Easter Lily & Rising Commemorations

[Il Bomber Destro]

You somehow seem to be revising an outlook that The War of  Independence was a success. It may have got the 26 it's freedom but it created a sectarian statelet which would inevitably lead to another bloody conflict

Yeah revisionism is to be reviled

You paint the Provos campaign as a failure. It certainly hastened a more equal and accommodating society for nationalists to live in today. It seems to have delivered peace to the island, certainly for the time being.

f**king brilliant. You really are a deranged tool but I really, really wish you had your own TV show ("An Idiot at Home") or channel even dedicated to your espousal of your views. You would make a fortune in advertising revenues.

Are you denying that the O6 state has not been in a relative state of peace since the GFA was signed?

I think what you don't like about me is that I'm a skilled debater while you are an empty vessel.

A skilled debater would note that ending a conflict to bring about a state of peace, does not mean that the conflict itself achieved peace. Peace is the absence of conflict.

I didn't say the conflict achieved peace, I said it hastened the process for equal rights which in turn lessened the appetite for conflict, culminating in a peace process.

[easytiger95]

You said "it seems to have delivered peace" - it's highlighted in your own quote. Who's disingenuous now?

[Il Bomber Destro]

You said "it seems to have delivered peace" - it's highlighted in your own quote. Who's disingenuous now?

Well, are you disagreeing that peace is not prevalent in the O6 today?

[Hound]

To be honest, I think that says more about you, than about them. Don't ye call the Derry lads 'in breeds' or it it the other way around? Is that banter, or do ye really think they are all in bred?

Or is it more that when the mask slips the first thing they think about is the border and we are different than them, almost as if we are not Irish and they are. I don't pay much heed to it, I wouldn't get hot and bothered about it, I've heard it enough times by now.

Happens both ways ffs. A good mate of mine is from Portadown and I often go out with him in Belfast. I've lost count of the amount of times I've been called a free state b**tard when I'm there.

Alan Brogan was a called "a Fenian b***tard" by the Tyrone physio during a match!

Late to the party, but 

You've made a right bollocks of yourself here

For the love of jaysus.
Ok this is my last word on this. I only brought it up as an example of the stupid banter that goes on in the heat of the moment, when some other eejit on here complained earlier how hurt his feeling get when he hears "Nordie fooker".

But this actually happened (along with a lot of other stupid stuff on both sides pretty much equally). It was a completely ridiculous heat of the moment comment and lord knows what he was thinking. Whether you believe it or not, I really couldn't give a crap. Alan Brogan would have absolutely no reason to make it up. The Tyrone physio/doctor was even reprimanded for it.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/tyrone-dublin-hit-hard-for-omagh-brawls-1.1187009

[armaghniac]

The Tyrone doctor/physio did not call Alan Brogan a fenian b**tard. That has either been misheard or made up.

Anyway, the aftermath of 1916 rising - the Battle of Omagh. Who'd have thought?

Absolutely. A word starting with F may have been used, but I am pretty sure it wasn't Fenian.

[AZOffaly]

The Tyrone doctor/physio did not call Alan Brogan a fenian b**tard. That has either been misheard or made up.

Anyway, the aftermath of 1916 rising - the Battle of Omagh. Who'd have thought?

Absolutely. A word starting with F may have been used, but I am pretty sure it wasn't Fenian.

If he did, it wouldn't really be an insult anyway, would it?

[easytiger95]

You said "it seems to have delivered peace" - it's highlighted in your own quote. Who's disingenuous now?

Well, are you disagreeing that peace is not prevalent in the O6 today?

Sorry Bomber, that is an incredibly dumb question, especially for a master "debater" such as yourself. Of course peace is prevalent - what we are disagreeing on is whether armed conflict "delivered" that peace. You think so, I don't - in fact it was only in giving up conflict was a peace process able to start.

