Rugby - what's the attraction?

[Hardy]

As an example how many top level rugby games are decided simply by a referees mistake? How many end in hollers of abuse where he has to be escorted of the field or threatened?

I can only think of two such examples, Munster several years ago in the Heineken Cup and NZ v France in 2007, even then the action the referee missed was minimal at best.

I would suggest that rugby doesn't appear as prone to refereeing mistakes as Gaelic games or soccer because games are rarely level going down the stretch. It feels more devastating when the match turns on a refereeing decision in those circumstances. But when you consider the abuse Alain Rolland got for making the right decision in the Wales-France semi-final last year, this idea that rugby is free of referees deciding matches is fanciful.

Agreed. And it's not limited to questions of competence. Look at the World Cup Final. No way were France ever going to get a scorable penalty in the second half.

I disagree with trileacman that rugby is a shining light in sports administration and rule making. There are plenty examples of shortcomings in laws and practices - the scrum, discriminatory administration at the World Cup, inconsistency between regions in application/interpretation of the laws are some that come to mind.

But while holding rugby forth as a paragon doesn't stand up to scrutiny, I agree that we could learn some things from rugby administration and law-making as well. The respect for referees is probably the biggest one. It doesn't happen by accident or because the players are nice middle-class chaps. It happens because it's in the rules and enforced. As trileacman says as well, they are probably that bit better than us in ability to identify and willingness to tackle flaws in the laws that promote undesirable aspects of the game, such as the "professional" foul, with meaningful sanctions and we could learn frrom that.

I didn't say that rugby "is a shining light in sports administration and rule making", I said they are ahead of the game when compared to soccer or rugby. If you disagree with that then say so, don't disagree with something I didn't say.

A fair cop - apologies. I over-interpreted your regard for rugby's performancein these regards. In fact we seem to have roughly the same opinion.

[GalwayBayBoy]

Despite coming for a Gaelic football background I always enjoyed watching rugby growing up and still love to watch it today. There is something about the physical collisions and physical intensity in rugby that stirs something primal. People have always been drawn to watching people engage in physical conflict whether it be in ancient Rome or the Olympics or two fellas beating each other up in the boxing ring or the cage. Plus it takes a certain amount of skill to transfer a ball down a field when you can't pass it forward.

Why people like certain sports and not others is a bit of as mystery. I know hurling people in south Galway who are passionate hurling supporters but they wouldn't even open their curtains to watch a game of Gaelic football in their front garden. It's just not the game they were raised with.

[Dinny Breen]

What excites you about the game?

This purely from a spectator point of view. So many but here are a few...

1. The physicality. The tackle is a thing of beauty, be it a straight up hit, a chop at the legs, an ankle tap or a mad scramble to catch a guy from behind.

2. The ruck - an out and out fight for possession, just body against body.

3. The scrum - watch your scrum demolish the opposition - almost primal like.

4. Watching someone like Rob Kearney catch an up and under know that 9/10 he will get hit and hit hard when he comes down, technically brilliant and fearless at the same time.

5. A lot pop pass out of the tackle, an O'Driscoll speciality.

6. There is 2 mins left in a game and a team is losing by 2 points, watching a team like Munster in those minutes is fantastic, it is symbiosis like, they have a single goal, they all know their role, they work through the phases and bang someone like O'Gara drops a goal, sport at it's brilliant best.

what is it about rugby that sets it apart from other games?

Team work and how the skills are so specific for different positions. The generic skill base is a lot narrower in rugby than say soccer.

and mostly, what would make you attend a game?

Same reason why I would attend a Round Towers minor match, a Kildare championship match or a u17 rugby match I love live sport, the thrill of a great score regardless of the level, the smart comments, getting one over a friend who is a rival coach, watching a young lad who have coached playing rep sport and feeling pride inside knowing that you helped a tidy bit in helping him fufill his talent.

Sport is fantastic, it takes up an awful lot of my life as am I sure it does many here. I personally can't understand why anyone would diss any sport, for me not been able to appreciate team or individual sport at any level is quite simply an alien concept.

