'm not convinced that parental choice is an adequate reason to maintain the status quo. I'm also not convinced that current parental choices would be the same if a proper inclusive state sector was established.

If the state does not provide the possibility for proper integrated schools where national cultural identity/language/history/ sports/music is a part of the experience, then why should a nationalist family even contemplate sending their children to anything other than the nearest catholic primary/secondary school?
The current state education model is a dead duck for a 'desegregation' of education.
Desegregation cannot be forced and especially where no proper desegregated model exists.
If the state wants to expand the existing integrated school model, then let them establish more integrated schools in areas where there are none. Or deconstruct an existing state school and transform it into an integrated model. Afaia the integrated schools are popular and oversubscribed.

On the cost thing, is it a big issue? or just an issue in some situations? is the motivation to desegregate education a cost thing or is it a social issue?  Did Belfast City Council sit down and decide the flag flying policy based on 'best cost scenario' or 'best progressive policy decision we can make, that also gives us the least worst cost scenario in policing costs?

Peter Robinson said as much last year. He said he'd like to see the state sector made more friendly to Catholics and the nationalist ethos so that it can become more integrated, he acknowledged that in its present form it's not suitable for being truly integrated. Unfortunately that message was lost when SF and the SDLP pounced on him for saying things about the Catholic education sector that made them cry.

[armaghniac]

but in a lot of areas it wouldn't be much different from the distance they're already traveling.

What about the other areas?

[michaelg]

u appear to be arguing for the status quo, unless i've missed something. And the status quo is segregated.

I want the choice to send my children to a school that accepts, respects and reflects my values and culture - that is very unlikely to be the Alliance version of "integrated" education, which is as I said all about homogeneous little Northern Irish Brits. I couldn't care less about the religious ethos of the school though my preference would be that it's completely secular.

Presumably then you are happy for Catholic maintained school to continue to produce homogeneous little Irish Gaels who are likely to have little or no interaction with young Protestants until the age of 16 or 18?

[armaghniac]

Presumably then you are happy for Catholic maintained school to continue to produce homogeneous little Irish Gaels who are likely to have little or no interaction with young Protestants until the age of 16 or 18?

Since he expressed a preference for secular schools, presumably he is not particularly concerned with the Catholic maintained sector, but prefers all schools to produce people who are responsible citizens of Ireland with respect for its culture and traditions.

[Milltown Row2]

Presumably then you are happy for Catholic maintained school to continue to produce homogeneous little Irish Gaels who are likely to have little or no interaction with young Protestants until the age of 16 or 18?

Since he expressed a preference for secular schools, presumably he is not particularly concerned with the Catholic maintained sector, but prefers all schools to produce people who are responsible citizens of Ireland with respect for its culture and traditions.

Is that also respecting peoples culture and traditions who we don't like also?

[Main Street]

Presumably then you are happy for Catholic maintained school to continue to produce homogeneous little Irish Gaels who are likely to have little or no interaction with young Protestants until the age of 16 or 18?

Since he expressed a preference for secular schools, presumably he is not particularly concerned with the Catholic maintained sector, but prefers all schools to produce people who are responsible citizens of Ireland with respect for its culture and traditions.

Is that also respecting peoples culture and traditions who we don't like also?

You can't beat two nordies having a presumptive conversation in the absence of the appropriate person.

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

How is it in the North's catholic secondary schools, is religious education a compulsory subject? or just advisable - otherwise you'll be flogged?  do you have ... exams ...  in RE?

I went to a catholic DLS secondary school in Dublin in the early '70's, maybe there were 2 or 3 of the brethren as teachers out of 30. The only concession to catholicism was a weekly Relig educ class. I found out to my surprise that I could bunk it, they couldn't force me if I didn't want to sit in that class, there was no fuss about my choice.
The RE was dropped completely from the school curriculum in or around our 2nd  or 3rd year. Afair, that was the last trace of catholicism.
Apart from the presence of 2 of the brothers, who were the ones who gave all their spare time to the football teams.

Ya f**k all religion was taught in the Catholic run school I went too, Football (Gaelic) and Basketball were the true religion of the school. Have to say I think it was a good school, religion was mostly a private affair apart from the spedi-Gonalez prayer before some classes, so fast you were hardly full stood up before you were starting to sit down again. From talking to people who went to Catholic schools in the North and in Britain, it seems ye did religion as if it was important, f**k that for shit. I'm glad the brothers in ours prioritised things that mattered like education, sport and good citizenship.

[Farrandeelin]

Eating meat/ or not eating meat on Friday was a practice or tradition, an act of self sacrifice, in much the same way as abstaining at Lent still is, and not an obligation attracting a sinful default. 

They lied to me about that as well, then. It was one of the six "commandments of the church", as I remember it, which were a sort of local set of bye-laws appended to Moses's stone tablets. Breach had to be confessed in the dark box and it was a venial sin.

As for purgatory and limbo, I think they were just surreptitiously swept away when no one was looking, but without making any provision whatever for the millions of souls languishing there for, among other things ... see meat above.

And ne temere has been replaced by something a little less brazen and arrogant.

I always thought there were seven.