Integrated Education: Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down?

[Oraisteach]

With a new school year ready to kick off, I was wondering about the whole issue of integrated secondary schools.  Are they more popular now?  How successful are they academically, and how well do they dismantle the sectarian biases present in some communities?    Have any board members attended one?  Is integrated education desirable?

[The Iceman]

I'd be interested in hearing people's opinions on this who have some experience. It seems to work well here on many levels in America and also has some down sides.

I know there are more and more popping up throughout the North of Ireland, albeit smaller schools.

Anyone out there have kids in attendance?

I don't know if they can dismantle sectarian biases in hard core areas. I see these schools in neutral enough zones (could be wrong on that).

[ardchieftain]

Integrated schools are the way forward and from talking to the many people i know who attended such schools, yes, sectarianism is exposed for what it is.

In saying that the integrated secondary schools wouldn't have the best academic results which is definitely a worry, so much so that some relations and neighbours decided to attend other schools.

[Tony Baloney]

The integrated secondary in Armagh was a shambles and closed within a couple of years.

[Ulick]

The "integrated sector" in NI - "holier-than-thou", "wouldn't Our Wee Country be great if we all got along", middle class types who bought into the myth that religion was the cause of all our ills. The simple fact is that no child is barred from any "state" or CCMS school and if there is a problem with sectarianism it doesn't come from the schools but from the parents and community. The sector now consist of schools populated mostly by children who can't get a place anywhere else or "state" schools who, due to falling numbers, have re-branded themselves as "integrated" in order to get extra support. Integrated education (in the true meaning of the expression) may be the further but "integrated education" is certainly not. 

[dillinger]

Thumbs up.

[long grass]

Having attended an integrated primary during my formative years I can say that it was some respects as good as if not better than a lot of the small rural primary schools that exist within our part of the world. I think it was enriching to have some experience early on of different religions not just the obvious two still being able to do holy communion, confirmation etc. However in saying that when it came to making the step into secondary the standard of education to be gained at the catholic grammar was far superior. It was interesting to see the Protestant folk go off to a Royal School while the catholics went to the local catholic grammar having been together for many years. The secondary education system based on religion is steeped in history and is of a good standard which is certainly something to be proud of. What doesn't make sense is these tiny rural schools struggling to have enough pupils and a small protestant school up the road with the same problem. Surely putting them in together at an early age is better for many reasons including financially.

[Oraisteach]

Tony, what in your view caused the demise of integrated schools in Armagh?  Where were they located?  What exactly do you mean that they were a "shambles"?

Ulick, religion, per se, doesn't necessarily cause sectarianism, but surely keeping the two sides apart promotes misconceptions.  Speaking for myself, educated shortly after the invention of cace writing, I went to an all-Catholic (CBS) school and didn't meet a Protestant until I was 16 (apart from the one boy who did not receive the city-wide memo and nevertheless enrolled).  I sometimes wonder how things would have been different had I been educated at an integrated school. 

[Groucho]

Sent both my kids to Integrated primary in Armagh and I thought it was a good school. The truth is though that the kids attitudes come from the parents....in other words kids from bigoted parents were still going to be bigoted.

The Secondary was a disaster from day one with crap appointments as principal, leading to friction with the staff, which led to long term sick leave which in turn was kept from the parents, until a few like myself queried why there was little homework, no feedback on any work, and no reports. A parents meeting was called and when I learnt the truth I immediately removed my son from the school. Best move I ever made.

In reality Armagh was never going to have the numbers to sustain the school. 

[Ulick]

Tony, what in your view caused the demise of integrated schools in Armagh?  Where were they located?  What exactly do you mean that they were a "shambles"?

Ulick, religion, per se, doesn't necessarily cause sectarianism, but surely keeping the two sides apart promotes misconceptions.  Speaking for myself, educated shortly after the invention of cace writing, I went to an all-Catholic (CBS) school and didn't meet a Protestant until I was 16 (apart from the one boy who did not receive the city-wide memo and nevertheless enrolled).  I sometimes wonder how things would have been different had I been educated at an integrated school.

I didn't meet a woman until I was 16, didn't stop me loving them all the same.

[Tony Baloney]

Tony, what in your view caused the demise of integrated schools in Armagh?  Where were they located?  What exactly do you mean that they were a "shambles"?

Ulick, religion, per se, doesn't necessarily cause sectarianism, but surely keeping the two sides apart promotes misconceptions.  Speaking for myself, educated shortly after the invention of cace writing, I went to an all-Catholic (CBS) school and didn't meet a Protestant until I was 16 (apart from the one boy who did not receive the city-wide memo and nevertheless enrolled).  I sometimes wonder how things would have been different had I been educated at an integrated school.

Number of reasons - the locals didn't buy in to the whole concept so it had low numbers some of whom seemed to have been "problem pupils" from other schools. The head was also suspended due to allegations of workplace bullying. The final nail in the coffin was a disastrous inspection http://apps.deni.gov.uk/insp/inspection_reports/2007_06/standard_inspection_armagh_integrated_college.PDF

[Maguire01]

The "integrated sector" in NI - "holier-than-thou", "wouldn't Our Wee Country be great if we all got along", middle class types who bought into the myth that religion was the cause of all our ills. The simple fact is that no child is barred from any "state" or CCMS school and if there is a problem with sectarianism it doesn't come from the schools but from the parents and community. The sector now consist of schools populated mostly by children who can't get a place anywhere else or "state" schools who, due to falling numbers, have re-branded themselves as "integrated" in order to get extra support. Integrated education (in the true meaning of the expression) may be the further but "integrated education" is certainly not.

"myth that religion was the cause of all our ills"? I would have thought that it was about segregation of different communities - the religious element is only a detail of that. You say that sectarianism doesn't come from schools but from parents and the communities - that ignores the role that schools have in shaping communities and influencing the next generation of parents. And to say that no child is 'barred' from a specific sector is disingenuous and offers no solution.

Also, I don't understand your point about those in integrated schools only being there because they can't get get a place elsewhere. I've never heard that before and can't understand where that would be the case. What schools are these children being rejected from and why? You've already said that no child is barred from any school.

All schools should be state schools with 'religious education' at Sunday schools or equivalent.

Integration is the only way forward. We wouldn't accept different schools for black children and white children, so why accept the current scenario?

[Maguire01]

Tony, what in your view caused the demise of integrated schools in Armagh?  Where were they located?  What exactly do you mean that they were a "shambles"?

Ulick, religion, per se, doesn't necessarily cause sectarianism, but surely keeping the two sides apart promotes misconceptions.  Speaking for myself, educated shortly after the invention of cace writing, I went to an all-Catholic (CBS) school and didn't meet a Protestant until I was 16 (apart from the one boy who did not receive the city-wide memo and nevertheless enrolled).  I sometimes wonder how things would have been different had I been educated at an integrated school.

I didn't meet a woman until I was 16, didn't stop me loving them all the same.

Not even outside of school?

[BennyCake]

A Big Thumbs Down!

[Maguire01]

A Big Thumbs Down!

Any reasons why?