[Hardy]

Hardy, would you not agree that the reason that rugby have got the referee issue right is because it's a very 'new' sport in terms of mass participation - imagine trying to effect the same change in gaelic football, hurling or soccer now; it might have been possible 80 years ago (which, in my view, would be the equivalent to rugby's initiative), but it would be nigh on impossible nowadays.

This is a truly bizarre post.

I'd guess there were more people playing rugby in London 80 years ago than are playing hurling now.

It's very easy to stamp out cheating and stamp out hounding of referees: punish the offenders. But it's not a culture that exists in soccer, and football is following suit.

I don't agree, Billy. While I don't think yours is a bizarre suggestion, as I see where you're coming from, I agree with wobbler that it's not that difficult to frame the laws as needed and enforce them as required to change the current culture of disrespect for referees.

The GAA legislators have managed to force through many changes that most would have seen as contrary to the ethos and traditions of football - many to its detriment. Look at the almost complete removal of physicality from the game (and the consequent prospering of cheating because it becomes easier and easier to feign being fouled). And the hiving off of millions annually for direct payments to players. These things happened despite the wishes of the majority of members, so I don't see the difficulty of introducing laws to implement a positive change in the culture of the game that would likely be supported by the majority of members.

[Dinny Breen]

I like the fact that when I go to a rugby game I don't have to listen to mouths ganching at the referee ALL THE TIME, and I have yet to hear Rugby supporters call a rival player a gypsy or a tr**p.

That might be the perception but rugby supporters at local club level are no better or worse than GAA or soccer supporter. Players get abuse the ref gets abuse, in provincial grounds generally the guy who comes to the local rugby match is the same guy who goes the GAA match and shouts the same abuse. However in Leinster the Branch issues guidelines and if the referee reports abuse in his match report the clubs get sanctioned, only 2 years ago Longford rugby club lost home advantage for their 1st two league games.

[Nally Stand]

A good game of rugby is ok but its generally over hyped. Rugby league is a more exciting game.

Soccer on the other hand....now there's a cure for insomnia.

[Declan]

Sport is fantastic, it takes up an awful lot of my life as am I sure it does many here. I personally can't understand why anyone would diss any sport, for me not been able to appreciate team or individual sport at any level is quite simply an alien concept.

+1

[Hardy]

I like the fact that when I go to a rugby game I don't have to listen to mouths ganching at the referee ALL THE TIME, and I have yet to hear Rugby supporters call a rival player a gypsy or a tr**p.

That might be the perception but rugby supporters at local club level are no better or worse than GAA or soccer supporter. Players get abuse the ref gets abuse, in provincial grounds generally the guy who comes to the local rugby match is the same guy who goes the GAA match and shouts the same abuse. However in Leinster the Branch issues guidelines and if the referee reports abuse in his match report the clubs get sanctioned, only 2 years ago Longford rugby club lost home advantage for their 1st two league games.

Exactly. And again, what's the relevant point? Rules (laws) and their enforcement. A healthy culture informs the rules but also proceeds from them. It's not even bicycle science, never mind about rockets.

[GalwayBayBoy]

A good game of rugby is ok but its generally over hyped. Rugby league is a more exciting game.

I find rugby league a bit too repetitive. You know you are going to get 5 tackles and a kick every time. Union just has more variety.

[Hardy]

I like Rugby Union a lot but, for reasons I struggle to understand, I can't abide the League version. It might be that they go so far to eliminate the stop-start shortcomings of Union that they create something artificial. Counting tackles. The back-heel thing that I find ludicrous. (But why? Is it more ludicrous than a scrum?) And it doesn't seem to accommodate the breadth of skills, or of physiques, that Union does. It seems like a makey-uppey thing to me. But maybe I was hopelessly prejudiced by years of Eddie-Waring-polluted Saturday afternoons that seemed like a bizarre mixture of Last Of The Summer Wine and bad sport.

[Billys Boots]

Hardy, would you not agree that the reason that rugby have got the referee issue right is because it's a very 'new' sport in terms of mass participation - imagine trying to effect the same change in gaelic football, hurling or soccer now; it might have been possible 80 years ago (which, in my view, would be the equivalent to rugby's initiative), but it would be nigh on impossible nowadays.