And that is a fact, given that all the back channel messages from the British and Irish governments said the same thing - stop the war, give up your arms and you will be allowed join the political process. The only thing preventing a peace process taking place was the PIRA - and Adams et al deserve great credit in persuading them to stop. But you cannot credibly claim that the conflict itself delivered or hastened peace, given those facts.

You're spoofing now Bomber, it doesn't suit you.

[armaghniac]

The Tyrone doctor/physio did not call Alan Brogan a fenian b**tard. That has either been misheard or made up.

Anyway, the aftermath of 1916 rising - the Battle of Omagh. Who'd have thought?

Absolutely. A word starting with F may have been used, but I am pretty sure it wasn't Fenian.

If he did, it wouldn't really be an insult anyway, would it?

I think it says a lot that Fenian is regarded as an insult in Dublin.

[AZOffaly]

Peace is more than the absence of conflict, it is also equality and fair treatment for all citizens. I think it's fair to say that the horrible war that went on for 30 years or more certainly had a hand in delivering a more equitable peace to the North. Whether is should have been necessary is a moot point.

[Hound]

The Tyrone doctor/physio did not call Alan Brogan a fenian b**tard. That has either been misheard or made up.

Anyway, the aftermath of 1916 rising - the Battle of Omagh. Who'd have thought?

Absolutely. A word starting with F may have been used, but I am pretty sure it wasn't Fenian.

If he did, it wouldn't really be an insult anyway, would it?

I think it says a lot that Fenian is regarded as an insult in Dublin.

Alan wasn't insulted. He was completely bemused.

[theskull1]

Taking the gang rape analogy. Can our southern brethren not understand that the victim spotted you walking past on the other side of the street. You know she seen you with the head down and do nothing. She's walked past you in the street ever since. Not easy for her. How do you feel?

Serious question: Did the war of independence create enough simmering resentment to make the plight of the north nationalists an afterthought by that stage?

Any reason why no one's answered these questions?

I get the argument about feeling powerless and having enough to worry about on your own doorstep, but surely the free state should have some sort of collective guilt about the way they left northern nationalist behind to continue to be treated as second class citizens? Genuinely, is that not a feeling thats held or is there some church like denial going on? BTW this the perspective from someone who is far from what would be called a hardliner on these subjects.

Bumping ...... In case it gets lost in the mire of the popular debate taking place

Good essay here from History Ireland on Lynch's response to crisis in the North, Skull.

http://www.historyireland.com/20th-century-contemporary-history/jack-lynch-and-the-defence-of-democracy-in-ireland-august-1969-june-1970/

I suppose the big takeaway there is that it wasn't just the Northern Nationalists who were at risk (though of course they suffered more than anyone). If Lynch ordered troops over the border, he was declaring war on a NATO member. If he didn't, there was huge risk the democratic structures of the Republic would fall apart and that there could be a resumption of Civil War hostilities in the South. A real dilemma for any Taoiseach, perhaps the biggest ever faced, in a country where democracy was still only bedding in.

He also advocated for UN involvement, which seems to me to answer some of the critics here on the board, who wanted "something, anything" to be done.

Good essay tiger but its not really touching on what I've been asking here. I accept that just reason for not going in all guns blazing was taken by the leaders of the time all through the 20s right up to the GFA, but I would have thought in all that time, the majority of people in the south knew that they'd left northern nationalists behind living in an apartheid and would/should have harboured a guilt about that fact? Did they actually though? I'm not getting that in any of the dialogue here. I'm hearing excuses (however justifiable those excuses are) , but nothing much else. I get the feeling there's been a slow dehumanisation of northern nationalists in the minds of the population down there and that only for our thuggery there'd have been more empathy from our southern brethern. It might very well sit better on the conscience and allow us to be easier forgotten when the oppression was at its worst? I dunno ... just trying to understand the feelings that aren't spoke about due to the uncomfortable nature of the topic.

Why do I get the feeling I'm being ignored? Is no one willing to give a perspective here? 

