The Kerry Championship

[AZOffaly]

As someone said it's the parochial rivalry which would be the difficult part. How are the management and panels of the Divisional sides made up? How/Where do they train? Are they called up from February or are they picked after the Club Championship?

It's a fascinating system and I think it would work well in Derry if there was a North and South team made up of Intermediate and Junior players making the step up to the Senior Championship. It would add an extra edge to the Championship I think!

South Kerry is the division I'd be most familiar with, and because there is a divisional board, management and selectors are picked as a county board would choose a county manager. When the manager and his team are selected, they basically pick a panel from the pool of players available to them. Because there are so many competitions in Kerry between Club championships, County Leagues, Divisional Leagues and Divisional Championships, there is a lot of games for players to show their stuff.

The championship in Kerry can be a bit fragmented because of delays as the County Team progress, but generally the divisional sides train, play challenges and do everything that club sides would do, except they are not together as long, or as often. Players normally train with their clubs and the divisional side at the same time of year.

The Divisional side can theoretically train in any 'member' club, but I think South Kerry normally use Cahirciveen as their base, as it's the biggest town, and all the clubs tend to be based around there. However they have trained in Waterville, Ballinskelligs and Dromid as well.

[emmetryan]

I recall the old Fingal League used to field a team in the Dublin SFC but I'm not sure if they were ever seriously competitive. The Kerry structure definitely sounds like one particularly beneficial for getting players prepared.

[Onlooker]

I must say that I do not like the Kerry model of Divisional sides playing in the County Championship.  The County Championship should be for clubs only and there is something wong to have a club team playing a Divisional team picked from 6 or 7 clubs.  The club is the basic unit of the GAA and County Championships should be for club teams.   Surely a Kerry County Final between, say, Dr. Croke's and Austin Stacks is preferable to a final between Mid Kerry and East Kerry.  Would spectators really care that much who won a final between 2 Divisional teams.  i would certainly prefer to see my own club or a neighbouring one in a County Final than a Divisional selection.  I also know that the inclusion of a Divisional team in the Limerick SHC has become a bit of a farce, with some players been asked to play an Intermediate Championship match on Saturday for their club and a Senior Semi Final on Sunday for the Division.  AFAIK several players pulled out of the Divisional team as a result.

[AZOffaly]

I must say that I do not like the Kerry model of Divisional sides playing in the County Championship.  The County Championship should be for clubs only and there is something wong to have a club team playing a Divisional team picked from 6 or 7 clubs.  The club is the basic unit of the GAA and County Championships should be for club teams.   Surely a Kerry County Final between, say, Dr. Croke's and Austin Stacks is preferable to a final between Mid Kerry and East Kerry.  Would spectators really care that much who won a final between 2 Divisional teams.  i would certainly prefer to see my own club or a neighbouring one in a County Final than a Divisional selection.  I also know that the inclusion of a Divisional team in the Limerick SHC has become a bit of a farce, with some players been asked to play an Intermediate Championship match on Saturday for their club and a Senior Semi Final on Sunday for the Division.  AFAIK several players pulled out of the Divisional team as a result.

And that's one of the aruments against Onlooker, especially when it's a new process. However, I will say that in Kerry yes, absolutely the people care that much about South Kerry winning a championship. If the club gets strong enough, they can go on their own, and frequently do, but in my experience South Kerry is as much a real 'entity' with an identity as many clubs around the country.

Because they are going so long as well, these are not seen as marraiges of convenience either. These divisions represent areas, and they feel that they represent the area. That would not happen immediately if North Tipp, for example, was to field a team of intermediate or Junior clubs.

The most important thing as far as Kerry is concerned though, is that this raises their standard of championship, and I think it's a brilliant system having seen it close up. By the way, the clubs are not in any way in awe of these divisional sides. The likes of Crokes, Stacks, Rahillys etc consider themselves every bit the equal of any of the Divisions. In fairness, I should also say that some divisional sides like Saint Kierans (Castleisland, Currow etc) are a farce, or have been a farce recently. I know of some of them who played a celebrity bainisteoir game with their club the day before St. Kierans were due out in the championship. But that is the exception down there.

[tommysmith]

There are proposals to get a championship like this up and running in Cavan from 2013.

It is a great idea but it will be hard to get all clubs to buy into it and put rivarly behind them.

[AZOffaly]

There are proposals to get a championship like this up and running in Cavan from 2013.

It is a great idea but it will be hard to get all clubs to buy into it and put rivarly behind them.

As I said, for a while it will feel forced, but if the clubs give it a chance, the players will love it, especially junior players who would never play senior championship. If the divisions are somewhat natural geography wise then that's all the better. That's why I think South Kerry and West Kerry, and even East Kerry work so well. They feel like they actually represent somewhere, not just an amalgamation of clubs.

[Mike Sheehy]

I think people outside Kerry sometimes get misled by the "East Kerry" or "West Kerry" names. The East Kerry divisional team is not all of East Kerry. Dr Crokes, Kilcummin, Rathmore, Glenflesk are all East kerry clubs that have either won or advanced to a fairly late stage of the championship on their own in recent years. Once their standards drop as, inevitably, they will with with smaller rural clubs, they rejoin the divisional team.
           
