Dún na nGall v Cill Dara

[spuds]

/quote]
To be half Lilly ?

[Sportacus]

Kildare don't help themselves - missed a few handy frees during the match.  They couldn't half be doing with a couple of extra forwards who can kick a point.  They won't catch Cork, Kerry, Tyrone (even Dublin) unless they can find a few more natural forwards. 
Karl Lacey was unreal, in fact that whole Donegal half back line are playing well.  Thompson doesn't get a lot of headlines but he gets on the ball a lot.   

[lynchbhoy]

Negative tactics aside - Donegal have been damn lucky this year with big decisions, penalties not given against them, panalties given to them and a clear goal disallowed... can it continue?

Donegal deserve credit for raw hunger and work rate. McGuinness knows they are not good enough to compete in open attacking terms so has given them a game plan that is working. Awful to watch but there is not a team left in the c'ship who will want to play them now.

There is one thing that really bugs me though and that is the fact that Donegal have perfected the strategic foul. They foul consistantly in certain areas of the pitch to kill the pace and break attacks, allowing them to get back in numbers to swarm defence and gain turnovers. You will notice that different players do the fouling (never same player twice in a row) so as to avoid yellow cards. When referees start to act against cynical fouling then the game will be less defensive and Donegals game plan will drastically reduce its impact.

for every time you have mentioned 'Donegal' in the above, you could and should have written ' Donegal and Kildare'.

I'd also not fully accept that both managers dont think they are good enough. Just they know that a defensive approach wins games in most major contact ball sports including gaelic football.

[AZOffaly]

I really enjoyed that day out yesterday, and the intensity and sheer willpower both teams in the third match displayed was unreal. I felt Kildare were probably the more dominant in terms of battles around the field, but they did struggle against Donegal's defensive power. Especially any time when they dithered a little in getting the ball in. Kavanagh was disappointing, and I thought Geezer made a mistake bringing off O'Connor, or at least not replacing him with Sweeney immediately. That negated the Kildare option on the longer ball, which they were mixing well with the more measured buildup in the first half I thought.

Felt really sorry for Johnny Doyle, just didn't happen for him, and he looked like he was hampered all day, he got a bad auld dunt from the throw in that looked like a dead leg, and he wasn't really right. To lose by 1 point and for that game to be the first in 53 games that you don't score must be sickening.

Darren Flynn, Hugh McGrillen and Mick Foley were great, as was Morgan O'Flaherty at centre back. Kildare's tactic of attacking the blanket defence with normal numbers, and leaving O'Flaherty and a few others to mind the house in case of turnovers worked very well I thought.

For Donegal, Lacey was brilliant, as was McGee. Some substitution by Jimmy to bring on Christy Toye as well

We were sitting down near that goal that Tomás O'Connor's goal was disallowed, and we felt it wasn't a square ball, but it was fairly obvious the umpires were far from convinced. They dithered a bit, and I think the green flag lad only put it up because the ball crossed the line basically. As soon as Coldrick came in, he seemed very anxious to wave it off. (The umpire I mean).

I thought Kildare and Donegal showed great old fashioned guts as well, slugging it out like two heavyweights. Both of them coming back from leads that looked huge in the context of a tight game. When Donegal scored the goal, I thought Kildare were dead, but they came back brilliantly. When Kildare went 3 points up in the second period of extra time, I thought Donegal were dead, but they did likewise.

I do feel that Kildare tied up (whether it was a physical tiredness or a mental tiredness I can't say - either would have been excusable) when they went 3 points up. They looked like they were going into their shell and were using the tactical foul to give themselves breathing space. They didn't reckon on Michael Murphy kicking 50 metre frees though, especially after Johnny Doyle's hand trip on the Donegal lad outside the 45.

