Lack of joined-up thinking in the GAA

[Eamonnca1]

Here's a gripe I've had for a while. 

We look at the AI championships in isolation and ask what we can do to improve it.  (Ask 20 people what they think the format should be and you get 20 different answers.)

We look at the league in isolation and ask what we can do to generate a bit of interest in it.

We look at the Railway Cup in isolation and have an annual debate about whether or not to scrap it.

Then the county boards complain that there's not enough time to complete their club competitions. 

And now apparently there's another conflict over players on college teams getting pulled in multiple directions by county team commitments.

Then you have the various age-specific competitions such as Minor and U21, and brings in whole new layers of conflict with players being pulled in all directions.

And we wonder why players get burned out?  There's more to solving that problem than an unenforceable ban on training for a whole month, that's just addressing the symptoms of the problem rather than the cause.

Is it not time we backed up a bit and looked at the total number of games players are expected to play, and from that work out a realistic way of scheduling these competitions?  If the national leagues are worth keeping, then can they not be scaled back a bit to make a bit of room in the schedule for club and college competitions?  If you increase the number of divisions in the league, that'd mean smaller divisions and hence fewer games.  Fewer games means each game that is played has a bit more at stake, more at stake could mean larger crowds and a better atmosphere.  Say, for example, you add one more division to the NFL, depending on how you slice it that'd reduce the number of league games from 120 to 67.  Instead of 28 to 36 games in each division you'd have 15 to 21 games in each division.  Instead of 8 or 9 teams in each division you'd have 6 or 7.  So if you're in 4th place, instead of being 3 places away from the relegation zone you're only 1 place away from it.  If you're in 5th place, instead of being 2 places away from the relegation zone you're just inside it. 

With more at stake in each game you might actually get bigger attendances and come out ahead in the end.  Then there'd be plenty of room for club competitions.

Do we really need separate U18 and U21 competitions?  I'm not entirely sure what the purpose of the U21 competition is, I always thought that U18 was the gateway to senior. 

Then there's the menagerie of off-season cup competitions.  Do we really need them all?  It seems like every day I learn of a new GAA competition where there's a cup named after someone and the results of the latest game are announced on the GAA's website, but there's no explanation as to what this competition is. That's why I ended up starting this page on wikipedia to keep track. Look at competitions like the Tommy Murphy Cup, started with the best of intentions but ended up being scrapped.  It seems like people think that the answer to all of our problems is more competitions and more games, but we end up with "competition inflation" where there's so many competitions going on that even a die-hard GAA fan would have a hard time keeping track.  The thinking seems to be that if you want to generate interest in the game, you buy a cup, put someone's name on it, get county boards to sign up to compete for it, and the supporters will follow.  Doesn't seem to work like that.  Maybe less is more.

I think there's a limited number of games that there's a market for, and for spectators to go in large numbers there has to be something meaningful at stake.  The AI championship and the National Leagues have a long history, it means something to the spectators, shouldn't that be where the effort is concentrated for high profile games? 

For non-elite players who want to participate, there doesn't seem to be any shortage of games in the club competitions.  So surely it would make sense to free up room in the schedule so that these competitions can be completed when they're supposed to.

That's my theory anyway.  I have a lot of theories...

[theticklemister]

Valid points.

I would keep the pre-season competitions however. It is the only real time managers can experiment in meaningful games with new recruits. Try and experiment in the league and before ye know it yer down two games and promotion is gone. I would like to know my 20 before the league starts.

Look at the NHL, they only get five league games in the divisions. How can ye prepare for cship with 5 league games. It should be kept to seven. Maybe play the football leagues over a shorter time frame and sack this two weeks break craic.

[Eamonnca1]

True, but let's not forget that players are a limited resource.  By all means give inter-county managers a bit of room for experiment, but do they really need full-blown off-season competitions for this and do we need to have so many of them?  The thing about the clubs is they have a mixture of county players and non-county players, so every date with an inter-county game on the schedule is a date on which that club team can't play (or can play, but at a disadvantage).

[prewtna]

a good topic.

The likes of the FBD competitions etc - no need for them at all. See Mayo's apparent disdain for said competition when they failed to travel to NYC for the final despite knowing for months when and where it was to be played.

I have no great issue with the current inter-county championship format. If you are good enough you will win it, if not, generally you wont.

For counties who are sucessful in it (and to be honest this would apply irrespective of the actual structure of the senior inter-county championship), the clubs are left in the mire.

we just played our last league of the season last weekend here in mayo and division 1A will play theirs this weekend. The county board blames the Mayo team for getting to latter stages of the national league and then of course the All-Ireland in September for this insanity. They reckon no-one else can kick a ball while this goes on.

There is a debate going on here at the moment because basically the 1000 or so club players (like myself) were left twiddling our thumbs for the guts of 8 weeks during the summer where there was no game for us to play while Mayo went about their championship business. Sher why would we want to be playing in the summer? When the ball is dry, the ground is firm and the sun (might if we are lucky) be shining. We love playing on bad pitches, in pur gutter & shite in october, november and december.

The fact remains, inter-county players are a very small minority in the playing population of the GAA (yes i know they are the big financial draw before you say it). But why do club players have to sit on our arses while they play train etc during the summer? If the clubs really are the bedrock of the GAA, like we are led to believe, then the powers that be (the only ones getting paid within our organisation), need to really grasp this nettle.

[Bingo]

The fact remains, inter-county players are a very small minority in the playing population of the GAA (yes i know they are the big financial draw before you say it). But why do club players have to sit on our arses while they play train etc during the summer? If the clubs really are the bedrock of the GAA, like we are led to believe, then the powers that be (the only ones getting paid within our organisation), need to really grasp this nettle.

