The Race for the ARAS.....

[Ulick]

Ulick, Hardy's response is no more a rant than Pangurban's. Is it only those from the 6 counties who are allowed to express their frustrations at their fellow Irishmen's narcissistic and self-orientated outlook.

Pangurban raises some very good points which deserve better than a rant from Hardy and pathetic attempt at satire by O'Neill. Namely:

1. The Irish media industry stand exposed as partisan, untruthful and incompetent
2. Irish society has been exposed as devoid of vision
3. an inability to learn from past mistakes
4. Northern Nationalists have seen their aspirations trampled upon

These are four very salient aspects to the Presidential campaign and coverage so far and deserve rational debate not hyperbolic rant against imagined slights.

Hardy has it spot on and that only backs it up. As someone said recently "Why always me?"

Go on...

[Evil Genius]

Northern Nationalists have seen their aspirations trampled upon and are now totally abandoned.

Yep, that's right, "abandoned" to the Ballot Box and the Debating Chamber.

Oh for the Good Old Days, when this man used to tell it like it is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzvpMlHuIrs&feature=related

When your colonial masters treat you with more respect than your fellow countryman, the time has come to consider your position.

But isn't that the whole point?

Isn't considering your own position too painful when the only conclusion to be drawn is that after 90 years, "Armed Struggle" was never going to bring about your cherished United Ireland; nor will SF's 25%(?) of the vote in NI, even when combined with 15%(?) in the Republic;  and even if it somehow could, any United Ireland you found yourself in would not be anything like that which you struggled for down the decades?

Let's face it, your "position" has been reduced to one of collaboration with the Brits in a glorified County Council in the North, whilst acting as the Barker in a Side Show in the Travelling Circus that passes for politics in the Free State, whilst ordinary people everywhere else get increasingly sick of your grievances, mopery and sense of entitlement, as they try to get on with their own "struggle" to keep house and home together.

"Suck It Up" is the phrase of the moment, I believe...

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

What I don't 'get' is how they feel that this 'betrayal' ninety years ago should form the cornerstone of their relationship with the country they want to be a part of in the future;

I haven't agreed with some of the over the top stuff posted here and have said so. But when people routinely come out with this kind of exclusionist partitionism is it any wonder that northerners feel a bit pissed off?

(a) it isn't 'routine' in any way, it's my opinion.
(b) it isn't 'exclusionist partitionism' or what I understand by it, but then I don't parrot what politicians tell me to.
(c) i can't help it if you're pissed off with me being pissed off with you.

& northern nationalists coming on here making people from the Republic and the Irish State being some kind of cesspool of sin and we are all Cruella de Vil incarnate and you lads from the North are helpless Dalmation puppies being put some kind of meat grinder so we can sell for thirty pieces of silver.

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

Ulick, Hardy's response is no more a rant than Pangurban's. Is it only those from the 6 counties who are allowed to express their frustrations at their fellow Irishmen's narcissistic and self-orientated outlook.

Pangurban raises some very good points which deserve better than a rant from Hardy and pathetic attempt at satire by O'Neill. Namely:

1. The Irish media industry stand exposed as partisan, untruthful and incompetent
2. Irish society has been exposed as devoid of vision
3. an inability to learn from past mistakes
4. Northern Nationalists have seen their aspirations trampled upon

These are four very salient aspects to the Presidential campaign and coverage so far and deserve rational debate not hyperbolic rant against imagined slights.

Hardy has it spot on and that only backs it up. As someone said recently "Why always me?"

Go on...

[mylestheslasher]

I'd rather have a man with a dodgy £5k in his background than a man involved in the murder and maiming of men, women and children.

Michael Collins? 

Michael Collins never lied or hid what he done.

St Michael 

Maybe because he died at 31 and twitter wasn't what it is now?...

OK I would have assumed that a man who led the IRA would have hid more than a few things but apparently not 

So if not Collins, is it Tom Barry or Dan Breen who "maimed and murdered men, women and children"? Or were all the members of the Old IRA whiter than white, and did they all openly tell everyone what they did, as posts to this board over the years have led me to believe? Surely Mick Collins wasn't the only Saint after all!

TG4 did a interesting program on Dan Breen a few weeks ago, including interview footage of him as an old man and he was not one bit sorry for shooting solidiers dead that he caught. If memory serves me he said they had no option but to shoot them as they had no means of holding them. Dan Breen was anti treaty during the civil war and then joined FF. He is not alone in what he done from that time. I believe he was one of the armed FF delegation that entered the Dail and took the oath to the british monarch - although of course they later declared a republic. The only thing that has changed is that the rose tinted glasses have been applied when some look back at this period of time. War is a dirty business - always was and always will be.