All that said, I felt the game was finally decided on an incident when Kildare were a point up with about 1 minute left of extra time. Donegal had gone from a position where they couldn't win a raffle in the middle of the field to a position where they were winning everything, in one of those ebbs and flows that happened. Kildare managed to win one ball, brought it out the field and a decent ball went into Alan Smith about 13 metres out. If he had managed to even kick the ball wide, I think Kildare might have held on. Instead he was dispossessed too easily, the ball was worked up the Donegal right, the Kildare forwards couldn't track back and Donegal equalised.

I wasn't surprised when Cassidy kicked the winner after that, because the equaliser felt like the real body blow.

It wasn't an open game, but I thought it was fascinating, and when you see the Donegal fans staying back to give Kildare a standing ovation coming off, you know it's been a hell of a battle.

[INDIANA]

I really enjoyed that, second half on was class IMO, the intensity reminded me of the Armagh v Tyrone 2005 semi at times.  I watched it on BBC 2 and Sky+ RTE's coverage - which failed so I didn't hear their take on it at all, BBC weren't pushing it as a great game - but I really thought it was.  Lady luck probably deserted Kildare again but 3 or 4 years in row with excuses probably means there is something missing there? I think McGeeney will go as well, I doubt he can bring them on any further.

Fair play to Donegal, they will be really hard to talk to in the coming years as the turnaround within 1 season is unreal, if they remain committed they will develop into a serious side.  It can be hard to watch at times, but it's all about getting the defence right and building from there, I fully expect that they'll become more expansive as they gel further.  That game alone will bring them on a bagful. Cassidy's winner was a thing of beauty.  They've no reason to fear the winner of next week's game.

Lady Luck didnt desert Kildare they were done out of it by the officials.

Thats the bottom line. O Connor's goal stands its game over.

Cant take anything away from Donegal- great comeback in extra time but they were beaten had O Connor's goal stood.

As it should have.

Kildare arent good enough to win the all-ireland but they were good enough to win today. And they would have had the goal stood.

A game takes on a different dynamic once a score is given, unless the ref was going to blow for full-time straight after the 'goal'?  Donegal scored 4 points to win the game in extra time after being level at FT and down 3 in ET, so they were obviously well capable of clawing back a lead. To say Kildare would have won if their 'goal' had counted is an exercise in arithmetic that doesn't take into account the plethora of things that can happen in any game and once again it's the sort of short-sighted(shite) analysis that I'd expect from yourself. 

I also doubt you were at the game.

With respect how would you know if I was at the game?  . Have you got a webcam on me?

An imbecile could say Donegal werent coming back from a 6 point deficit. At that juncture of the game Donegal's efforts at scoring resembled watching the Faroe Islands trying to score at soccer.

The disallowed goal woke Donegal up for some proverbial reason and got Mc Guinness to actually send on a few forwards like Christy Toye ( a class player) in deference to some of the others we had ahead of him. Donegal decided to commit to attack for once.

The system was again shown up in the final 10 minutes of normal time when Donegal committed to defence- didnt win one breaking ball for the entire period and against a more competent forward line would have lost the game.

this system doesnt work and Donegal play their best football when in attack mode. Its depressing to watch a team with a lot of very good footballers play in such a negative fashion.

You'd have to admire lads like Lacey, Cassidy and Magee for theri defensive qualities though- they were brilliant yesterday and won them the game.

[Dinny Breen]

From GAA.ie Rules
2.4 (i) A maximum of five substitutions shall be


allowed during the playing of Normal Time.
A maximum of three Substitutions shall be
allowed during the playing of Extra Time.
Temporary Substitutions are also permitted]during the playing of both Normal Time and extra Time, as provided for in Rule 1.5(b) Rules
of Control - Injuries: Blood

According to the Kildare forum and boards.ie Donegal used 5 subs in ET - can anyone clarify this?

[AZOffaly]

Indy, Christy Toye came on for Colm McFadden. That wasn't exactly a statement of intent, just a reflection that Hughie McGrillen had McFadden in his pocket. (Although McFadden had ironically just kicked a great point).

