Easter Lily & Rising Commemorations

[tiempo]

Someone asked for two things successive 26co governments should have done following their gutless betrayal of Irish men women and children in Tyrone, Derry, Armagh, Antrim, Fermanagh and Down.

a) Large scale lobbying of the American government and Irish-American diaspora to pressure Britain into ceding Tyrone, Derry, Armagh, Antrim, Fermanagh and Down. Political intervention.

b) Sent peacekeeping forces across the border to save lives in, you guessed it... Tyrone, Derry, Armagh, Antrim, Fermanagh and Down. Military intervention.

I tried to resist re-entering the debate as it's pointless but:

a) Yeah - USA had no interest in Irish affairs until Clinton. None. Shure Woodrow Wilson refused to acknowledge the 1918 election and the rights of the Irish people to declare independence. Official USA, after WWII, would always have the UK's side. There is no way any amount of lobbying would have changed that position. Actually, as a side note, the 'non-offcial' Irish America did get involved. Ever hear of NORAID.

b) Peacekeeping forces, as you call them, operate under UN Madate. UN would not get involved in offically internal UK affairs. The theory perhaps at the time was create an incident and get the UN involved but by the time the lads in the UN woke up at least 1,000 Irish troops would have been killed. I point you to this wiki piece. I know this article may have no status and may be the ramblings of a lunatic (it is wiki after all) but it's worth reading over a coffee. I don't think it's too over the top.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exercise_Armageddon

then there is the paper of record

http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/operation-armageddon-would-have-been-doomsday-for-irish-aggressors-1.728983

Forget what interest the USA had in Irish affairs, lobbying is the process of bringing the situation to their attention, it has worked in spades for the Zionists and their bloodthirsty Islamophobic tendencies, the 26co government neglected to bring the genocide in Tyrone, Derry, Armagh, Antrim, Fermanagh and Down to international attention.

So the 26co army are fit to carry out peacekeeping duties across the world at the green light of NATO but let their own kin a few miles up the road suffer at the hands of a barbaric sectarian regime. How about assessing a situation for themselves and doing what is best for all the citizens of the country as per the proclamation, isn't that what the weekend events claimed has been achieved?

Successive 26co governments have been self-serving apologists and revisionists afraid to challenge the likes of Britain and NATO as they had it pretty cushty in the shires of Roscommon and the like.

I suppose there was that one time the British came to Love Ulster on the streets of Dublin and the lads roaded them, fine work, lying in wait, a great ambush that was, medals for gallantry all round.

Take it to the ICC.

ICC founded in 1998, what have the 26co government done in the last century to save the lives of Irish men women and children in Tyrone, Derry, Armagh, Antrim, Fermanagh and Down from a brutal sectarian regime and highlight the pogrom that occurred there?

Pogrom: An organized massacre of a particular ethnic group

Can you tell me a bit about these organized massacres in Tyrone and Fermanagh?

"Twelve or fourteen houses were sometimes wrecked in a single night. Several Catholic chapels were burnt, and the persecution which began in Armagh soon extended over a wide area in the counties of Tyrone, Down, Antrim, and Derry."

http://www.academia.edu/6318325/Facts_and_Figures_of_the_Belfast_Pogroms_G.B._Kenna_1922

So it is attacks prior to the formation of the Free State you wanted the Free State government to intervene with?

I don't distinguish between attacks pre and post December 1922, that was not a line in the sand regards pogrom in Ulster, it was merely a point of convenience for those in successive 26co government to set themselves up to avoid dealing with the situation in Tyrone, Derry, Armagh, Antrim, Fermanagh and Down.

Sucessive 26co governments did nothing in a political and military capacity to intervene in Tyrone, Derry, Armagh, Antrim, Fermanagh and Down post 1922 based on the 1916 proclamation.

Why bother I suppose, all was well in Roscommon shires and the like.

[omaghjoe]

I think it's apt when the lads here are asked what the Free State ever did to help out the Northern nationalists, the immediate reply is not really an answer of such, it's a litany of excuses. Now why would anyone start off with excuses??

Bomber you where asking why they didnt invade the North, I at least was just telling you why.