[armaghniac]

Good essay tiger but its not really touching on what I've been asking here. I accept that just reason for not going in all guns blazing was taken by the leaders of the time all through the 20s right up to the GFA, but I would have thought in all that time, the majority of people in the south knew that they'd left northern nationalists behind living in an apartheid and would/should have harboured a guilt about that fact? Did they actually though? I'm not getting that in any of the dialogue here. I'm hearing excuses (however justifiable those excuses are) , but nothing much else. I get the feeling there's been a slow dehumanisation of northern nationalists in the minds of the population down there and that only for our thuggery there'd have been more empathy from our southern brethern. It might very well sit better on the conscience and allow us to be easier forgotten when the oppression was at its worst? I dunno ... just trying to understand the feelings that aren't spoke about due to the uncomfortable nature of the topic.

This seems fair comment. The civil rights marches elicited considerable support in the 26 counties, attacking British army patrols and the like is within the tradition of Irish nationalism, but the car bombs etc are not and NI nationalism has chosen to be represented by people who justify these things.

[foxcommander]

To be honest, I think that says more about you, than about them. Don't ye call the Derry lads 'in breeds' or it it the other way around? Is that banter, or do ye really think they are all in bred?

Or is it more that when the mask slips the first thing they think about is the border and we are different than them, almost as if we are not Irish and they are. I don't pay much heed to it, I wouldn't get hot and bothered about it, I've heard it enough times by now.

Happens both ways ffs. A good mate of mine is from Portadown and I often go out with him in Belfast. I've lost count of the amount of times I've been called a free state b**tard when I'm there.

Alan Brogan was a called "a Fenian b***tard" by the Tyrone physio during a match!

Late to the party, but 

You've made a right bollocks of yourself here

Not for the first time either. He makes a habit of showing himself up with bullshit.

[Il Bomber Destro]

Good essay tiger but its not really touching on what I've been asking here. I accept that just reason for not going in all guns blazing was taken by the leaders of the time all through the 20s right up to the GFA, but I would have thought in all that time, the majority of people in the south knew that they'd left northern nationalists behind living in an apartheid and would/should have harboured a guilt about that fact? Did they actually though? I'm not getting that in any of the dialogue here. I'm hearing excuses (however justifiable those excuses are) , but nothing much else. I get the feeling there's been a slow dehumanisation of northern nationalists in the minds of the population down there and that only for our thuggery there'd have been more empathy from our southern brethern. It might very well sit better on the conscience and allow us to be easier forgotten when the oppression was at its worst? I dunno ... just trying to understand the feelings that aren't spoke about due to the uncomfortable nature of the topic.

This seems fair comment. The civil rights marches elicited considerable support in the 26 counties, attacking British army patrols and the like is within the tradition of Irish nationalism, but the car bombs etc are not and NI nationalism has chosen to be represented by people who justify these things.

The fenians bombed Manchester in the 1800s. Besides, the landscape of war changed, how accessible and practical were bombs in the early 1900s?

More police lost their lives in The War of Independence and there were 185 people killed for being spies and informants by the IRA in The War of Independence. There were countless brutal sectarian mass murders of Protestants committed by the IRA down in Cork during The War of Independence.

Of course all of these things have been airbrushed out of The Free State's history.

[Hound]

To be honest, I think that says more about you, than about them. Don't ye call the Derry lads 'in breeds' or it it the other way around? Is that banter, or do ye really think they are all in bred?

Or is it more that when the mask slips the first thing they think about is the border and we are different than them, almost as if we are not Irish and they are. I don't pay much heed to it, I wouldn't get hot and bothered about it, I've heard it enough times by now.

Happens both ways ffs. A good mate of mine is from Portadown and I often go out with him in Belfast. I've lost count of the amount of times I've been called a free state b**tard when I'm there.

Alan Brogan was a called "a Fenian b***tard" by the Tyrone physio during a match!

Late to the party, but 

You've made a right bollocks of yourself here

Not for the first time either. He makes a habit of showing himself up with bullshit.

Houl on
The right wing Shinner knows all. Still waiting for you to tell us all how you feel about Sinn Fein's liberal socialist ideology?