I think this is a very easy thing to say but its actually a false statement when you look behind it.
A club itself gets no financial benefit from the financial draw of a county team or if they have players on it. They have an increase in profile if they have county players but its up to them if they benefit from that.
A county itself will get no financial benefit from the county team, yes they will receive money for it - share of gate, grants, sponsorship, fundraising etc  - but this and more will be spent on the county teams.
In a county like mine, Monaghan, it is actually the clubs who prop up the county finances through the club championships. The income from these games will make or break the county finances for the year plus the clubs pay their affliation fees and insurance.

Maybe in the larger counties this isn't the case, say Dublin as an obvious one. In smaller counties you'll have more people following club teams that following the county unless the team goes on a bit of run and is playing higher profile eg Division 1.

Is the county more dependent on the clubs that they'd like to think?

[Bingo]

Also the GAA Intercounty season is top loaded:

Take Ulster, Preseason Competition - 3 games in a group format.

Next competition to build up to the big one - 7 games in league format, main purpose is to avoid relegation. Knockout stages are considered worthless by players and supporters alike at this stage.

The big one - Knockout - 1 game and you could be out.

Backdoor - Knockout - 1 game and you could be out. Players indifferent to it from majority of counties and will head off for summer.

[trileacman]

The whole GAA calender is a mess. It really needs redesigning from scratch at practically every level. But that'll never happen for a whole variety of shitty reasons. So we'll go on complaining about shite fixturing ad infinitum.

Yeah but we'd have too tear the shit out of the current status quo. For example neither rugby or soccer provide examples were a player can be playing club u-21, club football, county u-21, county football, college football and then individually train for each team for 6 month of the year. International rugby players are exempt from club matches at certain times of the year and international training consists of about two 6-week windows during a typical calender year. International soccer lads have about a cumulative 4 weeks training and a shower of matches they just fly in for and then f**k off again. Squad rotation is also commonplace in the leagues/ FA cup/ league cup/europa league. Your best players won't be playing everyone of those games when available. I'd love to see the stats that read how many matches Colm Cooper, Sean Cavanagh, James McCarthy, Patrick McBearty or Eoin Cadogan play each year for different sides.

[ck]

Can anyone give me a GOOD reason why there are U.21 competitions?

[Bingo]

Can anyone give me a GOOD reason why there are U.21 competitions?

Tradition - a very relevant reason behind alot of GAA's thinking.

Its not good in my eyes but is reason enough in alot of decision-making.

[rosnarun]

u 21 competions
most importantly they are great competitions in their own right with some of the best football played for the year in them.
for most of the players playing that will be the highlight of their career and if not for the under 21's would have packed in serious football at at 18 and those that dont it gives them a year or twos extra top level training conditioning to ensure they are primed to be ready to give the seniors a shot and /or be a great addtion to there own club team.
for Guys who did not make the minor team its a chance  make a mark and out them selves in contention for  a senior place.
But mainly id stick with my 1st point they are just great competitions

[Captain Obvious]

Can anyone give me a GOOD reason why there are U.21 competitions?

You have better chance to become senior player by performing well at U21 level. It's always second guessing with minors some of them aren't able perform at U21 level.

[Zulu]

The whole things to be redone and hard decisions need to be made. Some players are playing too much, and for too many teams, while the majority are playing too little. The first thing to do is to establish a clear senior IC season where every game is important. Then scrap multiple team representation at IC level, you can play with one IC team in one code. Once you have that you could, theoretically, play IC minor, u21, senior hurling and football games on the same day. So, even if you guarantee all those players 12 games, there is no reason the whole IC season couldn't be played in 5 months, leaving 7 months for the club scene.

[Rossfan]

To paraphrase what  Zulu says - the talented 16 to 21 year old plays for and trains with multiple teams and is in serious danger of burn out or permanent injury while the average player gets a few games here and there depending on how County teams are doing, or who might or might not be available.
Obviously reducing the number of teams a player can play for would be a start but I can hear it already -- " Sure we couldn't field at all only for the 17 year olds".
Bad enough being eligible to play for a scatter of teams but then you have dictatorial managers " I want 100% attendance at ALL training sessions" - so the chap that's in 3rd level in Dublin plays a game with them on Wednesday but his Adult club trainer and his County U21 trainer wants him to train that night with them or else "you're off the panel".
Hopefully Eugene McGee's FRC will have some recommendations to address some of the problems.
How about not allowing Minors ( esp if they go to U17) play in adult Club Championships for a start?
How about Club leagues go ahead with or wothout Co players?
How about co managers being given a list of dates they can use players and outside that they be available for club games?

[Eamonnca1]

Great suggestions, Ross.  The only problem I can see is with the one where club leagues go ahead with or without county players, you'll get the argument that this punishes clubs who have nurtured the talent that became good enough to play inter-county.  But a shorter inter-county season would make this less of an issue.

[Rossfan]

Can anyone remember who won the Leagues in ther County in 2011?
Or indeed who can name the last 5 winners of the NFL?
The problem is compounded by the length of time it takes to play the IC Championships.
May to September - 22 weekends to play 61 or so games in the Senior!!!
7 weeks between the AI Qtr Finals and the AIF !! to play 3 games.
Surely the Provincials could be all finished by the end of June , Qtr Finals last weekend in July, Both Semis the same weekend in Mid August - 1 Sat, 1 Sunday- Final 1st Sunday in September.
All Co finals to be over by last Sunday in September
A I Club championships to finish in Calendar year.