[lynchbhoy]

an enthralling game and while the purists might not like it, this was a fantastic display of how to defend.
not just the swarmed masses behind the ball, but the art of tackling, stripping the ball, a few blocks but
most of all defenders getting out in front of their man and reading the game.
I always thought before yesterday that Karl Lacey would be motm. He is in sensational form and is the key man in their
system if not team. He was equally aided byt the fantastic Neil and then Eamonn mcgee. Kevin Cassidy got better as the game wore on.
Kildare had men like McGrillen and the imo out of position Morgan oFlaherty vying for motm. Flynn was the outstanding player in the middle of the field yesterday. Wing half forwards OCallaghan and Oneill again outstanding.All all star nominees.
Doyle was obv hurt early on and with Murphy inj and mcfadden out of sorts we were robbed of the game's star forwards and thus the last hope of some scoring fireworks. Still as the film gladiator said ' are you not entertained' ?
Credit to both camps for their defensive work.
Its a lot harder to play as a defensive team AND have a potent attack.
Interesting to see two defensive system teams struggle against each other.

IMO Donegal didnt play as they can yesterday , partially because they werent let and they were not used to coming up against a team with similar system as themselves !
Kildare have faced a Dublin blnket defence and that taught them a lot .Kildare should have won this game yesterday .The notion after last week that kildare can score  from distance was proven to be a long way off the mark. Derry dont mark tightly and even Mayo (sorry lads) would score a bagful in croker against us with such slack marking.
Maybe Donegal lacked croker experience but if they misfire again, they will be not win.
Also interesting to see both teams take the foot off the gas when up by three points, firstly Donegal 10 mins near the end, missing a couple of easy chances to score points and thus kill off the game, then it was Kildare in ET who had the game at their mercy and seemed to freeze rather than kill it off. this killer instinct is what makes champions- Tyrone, Kerry and on occasion Cork posess this.

McGuinness brings research and tactical thinking to the game that goes above and beyond what any person who has dabbled with management would want to have to devote to the game and I get a pain in the cranium contemplating the amount of work to replicate this.
Still football is a simple game - there has to be a better way ? Maybe not unless you have the squad of Cork at your disposal.
Kieran mcgeeney has done wonderful things for kildare. Brought them out of a shell and comfort zone,changes structures in the county squad setup. For years Kildare along with Cavan were the richest county board in the country - not because of any sheikh - but because (unlike Cavan) they just wouldnt spend a penny.
However, this is mcGeeneys first managerial job. He is still feeling and finding his way. No amount of other insightful rookies he
might bring in with him will be able to bring this up and on any further imo. He could 'get lucky' but McGeeney has outdone himself, but the kildare team need an experienced man, a tactician with a bit more flair to come in- not change the defensive structure too much, but enable a more potent attack. Glen Ryan or indeed Jason Ryan (imo the latter) would be the best men for this. Kildare have men who can score , but Kildare are not setup (apart from when playing a slack marking Derry for example) to allow these men to score under the current system.
Both teams can follow the Tyrone model though. They were ultra defensive in Hartes first years , but expanded their game to become more balanced and provide a more attacking threat thereafter- and not solely reliant on frees.
Two up and coming teams, though as I say, I fear that McGeeney needs a few more years elsewhere to really deliver on potential.
A Jason Ryan for example may be the final piece of the equation that Kildare need in order to compete for Sam.
McGuinness has coached previously in club and county u21 and can draw on this experience , they should be contenders for the next few seasons.
It might be beyond them this year, but if Murphy gets fit - dont rule them out.

[AZOffaly]

From GAA.ie Rules
2.4 (i) A maximum of five substitutions shall be


allowed during the playing of Normal Time.
A maximum of three Substitutions shall be
allowed during the playing of Extra Time.
Temporary Substitutions are also permitted]during the playing of both Normal Time and extra Time, as provided for in Rule 1.5(b) Rules
of Control - Injuries: Blood

According to the Kildare forum and boards.ie Donegal used 5 subs in ET - can anyone clarify this?

