Easter Lily & Rising Commemorations

[Evil Genius]

My own is that faced with a country where the majority in one part clearly wanted Independance from the UK, whereas the majority in the other part clearly wanted to remain in the UK, each part got what it wanted.

An interesting take on the concept of Gerrymandering

In determining constituencies, you have to draw the line somewhere. And with the differences in populations/nationalities/communities etc within Ireland in 1921, I do not consider it unreasonable for that line to have been drawn within the island, rather than around* it.

If nothing else, it was pragmatic in being the solution which would lead to the least bloodshed etc, as evidenced by the fact that the pro-Treaty forces prevailed in the Free State.

Meanwhile on the other side of the line, after nearly a century, NI is as secure an entity as its ever been.

Therefore what you term "Gerrymandering", I would term responsible, democratic and ultimately successful political government.

Anyhow, interesting and all as this historical debate is, I am much more concerned with the present than the past. And since the present arrangements are governed by the GFA, which is predicated upon Partition, do you consider that Agreement to have been "Gerrymandered", too?


* - Assuming you subscribe to the "Saltwater Argument", do you want to tell Scots/SNP that they are in a minority on their island, or shall I? 

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

When the British empire partioned our country they did not bother about the majority vote then;

The "empire" doesn't come into it, since in those days Ireland was part of the United Kingdom, not a colony. (If you have trouble getting your head round that distinction, just think Scotland and the SNP in the present day etc).

they simply excluded the 6 counties with a majority loyalist-crown favour and decided to rule that part of our land.

That is one interpretation. My own is that faced with a country where the majority in one part clearly wanted Independance from the UK, whereas the majority in the other part clearly wanted to remain in the UK, each part got what it wanted.
The fact that that resolution prevails nearly a century later shows that it was the best possible solution to the problem then obtaining (imo).

British democracy does not exist.

Simple question.

Do you think that the present arrangements for the internal governance of NI, plus the UK/ROI relationship, plus the inter-island relationship, are not democratic? (I'm talking about the GFA, in case you're wondering).

Because ultimately those arrangements were all negotiated by, and acceded to, by "the British".

EG the majority of the Island for one reason or other have never wanted to be ruled from Britain or to be in Union with Britain. The British/English/Scottish/Welsh never had any problem forcing the majority population of Ireland to be ruled from Britain againt their will, yet they could not even stand up for the democratic process and decern right and wrong by the 20'th century.

Trying to pretend the United Kingdom and the British Empire are different is a little trick the 20'th century/21st century British like to play. The BBC had a documentary recently on the British Empire, not one mention of Ireland, its first and most consistently troublesome conquest. Ireland's inclusion within the UK has never been anything other than British engineering (something they used to be good at), an undemocratic puppet parliament maintained by British armed forces voted (after being heavily bribed by the London parliament) to Ireland joining the Union. South Africa or Rhodesia etc. could very easily be in the United Kingdom by those standards, of course the British solution could very easily by the Irish lesson would probably result in a reduced white UK statelet in Southern Africa, protected by the RAF, British Army, Royal Navy, Royal Marines, Nuclear Submarines, SAS etc.

[Evil Genius]

EG the majority of the Island for one reason or other have never wanted to be ruled from Britain or to be in Union with Britain. The British/English/Scottish/Welsh never had any problem forcing the majority population of Ireland to be ruled from Britain againt their will, yet they could not even stand up for the democratic process and decern right and wrong by the 20'th century.

Yet just as eg the people of Scotland or Wales form a minority within their island (GB), so the people of Ireland have always formed a minority within the British Isles. Or the people of eg the UK form a minority within the EU.

There is no principle ordained from on high as to where the line must be drawn. In the Irish context, you would clearly want it drawn around the island, whereas I want it drawn within the island.

Of course, we could argue forever which adjudication was the most appropriate in 1921 etc. But the fact remains that the present political dispensation which governs these things is the GFA, and that Agreement is undeniably predicated upon Partition.

Therefore I will ask you the same question as I asked 'Orangeman': Do you think the (partitionist) GFA is a democratic construct, or an undemocratic one?

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

EG the majority of the Island for one reason or other have never wanted to be ruled from Britain or to be in Union with Britain. The British/English/Scottish/Welsh never had any problem forcing the majority population of Ireland to be ruled from Britain againt their will, yet they could not even stand up for the democratic process and decern right and wrong by the 20'th century.