[Evil Genius]

The public are not stupid. The biggest lie of the campaign is that Martin McGuinness had no further involvement with the IRA after 1974. The other one has bells on it Marty!

I wouldn't be too sure this is a lie. Around that time McGuinness and Adams started talking to the Brits and the political strategy was being formulated. Whilst as senior Republicans they may well have been on the Army Council of the IRA it would have been risky for them to continue as active members given their high profile.

So they were only Non-Executive Directors on the Board of "Terrorism Inc.", then?
I suppose that makes it all OK, then...

I know this is splitting hairs slightly but there is a distinct difference.

Says the man who cannot discern a hair's breadth between the status of BillyWright as "victim" and that of those poor innocents he so foully murdered.

No, no "hierarchy" there, even if we are required to note the "distinct difference" between directing operations as a member of the Army Council of the IRA, and actually carrying out those operations.

Then again, I don't suppose the late Col. Gadaffi got his hands dirty after, say, 1974 either...

[Hardy]

Whoever should win this election, should consider what has been lost in the process. The Irish media industry stand exposed as partisan, untruthful and incompetent. Irish society has been exposed as devoid of vision, and an inability to learn from past mistakes. Northern Nationalists have seen their aspirations trampled upon and are now totally abandoned. When your colonial masters treat you with more respect than your fellow countryman, the time has come to consider your position. Michael D has behaved with presidential decorum and dignity and will probably succeed to the presidency. Sadly he will preside over a bankrupt,fractured state, that has turned its back on its history and culture, and has no future other than a pleasant playground for rich european elites

Right. The presidential election is all about Northern Nationalists. Their rights are trampled upon because the people refuse to do Sinn Féin's bidding. Everything we do down here must be pre-approved by the few self-appointed cultural censors who not only see themselves as our betters but constantly go out of their way to proclaim it here.

I'm sorry, but I'm not accepting any lectures today from people who are capable of the simultaneous condemnation of one liar and blind idolatry of the liar who trapped him. And I'm never accepting lectures, today or any other day, from anybody who has the barefaced hubris and gall to proclaim himself and/or his community superior to me and/or mine.

Instead of a hyperbolic rant Hardy, if you are going to reply why not attempt a reasoned response to his/her points instead? 

I'm happy enough with what I posted.

But to do you the courtesy of a direct answer to your question "why not?", (accepting for the sake of argument  that my post was a rant, however hyperbolic) I suppose I could have and a bigger man would have but I can't always resist the temptation to counter a hyperbolic rant with one of my own.

[mylestheslasher]

Northern Nationalists have seen their aspirations trampled upon and are now totally abandoned.

Yep, that's right, "abandoned" to the Ballot Box and the Debating Chamber.

Oh for the Good Old Days, when this man used to tell it like it is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzvpMlHuIrs&feature=related

When your colonial masters treat you with more respect than your fellow countryman, the time has come to consider your position.

But isn't that the whole point?

Isn't considering your own position too painful when the only conclusion to be drawn is that after 90 years, "Armed Struggle" was never going to bring about your cherished United Ireland; nor will SF's 25%(?) of the vote in NI, even when combined with 15%(?) in the Republic;  and even if it somehow could, any United Ireland you found yourself in would not be anything like that which you struggled for down the decades?

Let's face it, your "position" has been reduced to one of collaboration with the Brits in a glorified County Council in the North, whilst acting as the Barker in a Side Show in the Travelling Circus that passes for politics in the Free State, whilst ordinary people everywhere else get increasingly sick of your grievances, mopery and sense of entitlement, as they try to get on with their own "struggle" to keep house and home together.

"Suck It Up" is the phrase of the moment, I believe...

EG - SF might have 15% in the republic but you do realise that all the major parties in the South are   [ u]for [/u] a united Ireland, even FG. Likewise in the North more than just SF are also in favour, namely the SDLP. I hope, with some persuading, that a chunk of unionists might also be convinced. Not that mad when you consider in 1798 a large proportion of the rebels in the united Irishmen in Ulster were protestant and ancestors of settlers.

