Federal Europe or No Europe?

[thejuice]

http://www.tv3.ie/3player/show/41/49609/1/Tonight-with-Vincent-Browne

So we've had George Lee and also the panel on Vincent Brown talking about Ireland leaving the Euro. It's unmistakably obvious that this is now a real possibility. Ireland needs to be ready. That seems to be the message.   

Meanwhile on Kremlin Today* the former PM of Italy suggests europe "has to" federalise or fall apart. That was the message on VB as well. That has been the issue for years now but the politicians seem to be very unwilling to grasp that. Perhaps they fear it being electoral suicide. It would seem to be in Germany anyway.

* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIT4q2hnF8k&list=UUpwvZwUam-URkxB7g4USKpg&index=9&feature=plcp

But I think its now down to a straight choice for Europe, federalise and go the whole hog in terms of integration or we have a managed break up of the eurozone or we let it fall around us while we keep our heads in the sand.

And perhaps the idea all along was that the politicians needed to back the people into a corner with austerity and they will vote for Federalism. How else other than under duress would we go for it. And it is not like no one was suggesting that was the case for a few years now. The problem being that some of those are tinfoil hat lunatics.

So what will it be?





And remember, much like the fiscal treaty, it guarantees nothing in terms of solving the financial crisis. The debt tsunami of the world is huge and still hasn't hit the shore.

[thejuice]

Robert Oulds on why Federalism would just increase the problem

http://www.brugesgroup.com/eu/the-uk-should-lead-in-dismantling-the-single-currency.htm?xp=comment

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R06sr2Zsb7k

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZ9lhoo8fZo

[magpie seanie]

The Euro was when this European project "jumped the shark" and in fairness to the Brits they copped it and stayed away from it. The EU as it was pre-Euro was fine and didn't need further integration. The currency will go and we can go back to the EU being a common trading area like it was first intended. We will suffer badly for 12-24 months and then hit another tiger like period of growth which hopefully we can manage this time.

[fearglasmor]

The Euro was when this European project "jumped the shark" and in fairness to the Brits they copped it and stayed away from it. The EU as it was pre-Euro was fine and didn't need further integration. The currency will go and we can go back to the EU being a common trading area like it was first intended. We will suffer badly for 12-24 months and then hit another tiger like period of growth which hopefully we can manage this time.

This is the only way I considered it would work. Sure the euro is handy for the holidays and makes international commerce easier to manage but becoming a German province in the future holds less attraction than being a British one was in the past.

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

The Euro was when this European project "jumped the shark" and in fairness to the Brits they copped it and stayed away from it. The EU as it was pre-Euro was fine and didn't need further integration. The currency will go and we can go back to the EU being a common trading area like it was first intended. We will suffer badly for 12-24 months and then hit another tiger like period of growth which hopefully we can manage this time.

This is the only way I considered it would work. Sure the euro is handy for the holidays and makes international commerce easier to manage but becoming a German province in the future holds less attraction than being a British one was in the past.

Nah, I will take a United States of Europe over the 26 counties re-entering the United Kingdom an day of the week.

[Farrandeelin]

The Euro was when this European project "jumped the shark" and in fairness to the Brits they copped it and stayed away from it. The EU as it was pre-Euro was fine and didn't need further integration. The currency will go and we can go back to the EU being a common trading area like it was first intended. We will suffer badly for 12-24 months and then hit another tiger like period of growth which hopefully we can manage this time.

This is the only way I considered it would work. Sure the euro is handy for the holidays and makes international commerce easier to manage but becoming a German province in the future holds less attraction than being a British one was in the past.

Nah, I will take a United States of Europe over the 26 counties re-entering the United Kingdom an day of the week.

I wouldn't like any of them things to happen to be honest, but a USE type scenario is looking more and more likely each day. Look at all the EU regulations handed down to us and implemented. It angers me that our traditions are been eroded.

[thebigfella]

The Euro was when this European project "jumped the shark" and in fairness to the Brits they copped it and stayed away from it. The EU as it was pre-Euro was fine and didn't need further integration. The currency will go and we can go back to the EU being a common trading area like it was first intended. We will suffer badly for 12-24 months and then hit another tiger like period of growth which hopefully we can manage this time.

This is the only way I considered it would work. Sure the euro is handy for the holidays and makes international commerce easier to manage but becoming a German province in the future holds less attraction than being a British one was in the past.

Nah, I will take a United States of Europe over the 26 counties re-entering the United Kingdom an day of the week.

I wouldn't like any of them things to happen to be honest, but a USE type scenario is looking more and more likely each day. Look at all the EU regulations handed down to us and implemented. It angers me that our traditions are been eroded.

Read the daily mail and sun newspapers much?

[thejuice]

Just another point.

Look at the mess coming out of Barcleys. London is awash with dirty money and crooked practices. If you think Europe or Ireland are in a mess when the lid comes off London I think its going to be pretty bad in the UK.