Yet just as eg the people of Scotland or Wales form a minority within their island (GB), so the people of Ireland have always formed a minority within the British IslesAtlantic Archipelago. Or the people of eg the UK form a minority within the EU.

There is no principle ordained from on high as to where the line must be drawn. In the Irish context, you would clearly want it drawn around the island, whereas I want it drawn within the island.

Of course, we could argue forever which adjudication was the most appropriate in 1921 etc. But the fact remains that the present political dispensation which governs these things is the GFA, and that Agreement is undeniably predicated upon Partition.

Therefore I will ask you the same question as I asked 'Orangeman': Do you think the (partitionist) GFA is a democratic construct, or an undemocratic one?

EG I have always held that 1921/1922 was undemocratic and wrong. The GFA was democratic. We are not talking about the 1990's here we are discussing the 1916 Rising and the consquences at that time in Ireland's history.

[theticklemister]

Me and MayoGodHelpUs in agreement..............................that has just cleared up my hangover!!!!!

[sheamy]

Therefore what you term "Gerrymandering", I would term responsible, democratic and ultimately successful political government.

It was a sectarian headcount forced upon the people of Ireland under the threat of mass murder after a democratic vote of all the people of Ireland was ignored in 1918. The glory of British democracy at its finest. You really are some shister if you can label the history of the six counties as either responsible, democratic or successful government. The GFA agreement does one thing...it gives the people of Ireland the chance to evolve the nation free from the 'selfish, strategic or economic' interests of Britain. Nothing more, nothing less. Just a pity that opportunity wasn't afforded with the absence of those interests when the Irish people voted democratically in 1918.

[Evil Genius]

Trying to pretend the United Kingdom and the British Empire are different is a little trick the 20'th century/21st century British like to play. The BBC had a documentary recently on the British Empire, not one mention of Ireland, its first and most consistently troublesome conquest. Ireland's inclusion within the UK has never been anything other than British engineering (something they used to be good at), an undemocratic puppet parliament maintained by British armed forces voted (after being heavily bribed by the London parliament) to Ireland joining the Union. South Africa or Rhodesia etc. could very easily be in the United Kingdom by those standards, of course the British solution could very easily by the Irish lesson would probably result in a reduced white UK statelet in Southern Africa, protected by the RAF, British Army, Royal Navy, Royal Marines, Nuclear Submarines, SAS etc.

You're talking absolute nonsense.

The fact remains that whilst Ireland was part of the UK, it was entitled to direct representation in the British Parliament/Government, whereas the Colonies were not.

It's quite simple, really... 

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

Trying to pretend the United Kingdom and the British Empire are different is a little trick the 20'th century/21st century British like to play. The BBC had a documentary recently on the British Empire, not one mention of Ireland, its first and most consistently troublesome conquest. Ireland's inclusion within the UK has never been anything other than British engineering (something they used to be good at), an undemocratic puppet parliament maintained by British armed forces voted (after being heavily bribed by the London parliament) to Ireland joining the Union. South Africa or Rhodesia etc. could very easily be in the United Kingdom by those standards, of course the British solution could very easily by the Irish lesson would probably result in a reduced white UK statelet in Southern Africa, protected by the RAF, British Army, Royal Navy, Royal Marines, Nuclear Submarines, SAS etc.

You're talking absolute nonsense.

The fact remains that whilst Ireland was part of the UK, it was entitled to direct representation in the British Parliament/Government, whereas the Colonies were not.

It's quite simple, really... 

O right, so Ireland had a mandate to leave the UK after 1919 (in its entirity). Which is it, should the U.K. have accepted the democratic will of the Irish people (the people of Ireland, whatever their colour, creed or belief) or were the justified treating us like an Imperial possession?

Thanks for making it simple, real simple 

[Evil Genius]

EG I have always held that 1921/1922 was undemocratic and wrong.

I disagree.

The GFA was democratic.

I agree.

We are not talking about the 1990's here we are discussing the 1916 Rising and the consquences at that time in Ireland's history.

I consider the 1916 Rising to have been fundamentally undemocratic and unjustifiable and, contrary to the aims of its instigators, it (Rising) actually flushed hopes of a United Ireland down the crapper for at least a Century, if not permanently.

