Integrated Education: Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down?

[brokencrossbar1]

A Big Thumbs Down!

Any reasons why?

Integrated education will dilute our culture and its importance.  There will be no or little emphasis on our sports, language, dance, music etc, as there would be in an all catholic school.  Kids will be growing up playing hockey or badminton instead of GAA, and learning german instead of Irish.  A big NO for me!

Whatever about the dance etc the biggest threat to the promotion of GAA in primary schools is the lack of young male primary school teachers.  The majority of primary school teachers are women and while you will have some who are GAA orientated it is less likely than if they were men.  My 2 youngest ones are at an integrated primary school and it is excellent, in regards to academic levels.  It is probably split 65-35 in favour of catholics and they have a very broad and rounded education.  They receive all the scarements and have a very christian approach.  The GAA were send a coach to the school every week to help out with PE and do some football.  I also volunteer once a week to coach football to any kid above P3.  I believe that, certainly at primary school level it will continue to expand but I do see that longterm it will be very difficult to break the Grammar school situation, simply due to the success of the Grammar school sector.

[Maguire01]

Thumbs down, I've spoken to people who attended integrated schools here in Belfast and they said that there was bullying on religious grounds happening in the school on a regular basis

When I was at school, some children were bullied for having big ears. Should we have a separate system for children with big ears?

Seriously though, bullying in schools? It can only be down to mixing with 'themmuns'.

[Maguire01]

How many Integrated schools are legally integrated, i.e. have at least 30% pupils from the local minority community?

How many have achieved the ideal of 40:40:10?

In N.Ireland many people live in areas with people of a similar religion and their children attend the local school which will usually cater for the people of the area.  This is a consequence of the nature of the N.Ireland's polarisation which was sharpened by 40 years of sectarian strife. 

After over twenty years of Integrated education less than 10% of all children attend Integrated schools despite the formation of such schools being a policy of the government through out this time.

How many Catholic schools prevent non-Catholic children from attending them?  None

How many state controlled schools prevent catholic children from attending them? None

Despite this, less than 5% of children attend schools considered outside their denomination and most of these are catholics attending non-denominational grammar schools?

Did schools cause the troubles and sectarian strife?  No.

Integration cannot be achieved until housing becomes integrated. In most towns, people live and socialise according to their religious denomination.

The point is that an integrated sector should not be competing with established segregated sectors. There should only be one sector. That should be the norm.

If we were designing the system from scratch now, would we have two separate school systems? If not, why should we be happy with that to continue now?

There is no such thing as a "segregated sector" there is choice between four setups. If parents and children choose to segregate then that is their choice.

That's semantics. The two main sectors (CCMS and State) are effectively segregated. Would it also be the choice of parents and children if they chose to segregate along race lines?

[Eamonnca1]

That's semantics. The two main sectors (CCMS and State) are effectively segregated.

Correct. Even Peter Robinson alluded to the fact that the state sector might "in theory" be open to all, in practice they have become protestant schools and need to have their ethos adjusted to become more attractive to catholics, while the catholic sector shouldn't get so much state support.  I'm with Peadar on that one.

[Eamonnca1]

I'm sure Take Your Points could tell you about the introduction of the likes of rugby and soccer into his school to give his students a wide as sporting outlet as possible especially for those who are simply not interested in the GAA.

While we don't have the dancing as required by BennyCake, as well as the rugby and soccer we have included boxing and last June we won u-14 inter-school tennis B competition beating some of the larger schools in Belfast.  We intend to have a greater push on soccer and athletics in the coming year.  Sport can be the great integrator.

We played Gaelic football at our taig school, although they never taught us hurling no matter how much I nagged them to do so.  We also did soccer, basketball, athletics, table tennis, hockey, gymnastics and plenty more. My only complaint was there being too much emphasis on soccer which I hated with a passion. Still, I never felt like my racial purity was being compromised by it.

[ExcellentDriver]

My experience of Catholic Education is it has produced a Generation of Resentful Kids who end up hating ALL Regions as a result.

This isn't exclusive to Ireland, many of those American Celebrities with an agenda against Christianity all went to Catholic Schools (or had a Catholic upbringing).

After all that has happened with the Paedophile Priests, we can't afford to mass produce Resentful Generations one after another. Life is too short to hold such grudges.

I have now decided that I'd take any kids I may have to an Integrated Secondary. Sperrin Integrated in Magherafelt has a GAA Program (with a few players receiving Vocational All-Stars).

[Ulick]

How many Integrated schools are legally integrated, i.e. have at least 30% pupils from the local minority community?

How many have achieved the ideal of 40:40:10?

In N.Ireland many people live in areas with people of a similar religion and their children attend the local school which will usually cater for the people of the area.  This is a consequence of the nature of the N.Ireland's polarisation which was sharpened by 40 years of sectarian strife. 

After over twenty years of Integrated education less than 10% of all children attend Integrated schools despite the formation of such schools being a policy of the government through out this time.

How many Catholic schools prevent non-Catholic children from attending them?  None

How many state controlled schools prevent catholic children from attending them? None

Despite this, less than 5% of children attend schools considered outside their denomination and most of these are catholics attending non-denominational grammar schools?

Did schools cause the troubles and sectarian strife?  No.

Integration cannot be achieved until housing becomes integrated. In most towns, people live and socialise according to their religious denomination.