This again Dinny?

[lynchbhoy]

I was disappointed in the ref yesterday - he had a superb season last year , but has been a bit under par so far this year.
I know I harp on about hawkeye and video technology. The more games go on this season, the more I believe this is required.
OK I didnt have the best view of the Kildare square ball goal, but I thought the goal should have stood but yes, there is the question whether OConors foot was in the square. Video replays would answer this continual problem. Donegal and kildare both fouled cynically and if the ref had pulled this up early on, the game would have been a more flowing contest as yellow carded players would know thy couldnt pull or third man tackle/block a run all through the game as it then turned out.
Not trying to be hard on Donegal, but there were two scores they received that should have been frees out plus a free could have been awarded in the last kildare attack before Cassidy's winning score - the ref had been giving them all day long - an easier free was given to Kildare to equalise just before full time.
On the other hand that full time equaliser and a few other scores were gifted to kildare when they were not deserved. Kildare's first point came from in a john doyle free going wide and OConnor illegally going outside the playing area to jump back in and fist the ball to Flaherty to score.Yes ref anorak time, but that point should not have stood. Later illegal scores from a free (after Sweeney played the ball on the ground)
and that end of FT equaliser to me make it actually even - both teams ended up with an equal amount of incorrect scores for/against them that balances out equally.
That said, Kildare's general play for mean should have meant they won the game. It shows that posession doesnt always count for feck all in sport.
Credit to Donegal for staying in the game while being completely wiped out - though their giving the ball away so cheaply must worry McGuinness.
The ref didnt mean to make these mistakes but a second ref/video ref should be implemented to assist him and to give teams the fairest possible chance - but the ref and refs of all future games MUST address cynical fouling (not to mention the bit of gamesmanship and diving done by both teams as well as the feigning inj to eat up time) if we are to eradicate this systematic persistent cynical fouling out of the game.

[Dinny Breen]

Only asking the question, would be a serious advantage.

Ye feckers got away with it the last time, should have brought ye to the high court 

[Donnellys Hollow]

Only one man can sum up how the rest of us Kildare folk are feeling this morning:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOG9C9oaHN0

[BarryBreensBandage]

Agree with you AZ - it made for great viewing.

And I see the parallels drawn to the Armagh Tyrone match in 05 - I have never seen two teams that wanted to win so much since then.

There are a lot of comments about negative tactics and crap football; I reckon that this is down to the amazing display of defensive work and tackling shown by both teams. No player had a second to settle on the ball. And how many times did we see the defender out in front of the forward winning the ball clean? Brilliant.

There was a very low free rate inside scoring areas for both teams which requires a tremendous discipline.

And all this crack about football and how it should be played. Down apparently aspire to that and look at what happened them last week. A nice team playing nice football.
The first port of call of any team is work rate, and willlingness to win - that was there in spades last night.

The ref did get some things wrong, but in a match of that intensity, I thought he performed very well.
Especially, one time, when McHugh fouled in midfield and there was a break on for Kildare. He let the free be taken so that Kildare still had the advantage, and called McHugh back for a yellow card after the attack had ended.
Excellent refereeing, which I would like to see instilled in all games, and which would minimise tactical fouling.

[lynchbhoy]

From GAA.ie Rules
2.4 (i) A maximum of five substitutions shall be


allowed during the playing of Normal Time.
A maximum of three Substitutions shall be
allowed during the playing of Extra Time.
Temporary Substitutions are also permitted]during the playing of both Normal Time and extra Time, as provided for in Rule 1.5(b) Rules
of Control - Injuries: Blood

According to the Kildare forum and boards.ie Donegal used 5 subs in ET - can anyone clarify this?

according to the paper you are correct
Donegal used 5 subs in ET - you are only permitted to use 3 , I dont recall any of them being blood subs.