[Evil Genius]

Trying to pretend the United Kingdom and the British Empire are different is a little trick the 20'th century/21st century British like to play. The BBC had a documentary recently on the British Empire, not one mention of Ireland, its first and most consistently troublesome conquest. Ireland's inclusion within the UK has never been anything other than British engineering (something they used to be good at), an undemocratic puppet parliament maintained by British armed forces voted (after being heavily bribed by the London parliament) to Ireland joining the Union. South Africa or Rhodesia etc. could very easily be in the United Kingdom by those standards, of course the British solution could very easily by the Irish lesson would probably result in a reduced white UK statelet in Southern Africa, protected by the RAF, British Army, Royal Navy, Royal Marines, Nuclear Submarines, SAS etc.

You're talking absolute nonsense.

The fact remains that whilst Ireland was part of the UK, it was entitled to direct representation in the British Parliament/Government, whereas the Colonies were not.

It's quite simple, really... 

O right, so Ireland had a mandate to leave the UK after 1919 (in its entirity). Which is it, should the U.K. have accepted the democratic will of the Irish people (the people of Ireland, whatever their colour, creed or belief) or were the justified treating us like an Imperial possession?

Thanks for making it simple, real simple 

I don't know whether you're consciously shifting the goalposts or not, but that [bold] was not the point I was making.

Rather it was that the definition of a "colony" is a territory which is ruled by another, without right of representation in the Parliament of that other.

And Ireland always had direct representation, however imperfectly, in Westminster (as indeed Northern Ireland has today).

Now if you want to move the debate onto other aspects of the relationship between Britain and Ireland, then that's fine by me, but I think you'll find it's better all round if you acknowledge at least the basic principles underpinning that debate.

[Evil Genius]

Therefore what you term "Gerrymandering", I would term responsible, democratic and ultimately successful political government.

It was a sectarian headcount forced upon the people of Ireland under the threat of mass murder after a democratic vote of all the people of Ireland was ignored in 1918. The glory of British democracy at its finest.

That is one interpretation. Mine is rather different.

You really are some shister if you can label the history of the six counties as either responsible, democratic or successful government.

I did not describe "the history of the six counties" [sic] as "responsible, democratic and successful".

Rather I was referring to the Anglo-Irish Treaty of 1921 in those terms (at least relative to the alternative solutions which might have been devised).

The GFA agreement does one thing...it gives the people of Ireland the chance to evolve the nation free from the 'selfish, strategic or economic' interests of Britain. Nothing more, nothing less.

If you wish to go on persuading yourself that it is "nothing more or less" than that, go ahead.

I shall continue to see it as fundamentally recognising Partition, indeed in such as a way as to move any realistic hope of an end to Partition further away, not closer.

Just a pity that opportunity wasn't afforded with the absence of those interests when the Irish people voted democratically in 1918.

Since I wasn't around in 1918, and don't have a Time Machine, then I suppose I'll just have to contain my own disappointment:

[Myles Na G.]

That 'Ignore Poster' function has to be the most juvenile idea I've come across on an internet chat room. It's the equivalent of a 6 year old standing in the corner with fingers in ears, going nah-nah-nah-nah nah-nah. Pathetic.

[LondonCamanachd]

Where was the British sense of democracy in the Falklands war?

Defending it?

I don't think Galtieri sent his under-fed, under-equipped conscripts to die in the name of democracy, or to free the people of the Falklands from the imperialist British yoke.

[muppet]

I just find it hard to believe that anyone can care enough that they start putting other people on an "ignore list". WTF? It's only a post. That said, I don't fully understand bandwidth and how it can be 'wasted' or how it can be 'saved' by "ignoring" someone.

I've started trying to reduce my bandwidth in both the running and the beer belly threads.

[dillinger]

Evil Genius

Re: Easter Lily & Rising Commemorations
« Reply #126 on: April 09, 2012, 07:54:13 PM »
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Evil Genius

Re: Easter Lily & Rising Commemorations
« Reply #127 on: April 09, 2012, 08:00:05 PM »
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Evil Genius

Re: Easter Lily & Rising Commemorations
« Reply #128 on: April 09, 2012, 08:09:40 PM »
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Evil Genius

Re: Easter Lily & Rising Commemorations
« Reply #129 on: April 09, 2012, 08:13:50 PM »
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Evil Genius

Re: Easter Lily & Rising Commemorations
« Reply #130 on: April 09, 2012, 08:18:21 PM »
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Aaaaghhh bliss!  

You will look again. You know you can't resist it! Anyway, were us Unionists not the Rebels in 1921? Just a thought.