The point is that an integrated sector should not be competing with established segregated sectors. There should only be one sector. That should be the norm.

If we were designing the system from scratch now, would we have two separate school systems? If not, why should we be happy with that to continue now?

There is no such thing as a "segregated sector" there is choice between four setups. If parents and children choose to segregate then that is their choice.

That's semantics. The two main sectors (CCMS and State) are effectively segregated. Would it also be the choice of parents and children if they chose to segregate along race lines?

Semantics? Nonsense, as has already been pointed out to you state, CCMS and Irish medium as open to all, with Irish medium being the only truely secular education system in NI. It's by no means ideal but at least there is parental choice. What people choose to do with that choice is no buisness of anyone else. Certainly none of my children would be attending any kind of Peter Robinsons reformed Northern Ireland "state" schools.

[Eamonnca1]

Certainly none of my children would be attending any kind of Peter Robinsons reformed Northern Ireland "state" schools.

Even if their ethos ends up being the same as today's integrated schools?

[Eamonnca1]

Semantics? Nonsense, as has already been pointed out to you state, CCMS and Irish medium as open to all, with Irish medium being the only truely secular education system in NI. It's by no means ideal but at least there is parental choice. What people choose to do with that choice is no buisness of anyone else. Certainly none of my children would be attending any kind of Peter Robinsons reformed Northern Ireland "state" schools.

I've just realised something. You say that CCMS schools are open to all, so are you saying that there's no reason why a non catholic would not want to go there?

Well the state sector is "open to all" too, so surely there's nothing stopping a non prod from going there.

[Ulick]

Certainly none of my children would be attending any kind of Peter Robinsons reformed Northern Ireland "state" schools.

Even if their ethos ends up being the same as today's integrated schools?

Especially if their ethos ends up being the same as the majority today's "integrated" schools.

[Ulick]

Semantics? Nonsense, as has already been pointed out to you state, CCMS and Irish medium as open to all, with Irish medium being the only truely secular education system in NI. It's by no means ideal but at least there is parental choice. What people choose to do with that choice is no buisness of anyone else. Certainly none of my children would be attending any kind of Peter Robinsons reformed Northern Ireland "state" schools.

I've just realised something. You say that CCMS schools are open to all, so are you saying that there's no reason why a non catholic would not want to go there?

Well the state sector is "open to all" too, so surely there's nothing stopping a non prod from going there.

I couldn't care less where a Catholic or Protestant send their children. Religious instruction should come from the home not schools. Now if you are carelessly using catholic and prod as a euphemism for Irish and British, then that's another matter. If so, I can understand why unionists may not want to send their children to CCMS, likewise I wouldn't have mine anywhere near "state" or "integrated".

[Tony Baloney]

How many Integrated schools are legally integrated, i.e. have at least 30% pupils from the local minority community?

How many have achieved the ideal of 40:40:10?

In N.Ireland many people live in areas with people of a similar religion and their children attend the local school which will usually cater for the people of the area.  This is a consequence of the nature of the N.Ireland's polarisation which was sharpened by 40 years of sectarian strife. 

After over twenty years of Integrated education less than 10% of all children attend Integrated schools despite the formation of such schools being a policy of the government through out this time.

How many Catholic schools prevent non-Catholic children from attending them?  None

How many state controlled schools prevent catholic children from attending them? None

Despite this, less than 5% of children attend schools considered outside their denomination and most of these are catholics attending non-denominational grammar schools?

Did schools cause the troubles and sectarian strife?  No.

Integration cannot be achieved until housing becomes integrated. In most towns, people live and socialise according to their religious denomination.

The point is that an integrated sector should not be competing with established segregated sectors. There should only be one sector. That should be the norm.

If we were designing the system from scratch now, would we have two separate school systems? If not, why should we be happy with that to continue now?

There is no such thing as a "segregated sector" there is choice between four setups. If parents and children choose to segregate then that is their choice.

That's semantics. The two main sectors (CCMS and State) are effectively segregated. Would it also be the choice of parents and children if they chose to segregate along race lines?

Semantics? Nonsense, as has already been pointed out to you state, CCMS and Irish medium as open to all, with Irish medium being the only truely secular education system in NI. It's by no means ideal but at least there is parental choice. What people choose to do with that choice is no buisness of anyone else. Certainly none of my children would be attending any kind of Peter Robinsons reformed Northern Ireland "state" schools.

That's because you don't like Prods. Why waste your time trying to justify your position on integrated education.

[Ulick]

I don't particularly like Catholics either so how does that figure into 'analysis' of my position "integrated education"? I'm a big supporter of integrated education though.

[ONeill]

Integrated education is the only way to go insofar that in the not too distant future the word 'integrated' will have little value. A fairly high percentage of the present younger generations don't give a fiddlers about religion. It's only kept alive by the 12th season, certain geographical boundaries and Old Firm games. Their children will place even less emphasis on it.

There are many Catholic schools who are that only in name or supposed ethos. Scrape gently at it and you'll see it barely exists with any value.

[Orangemac]

If there is to be any normalisation of society in the North then integrated education will have to become more widespread than the 10% quoted.

A lot of people agree with it in theory but you would have to see what it would offer in terms of dealing with religion, history and culture etc. I never had any dealings with the other side until I went to the tech when I surprisingly found a lot of Protestants were actually all right.

Children share buses with each other going to primary school and have no problems. It is only when they get older that differences become an issue.