Where the system might fall down is if a team like Kilcummin were denied a once in century chance to win the county by the same divisional team that they played with the previous years...! not sure if something like that has happened in the recent past. However, everybody knows the rules and its the same for everybody every year so there would be no point complaining about it.

Basically, in Kerry, the divisional championships are where the club rivalries are played out.The county championship is a different kettle of fish. I dont think anyone would claim that winning with the division would be as good as winning with the club but there is a strong divisional identity in Kerry and the county championship reflects that so it does count for a lot if your division wins and your clubmen a part of that. Much in the same way that people can row in behind the county even if it involves shouting on players who could be your biggest rivals the week before.

[brokencrossbar1]

I think it's a great idea and it works particularly well in Cork as well where the likes of the colleges or Ballydesmond are the equivalent of a club team.  They probably work so well because of geography too.  In both counties you have a lot of very small rural clubs which are smattered all over an area but don't have the numbers to bring them up to senior level.  Along the Cork/Kerry border where Ballydesmond is there are loads of them and like in Kerry would the likes of Donncha O'Connor or even the great Danny Culloty have been noticed by the Cork managers over the years if it wasn't for the divisions.  I think that for it to work you need large proportion of junior teams who won't cut it as opposed to intermediate teams.  They definitely have more to play for.

[tc_manchester]

I've got to say that I wish Tyrone would bring this in. The major problem that most counties have is that if a player for a non-senior club is not spotted by the time they are minors than they rarely get a chance to play for the county. A late developer has some chance if he's playing senior football because he can be seen in the Senior championship but a player in junior or intermediate football won't be seen. If you have divisional sides in the senior chanpionship then they can be spotted.  If you look at kerry they have Paul Galvin, Declan O'Sullivan and Bryan Sheehan from non-senior clubs. In fact if you look at the 41 players listed on the senior panel - 22 are from senior clubs, 11 from intermediate and 8 from junior. People wonder why Kerry are strong but are not winning many underage titles. I believe that much of it has to do with the way the senior championship is structured. They find the best footballers in the county no matter what club they are playing for

[AZOffaly]

I've got to say that I wish Tyrone would bring this in. The major problem that most counties have is that if a player for a non-senior club is not spotted by the time they are minors than they rarely get a chance to play for the county. A late developer has some chance if he's playing senior football because he can be seen in the Senior championship but a player in junior or intermediate football won't be seen. If you have divisional sides in the senior chanpionship then they can be spotted.  If you look at kerry they have Paul Galvin, Declan O'Sullivan and Bryan Sheehan from non-senior clubs. In fact if you look at the 41 players listed on the senior panel - 22 are from senior clubs, 11 from intermediate and 8 from junior. People wonder why Kerry are strong but are not winning many underage titles. I believe that much of it has to do with the way the senior championship is structured. They find the best footballers in the county no matter what club they are playing for

In fairness their underage championships are structured the same way. But obviously it takes time for those underage to mature and to get the benefit of playing with and against these divisional sides.

[Canalman]

All well and good IF the clubs buy into the divisional team concept. Failed miserably here in Dublin in the SHC as players/ clubs just were not interested despite the fact that there were very good lads running the regional teams in question.
Reasons given were many but some reckon it was a fear by junior/intermediate clubs that their best players would have been "poached" by bigger clubs while with the regional team ( a particularly Dublin problem I know).

Works for Kerry and fair play to them.

[LeoMc]

I've got to say that I wish Tyrone would bring this in. The major problem that most counties have is that if a player for a non-senior club is not spotted by the time they are minors than they rarely get a chance to play for the county. A late developer has some chance if he's playing senior football because he can be seen in the Senior championship but a player in junior or intermediate football won't be seen. If you have divisional sides in the senior chanpionship then they can be spotted.  If you look at kerry they have Paul Galvin, Declan O'Sullivan and Bryan Sheehan from non-senior clubs. In fact if you look at the 41 players listed on the senior panel - 22 are from senior clubs, 11 from intermediate and 8 from junior. People wonder why Kerry are strong but are not winning many underage titles. I believe that much of it has to do with the way the senior championship is structured. They find the best footballers in the county no matter what club they are playing for

Loughshore (Brocagh Derrytresk Stewartstown and Bracckaville)
South Tyrone (Killyman Moy Eglish Killeshil)
Clogher valley (Augher Clogher Aghaloo Eskra)
West Tyrone (Castlederg Aghayaran Drumquin Dregish)
North  Tyrone (Strabane Urney Clann Owen Roes)
Mid Tyrone (Lough Gortin Kildress Pomeroy)
Mid West (Beragh Fintona Drumragh T@((s).

Some interesting bedfellows!