This is a truly bizarre post.

I'd guess there were more people playing rugby in London 80 years ago than are playing hurling now.

It's very easy to stamp out cheating and stamp out hounding of referees: punish the offenders. But it's not a culture that exists in soccer, and football is following suit.

I don't agree, Billy. While I don't think yours is a bizarre suggestion, as I see where you're coming from, I agree with wobbler that it's not that difficult to frame the laws as needed and enforce them as required to change the current culture of disrespect for referees.

The GAA legislators have managed to force through many changes that most would have seen as contrary to the ethos and traditions of football - many to its detriment. Look at the almost complete removal of physicality from the game (and the consequent prospering of cheating because it becomes easier and easier to feign being fouled). And the hiving off of millions annually for direct payments to players. These things happened despite the wishes of the majority of members, so I don't see the difficulty of introducing laws to implement a positive change in the culture of the game that would likely be supported by the majority of members.

Oddly, my disagreement is based on the same principles - I think it's harder nowadays, from a 'cultural' reference point, to effect change - the culture differing nowadays (in my view) in an opposition to change - I'm only talking now in relation to sports administration, and my experience of sports adminstrators.  I think soccer has suffered more than all other sports as the world game - it must be almost impossible to build consensus for change.  A long-winded way of saying that for rugby, in its infancy as a professional sport, with a limited number of participants - it has to have been easier to introduce new rules, new codes of conduct and new (or unconventional, from a sporting viewpoint) attitudes than: (a) soccer as the world game, or (b) gaelic games as a more mature (from a longevity viewpoint). 

[Hardy]

OK. I see your point. And I probably agree with it about soccer (not that I care what happens to soccer at this stage). But I don't think it's a real obstacle to reform of the GAA playing rules, one reason being the seeming ability of the executive to force through any change they want and get the majority to vote for it. So, in a sense, the problem for us is not the inertia of a large organisation and its membership, but the apathy or misguided agenda of the executive level.

[Nally Stand]

A good game of rugby is ok but its generally over hyped. Rugby league is a more exciting game.

I find rugby league a bit too repetitive. You know you are going to get 5 tackles and a kick every time. Union just has more variety.

I see where you're coming from but to me it still seems to have much more action/running on the ball and less of the pile-ons you see every few seconds in union.

[Billys Boots]

the seeming ability of the executive to force through any change they want and get the majority to vote for it

I think you've just escapsulated 'the Irish condition' there ... 

[Donnellys Hollow]

I wouldn't come from a "rugby area" at all so my first exposure to the game was when I was living over in England. A few of the lads in the GAA club over there told me that I should try out for their local rugby team and I thought I'd give it a go for the craic. It was a great sport to play and I regret not keeping it up when I moved back home. I think it's great that the sport caters for all shapes and sizes - an outside back could have vastly different physical attributes and skills compared to a front rower, yet both men are equally important to the team.

I still follow the game but I have found myself falling out of love with it slightly in recent years. I think rugby has become too attritional and some of the subtleties of the game are being lost. You only need to look at someone like Ronan O'Gara who possesses a great variety of creative skills yet there seems to be a constant focus on his defensive frailties rather than on his undoubted strengths. Rugby has become obsessed with defense and the game as a spectacle has suffered as a result (perhaps the same could be said about Gaelic Football?). Professionalism has profoundly changed the way the game is played. You only need to watch any of the TG4 reruns of 5 Nations matches from the 80s and early 90s to observe the difference in the conditioning of the players. It's interesting that the players that have been retiring in the last 2-3 years are the first generation of players who were professional for their entire careers and there are numerous stories of medical problems now emerging - John Fogarty & Bernard Jackman.

I don't follow the Heineken Cup as much these days and the whole Munster/Leinster rivalry is a bit repetitive and irritating. I am a proud Kildareman but I find it hard to identify with a Leinster team and the Munster bandwagon in recent years has become equally sickening. I still enjoy following the national team but I get the sense that the provinces are becoming more important to the rugby public. It would be a great shame if the international game was to decline like it has in soccer.