Rafferty and McFadden came on for McElhinney and Molloy 70th min
Gallagher came on for rafferty 80th min
Molloy came on for McFadden 82 min
McBrearth came on for Bradley 88 min

is there an objection coming from Kildare....?

[Dinny Breen]

an enthralling game and while the purists might not like it, this was a fantastic display of how to defend.
not just the swarmed masses behind the ball, but the art of tackling, stripping the ball, a few blocks but
most of all defenders getting out in front of their man and reading the game.
I always thought before yesterday that Karl Lacey would be motm. He is in sensational form and is the key man in their
system if not team. He was equally aided byt the fantastic Neil and then Eamonn mcgee. Kevin Cassidy got better as the game wore on.
Kildare had men like McGrillen and the imo out of position Morgan oFlaherty vying for motm. Flynn was the outstanding player in the middle of the field yesterday. Wing half forwards OCallaghan and Oneill again outstanding.All all star nominees.
Doyle was obv hurt early on and with Murphy inj and mcfadden out of sorts we were robbed of the game's star forwards and thus the last hope of some scoring fireworks. Still as the film gladiator said ' are you not entertained' ?
Credit to both camps for their defensive work.
Its a lot harder to play as a defensive team AND have a potent attack.
Interesting to see two defensive system teams struggle against each other.

IMO Donegal didnt play as they can yesterday , partially because they werent let and they were not used to coming up against a team with similar system as themselves !
Kildare have faced a Dublin blnket defence and that taught them a lot .Kildare should have won this game yesterday .The notion after last week that kildare can score  from distance was proven to be a long way off the mark. Derry dont mark tightly and even Mayo (sorry lads) would score a bagful in croker against us with such slack marking.
Maybe Donegal lacked croker experience but if they misfire again, they will be not win.
Also interesting to see both teams take the foot off the gas when up by three points, firstly Donegal 10 mins near the end, missing a couple of easy chances to score points and thus kill off the game, then it was Kildare in ET who had the game at their mercy and seemed to freeze rather than kill it off. this killer instinct is what makes champions- Tyrone, Kerry and on occasion Cork posess this.

McGuinness brings research and tactical thinking to the game that goes above and beyond what any person who has dabbled with management would want to have to devote to the game and I get a pain in the cranium contemplating the amount of work to replicate this.
Still football is a simple game - there has to be a better way ? Maybe not unless you have the squad of Cork at your disposal.
Kieran mcgeeney has done wonderful things for kildare. Brought them out of a shell and comfort zone,changes structures in the county squad setup. For years Kildare along with Cavan were the richest county board in the country - not because of any sheikh - but because (unlike Cavan) they just wouldnt spend a penny.
However, this is mcGeeneys first managerial job. He is still feeling and finding his way. No amount of other insightful rookies he
might bring in with him will be able to bring this up and on any further imo. He could 'get lucky' but McGeeney has outdone himself, but the kildare team need an experienced man, a tactician with a bit more flair to come in- not change the defensive structure too much, but enable a more potent attack. Glen Ryan or indeed Jason Ryan (imo the latter) would be the best men for this. Kildare have men who can score , but Kildare are not setup (apart from when playing a slack marking Derry for example) to allow these men to score under the current system.
Both teams can follow the Tyrone model though. They were ultra defensive in Hartes first years , but expanded their game to become more balanced and provide a more attacking threat thereafter- and not solely reliant on frees.
Two up and coming teams, though as I say, I fear that McGeeney needs a few more years elsewhere to really deliver on potential.
A Jason Ryan for example may be the final piece of the equation that Kildare need in order to compete for Sam.
McGuinness has coached previously in club and county u21 and can draw on this experience , they should be contenders for the next few seasons.
It might be beyond them this year, but if Murphy gets fit - dont rule them out.

Spot on Lynchbhoy - first time in a while that we agree. Too early for managerial discussions despite the sense spoken.