[Ciarrai_thuaidh]

I've got to say that I wish Tyrone would bring this in. The major problem that most counties have is that if a player for a non-senior club is not spotted by the time they are minors than they rarely get a chance to play for the county. A late developer has some chance if he's playing senior football because he can be seen in the Senior championship but a player in junior or intermediate football won't be seen. If you have divisional sides in the senior chanpionship then they can be spotted.  If you look at kerry they have Paul Galvin, Declan O'Sullivan and Bryan Sheehan from non-senior clubs. In fact if you look at the 41 players listed on the senior panel - 22 are from senior clubs, 11 from intermediate and 8 from junior. People wonder why Kerry are strong but are not winning many underage titles. I believe that much of it has to do with the way the senior championship is structured. They find the best footballers in the county no matter what club they are playing for

Loughshore (Brocagh Derrytresk Stewartstown and Bracckaville)
South Tyrone (Killyman Moy Eglish Killeshil)
Clogher valley (Augher Clogher Aghaloo Eskra)
West Tyrone (Castlederg Aghayaran Drumquin Dregish)
North  Tyrone (Strabane Urney Clann Owen Roes)
Mid Tyrone (Lough Gortin Kildress Pomeroy)
Mid West (Beragh Fintona Drumragh T@((s).

Some interesting bedfellows!

That south Tyrone combo is as likely to happen as the Yanks handing Alaska back to the Russians Id say! Would be a quality side though if it did happen.

I think (for people who don't get the concept) we are lucky in Kerry in that the groupings for divisions are so natural geographically, most players will have gone to school together in a "hub" town, like Cahirciveen for South Kerry for example..its built into the system from U-14s upwards, so they get familiar with each other plenty before adult level.
I can assure you that its a huge deal for all players and supporters from all parts of a division if they do well, ask Darran O'Sullivan how much he treasures his Co. Medal with Mid-Kerry (which led to him becoming Kerry's winning captain in 2009) and I know Seamus Moynihan for example cites his 3-in-a-row with East Kerry (Glenflesk his club went on to become Senior for a while) as a massive positive influence in his career.
I think in Cork, divisions is necessary due to the sheer size and numbers involved..in Kerry, you could have a c/ship without amalgamations, but by now there is a tradition built up with them and it would dilute the quality of the c/ship massively to get rid of them.
For those interested, the divisions playing in the c/ship and the clubs involved are:

Shannon Rangers (Tarbert, Ballylongford, Asdee, Ballydonoghue, Beale, Ballyduff)
Feale Rangers (Moyvane, Duagh, Listowel Emmetts, Finuge, St.Senans, Clounmacon)
St. Kierans (Desmonds, Scartaglin,Cordal, Brosna, Knocknagoshel, Ballymacelligott, Currow)
St Brendans (Na Gaeil,Churchill,St.Pats, John Mitchels)
West Kerry (An Gaeltacht,Castlegregory,Annascaul,Lispole)
Mid Kerry (Milltown-Castlemaine,Beaufort,Glenbeigh-Glencar,Keel,Cromane)
East Kerry (Fossa,Listry, Glenflesk,Firies,Spa)
Kenmare (Kenmare,Tuosist,Templenoe,Kilgarvan)
South Kerry (St Marys,Renard,Sneem-Derrynane,Skellig Rangers,Dromid Pearses)

[Ciarrai_thuaidh]

I must say that I do not like the Kerry model of Divisional sides playing in the County Championship.  The County Championship should be for clubs only and there is something wong to have a club team playing a Divisional team picked from 6 or 7 clubs.  The club is the basic unit of the GAA and County Championships should be for club teams.   Surely a Kerry County Final between, say, Dr. Croke's and Austin Stacks is preferable to a final between Mid Kerry and East Kerry.  Would spectators really care that much who won a final between 2 Divisional teams.  i would certainly prefer to see my own club or a neighbouring one in a County Final than a Divisional selection.  I also know that the inclusion of a Divisional team in the Limerick SHC has become a bit of a farce, with some players been asked to play an Intermediate Championship match on Saturday for their club and a Senior Semi Final on Sunday for the Division.  AFAIK several players pulled out of the Divisional team as a result.

Why is there something wrong with a club team playing a divisional team? It gives lads from tiny clubs the chance to compete on an even playing field (literally) with fellas from bigger, stronger clubs..it seems inherently fair to me, to give every possible player in a county a chance of winning the Senior c/ship of that county, no matter what level they play at.

You also state that "i would certainly prefer to see my own club or a neighbouring one in a County Final than a Divisional selection."..which I can't believe..you would rather see a rival team have success rather than have an amalgamation team with say 6/7 players from your own club involved? Sounds pretty backward as an outlook to me.

[tc_manchester]

You're quite correct Ciarrai_thuaidh - I believe that every decent footballer in a county should have a chance to win a senior championship medal. Also from a county perspective since Kerry have won 30+ all-irelands there must be something in how they structure themselves internally which has made it happen. In truth kerry is isolated within an essentially hurling province. If having few competitors within a province was all that was required then Antrim & Galway would be sitting on 20 All-Ireland hurling championships each.