Some have long been saying London is like the financial black market. If barcleys comes before an independent judicial enquiry this could open a pandoras box.

also £50bn of QE announced today.

[Farrandeelin]

The Euro was when this European project "jumped the shark" and in fairness to the Brits they copped it and stayed away from it. The EU as it was pre-Euro was fine and didn't need further integration. The currency will go and we can go back to the EU being a common trading area like it was first intended. We will suffer badly for 12-24 months and then hit another tiger like period of growth which hopefully we can manage this time.

This is the only way I considered it would work. Sure the euro is handy for the holidays and makes international commerce easier to manage but becoming a German province in the future holds less attraction than being a British one was in the past.

Nah, I will take a United States of Europe over the 26 counties re-entering the United Kingdom an day of the week.

I wouldn't like any of them things to happen to be honest, but a USE type scenario is looking more and more likely each day. Look at all the EU regulations handed down to us and implemented. It angers me that our traditions are been eroded.

Read the daily mail and sun newspapers much?

Every single day of the week.

[Maguire01]

What exactly are all these traditions that are being eroded?

[Evil Genius]

What exactly are all these traditions that are being eroded?

Homophobia, Catholic fundamentalism, British economic domination, youth emigration, crap food, xenophobia, poverty and general backwardness.

Yep, that EU has a lot to answer for.

Sure wasn't even the weather better back in the day, too?

[fearglasmor]

What exactly are all these traditions that are being eroded?

Homophobia, Catholic fundamentalism, British economic domination, youth emigration, crap food, xenophobia, poverty and general backwardness.

Yep, that EU has a lot to answer for.

Sure wasn't even the weather better back in the day, too?

Must try harder.

[Hardy]

Coming from the Academy of Progressiveness that is Northern unionism, the brass neck that perpetrated this one has my chin aching from a resounding whack against my knee: 
... "general backwardness" ...

Coming from the Conservatory of Cuisine whose supreme achievement is the so-called "Ulster" Fry, this one just induced an indulgent, self-satisfied smile:
... "crap food" ...

Some of the other epithets you spewed read like surprisingly vicious bigotry of the most fundamental kind that ascribes negative characteristics to an entire nation, race or other grouping of people.

But you were just joking?

[Evil Genius]

Coming from the Academy of Progressiveness that is Northern unionism, the brass neck that perpetrated this one has my chin aching from a resounding whack against my knee: 
... "general backwardness" ...

Coming from the Conservatory of Cuisine whose supreme achievement is the so-called "Ulster" Fry, this one just induced an indulgent, self-satisfied smile:
... "crap food" ...

Some of the other epithets you spewed read like surprisingly vicious bigotry of the most fundamental kind that ascribes negative characteristics to an entire nation, race or other grouping of people.

But you were just joking?

I am old enough to remember ROI before/soon after it entered the EEC and whilst it had many attractive features, it had many more which were most unattractive, including those I listed.

Now as it happens, EEC membership contributed enormously to mitigating/eradicating those "traditions", both from the enormous economic subsidy which followed membership, but also from opening the country up to more outward-looking, progressive and cosmopolitan influences.

I salute the country for taking these on board, since it is now a generally very attractive place to live and work etc (notwithstanding that certain EU influences have led to a decline in some older, more desirable endemic values and traditions).

Therefore if I were a resident of the ROI, I think I would still consider the forthcoming Eurozone reforms and restructuring etc a price worth paying for continued membership - which was only the point of my post, in a "What have the Romans ever done for us?" * kind of a way.

Of course, had you asked me to explain myself further, you might have coaxed this out of me, but instead, you engaged in a (rather predictable) bout of "whataboutery" about NI.

Now normally I tend not to indulge such crap, but I will make an exception in this case to state the following.

Namely, most of the criticisms I made about ROI in the 60's and 70's etc might equally be applied to NI in that period (some even more so), ie Homophobia, crap food, xenophobia and general backwardness. And "Catholic fundamentalism" was replicated simply as Protestant fundamentalism.

Of course, there was notably less poverty and emigration in NI during that time, because the economy was intrinsically stronger (agriculture, industrialisation etc),  we had financial support from Westminster, plus we benefited from the NHS, Social Security and free Education etc.

However, there is no doubt that we also had sectarian and political tensions which periodically erupted into civil unrest etc, thereby making life much less tolerable for many. Such drawbacks hardly existed in, or impinged upon, ROI.

Therefore if you wanted to make the case that life was better in the ROI than NI pre-EEC, I wouldn't argue - it's a matter of personal preference.

But if you want to take unwarranted offence and assume from my criticisms of ROI that I must conversely harbour some sort of rose-tinted view of how things were in NI at the time etc, then I will argue.

In fact, I will call you for a bit of a thin-skinned t**t, who might be advised to think a little more before he puts finger to keyboard.


* - Perhaps I should explain that my "What have the Romans etc" reference comes from Monty Python's "Life of Brian", and so may have passed you by, seeing as that film was banned in the ROI on its release. In 1979.