[easytiger95]

Fair dues OJ 2006 it was. Was it not the physio then? Who was it? Looks like I'm the one going to spec savers/psychiatrist.

Ps you're still talking bull about 2008 though 

[T Fearon]

They effectively did too,when they said that the constitutional position would be decided by the votes of the Northerners,and they had no selfish or strategic interest here

[T Fearon]

Seriously I think it would help the North if both governments would honestly and forthrightly come out and say they have no interest in attaching themselves politically to us,or rule us

[omaghjoe]

Fair dues OJ 2006 it was. Was it not the physio then? Who was it? Looks like I'm the one going to spec savers/psychiatrist.

Ps you're still talking bull about 2008 though 

Doctor

It might be Bull it might be the case, only AB really knows. But its what i think and I havent seen or heard anything to make me think any different.

[easytiger95]

Yeah well, if you have no proof for it, you might think twice about calling a guy a coward - especially since I know for a fact how long he was out with that injury afterwards.

[theskull1]

Taking the gang rape analogy. Can our southern brethren not understand that the victim spotted you walking past on the other side of the street. You know she seen you with the head down and do nothing. She's walked past you in the street ever since. Not easy for her. How do you feel?

Serious question: Did the war of independence create enough simmering resentment to make the plight of the north nationalists an afterthought by that stage?

Any reason why no one's answered these questions?

I get the argument about feeling powerless and having enough to worry about on your own doorstep, but surely the free state should have some sort of collective guilt about the way they left northern nationalist behind to continue to be treated as second class citizens? Genuinely, is that not a feeling thats held or is there some church like denial going on? BTW this the perspective from someone who is far from what would be called a hardliner on these subjects.

Bumping ...... In case it gets lost in the mire of the popular debate taking place

Good essay here from History Ireland on Lynch's response to crisis in the North, Skull.

http://www.historyireland.com/20th-century-contemporary-history/jack-lynch-and-the-defence-of-democracy-in-ireland-august-1969-june-1970/

I suppose the big takeaway there is that it wasn't just the Northern Nationalists who were at risk (though of course they suffered more than anyone). If Lynch ordered troops over the border, he was declaring war on a NATO member. If he didn't, there was huge risk the democratic structures of the Republic would fall apart and that there could be a resumption of Civil War hostilities in the South. A real dilemma for any Taoiseach, perhaps the biggest ever faced, in a country where democracy was still only bedding in.

He also advocated for UN involvement, which seems to me to answer some of the critics here on the board, who wanted "something, anything" to be done.

Good essay tiger but its not really touching on what I've been asking here. I accept that just reason for not going in all guns blazing was taken by the leaders of the time all through the 20s right up to the GFA, but I would have thought in all that time, the majority of people in the south knew that they'd left northern nationalists behind living in an apartheid and would/should have harboured a guilt about that fact? Did they actually though? I'm not getting that in any of the dialogue here. I'm hearing excuses (however justifiable those excuses are) , but nothing much else. I get the feeling there's been a slow dehumanisation of northern nationalists in the minds of the population down there and that only for our thuggery there'd have been more empathy from our southern brethern. It might very well sit better on the conscience and allow us to be easier forgotten when the oppression was at its worst? I dunno ... just trying to understand the feelings that aren't spoke about due to the uncomfortable nature of the topic.

[omaghjoe]

Yeah well, if you have no proof for it, you might think twice about calling a guy a coward - especially since I know for a fact how long he was out with that injury afterwards.

Tell me more details, I'm open minded.

I don't think the guy is a coward at all, but for what ever reason he didn't want to know that day.

[smelmoth]

I don't see how Sinn Fein were part of this injustices when they were the ones living through it and putting their lives on the line - ordinary men and women doing extraordinary things, such were the times.

We all know how SF put the lives of ordinary men and women on the line

I take it you think the likes of Eddie Fullerton were legitimate targets then.

How strange the irish government didn't cause a fuss about it happening on their soil.

What makes you think that? Serious question. Please outline your "thinking"

Maybe you want to clarify your comment first.

You want a list of the SF members who have taken lives? It would take a while to come up with and its not for today but it could be done if someone was willing to put the effort in. If would have to be limited to the ones that are publicly known. There could be more than that. A lot more. Then we could look at the gun runners, commanders, apologists, strategists etc

Now over to you to explain your comment

Ball still in your court Foxy on this one

[smelmoth]

You somehow seem to be revising an outlook that The War of  Independence was a success. It may have got the 26 it's freedom but it created a sectarian statelet which would inevitably lead to another bloody conflict

Yeah revisionism is to be reviled

You paint the Provos campaign as a failure. It certainly hastened a more equal and accommodating society for nationalists to live in today. It seems to have delivered peace to the island, certainly for the time being.

f**king brilliant. You really are a deranged tool but I really, really wish you had your own TV show ("An Idiot at Home") or channel even dedicated to your espousal of your views. You would make a fortune in advertising revenues.

[Il Bomber Destro]

You somehow seem to be revising an outlook that The War of  Independence was a success. It may have got the 26 it's freedom but it created a sectarian statelet which would inevitably lead to another bloody conflict

Yeah revisionism is to be reviled

You paint the Provos campaign as a failure. It certainly hastened a more equal and accommodating society for nationalists to live in today. It seems to have delivered peace to the island, certainly for the time being.

f**king brilliant. You really are a deranged tool but I really, really wish you had your own TV show ("An Idiot at Home") or channel even dedicated to your espousal of your views. You would make a fortune in advertising revenues.

Are you denying that the O6 state has not been in a relative state of peace since the GFA was signed?

I think what you don't like about me is that I'm a skilled debater while you are an empty vessel.

[foxcommander]

I don't see how Sinn Fein were part of this injustices when they were the ones living through it and putting their lives on the line - ordinary men and women doing extraordinary things, such were the times.

We all know how SF put the lives of ordinary men and women on the line

I take it you think the likes of Eddie Fullerton were legitimate targets then.

How strange the irish government didn't cause a fuss about it happening on their soil.

What makes you think that? Serious question. Please outline your "thinking"

Maybe you want to clarify your comment first.

You want a list of the SF members who have taken lives? It would take a while to come up with and its not for today but it could be done if someone was willing to put the effort in. If would have to be limited to the ones that are publicly known. There could be more than that. A lot more. Then we could look at the gun runners, commanders, apologists, strategists etc

Now over to you to explain your comment

Ball still in your court Foxy on this one

Your original argument stated that councillors/politicians lives were put on the line due to their association with SF. I responded accordingly.
Your new argument has changed into something else which is outside the scope of my reply.

[easytiger95]

You somehow seem to be revising an outlook that The War of  Independence was a success. It may have got the 26 it's freedom but it created a sectarian statelet which would inevitably lead to another bloody conflict

Yeah revisionism is to be reviled

You paint the Provos campaign as a failure. It certainly hastened a more equal and accommodating society for nationalists to live in today. It seems to have delivered peace to the island, certainly for the time being.

f**king brilliant. You really are a deranged tool but I really, really wish you had your own TV show ("An Idiot at Home") or channel even dedicated to your espousal of your views. You would make a fortune in advertising revenues.

Are you denying that the O6 state has not been in a relative state of peace since the GFA was signed?

I think what you don't like about me is that I'm a skilled debater while you are an empty vessel.

A skilled debater would note that ending a conflict to bring about a state of peace, does not mean that the conflict itself achieved peace. Peace is the absence of conflict.

[haranguerer]

To be honest, I think that says more about you, than about them. Don't ye call the Derry lads 'in breeds' or it it the other way around? Is that banter, or do ye really think they are all in bred?

Or is it more that when the mask slips the first thing they think about is the border and we are different than them, almost as if we are not Irish and they are. I don't pay much heed to it, I wouldn't get hot and bothered about it, I've heard it enough times by now.

Happens both ways ffs. A good mate of mine is from Portadown and I often go out with him in Belfast. I've lost count of the amount of times I've been called a free state b**tard when I'm there.

Alan Brogan was a called "a Fenian b***tard" by the Tyrone physio during a match!

Late to the party, but 

You've made a right bollocks of yourself here