[Evil Genius]

Tubberman you and some others here seem to take the posts of a few Northern Posters on this site as representative of all. This is not the case no more than some of the views expressed on here by you and others represent the views of all southerners. Yes it is true that some southerners on here have displayed a lack of understanding of the northern situation and the experiences of Nationalists since partition and the feeling of isolation we felt. But not all. Some northern posters have also shown a lack of understanding both of the politics and the experiences of the south since partition. But there is more that unites us than divides us. We should however know from the experiences of German reunification that to wake up in a United Ireland one day would be a complete disaster for all. When it happens unity will come dropping slowly and will require patience, understanding and compromise on all sides.

All very well, I'm sure, but it completely fails to take into account the "elephant in the room" - namely 1 million NI Unionists, without whose willing co-operation, no-one will be going anywhere.

Don't hold your breath...

[Hardy]

I'd rather have a man with a dodgy £5k in his background than a man involved in the murder and maiming of men, women and children.

Michael Collins? 

Michael Collins never lied or hid what he done.

St Michael 

Maybe because he died at 31 and twitter wasn't what it is now?...

OK I would have assumed that a man who led the IRA would have hid more than a few things but apparently not 

So if not Collins, is it Tom Barry or Dan Breen who "maimed and murdered men, women and children"? Or were all the members of the Old IRA whiter than white, and did they all openly tell everyone what they did, as posts to this board over the years have led me to believe? Surely Mick Collins wasn't the only Saint after all!

TG4 did a interesting program on Dan Breen a few weeks ago, including interview footage of him as an old man and he was not one bit sorry for shooting solidiers dead that he caught. If memory serves me he said they had no option but to shoot them as they had no means of holding them. Dan Breen was anti treaty during the civil war and then joined FF. He is not alone in what he done from that time. I believe he was one of the armed FF delegation that entered the Dail and took the oath to the british monarch - although of course they later declared a republic. The only thing that has changed is that the rose tinted glasses have been applied when some look back at this period of time. War is a dirty business - always was and always will be.

What's the point of all this? Dan Breen, as far as I can judge at this remove, was something of a psychopath. How does that affect any consideration of the presidential campaign of 2011, the character or actions of the living, breathing Martin McGuinness, the character or actions of the living, wheezing Sean Gallagher, life, the universe, anything?

[Tubberman]

Tubberman you and some others here seem to take the posts of a few Northern Posters on this site as representative of all. This is not the case no more than some of the views expressed on here by you and others represent the views of all southerners. Yes it is true that some southerners on here have displayed a lack of understanding of the northern situation and the experiences of Nationalists since partition and the feeling of isolation we felt. But not all. Some northern posters have also shown a lack of understanding both of the politics and the experiences of the south since partition. But there is more that unites us than divides us. We should however know from the experiences of German reunification that to wake up in a United Ireland one day would be a complete disaster for all. When it happens unity will come dropping slowly and will require patience, understanding and compromise on all sides.

All very well, I'm sure, but it completely fails to take into account the "elephant in the room" - namely 1 million NI Unionists, without whose willing co-operation, no-one will be going anywhere.

Don't hold your breath...

Well it does really. That's the whole "patience, understanding and compromise on all sides" part I'd imagine. Unless you don't consider the unionists to be a side I suppose.

[Billys Boots]

Ulick, Hardy's response is no more a rant than Pangurban's. Is it only those from the 6 counties who are allowed to express their frustrations at their fellow Irishmen's narcissistic and self-orientated outlook.

Pangurban raises some very good points which deserve better than a rant from Hardy and pathetic attempt at satire by O'Neill. Namely:

1. The Irish media industry stand exposed as partisan, untruthful and incompetent
2. Irish society has been exposed as devoid of vision
3. an inability to learn from past mistakes
4. Northern Nationalists have seen their aspirations trampled upon

These are four very salient aspects to the Presidential campaign and coverage so far and deserve rational debate not hyperbolic rant against imagined slights.

Ok then.

1.  The Irish media industry stand exposed as partisan, untruthful and incompetent - correct, but not only in relation to Northern Nationalists, and not only in respect of the recent Presidential campaign.  I'd be inclined to say that this is true of media in most parts of the world too.

2.  Irish society has been exposed as devoid of vision - I'd agree, but that has not been exposed by the Presidential campaign, it's been tru for some time, and not in isolation from Northern Irish society or indeed society anywhere. 

3.  an inability to learn from past mistakes - don't disagree in general (of worldwide human nature), but I can't see the contextual relevance to the Presidential campaign for this, or is it just the usual rant that leads to disengagement from the discussion due to our unfeeling nature. 

4. Northern Nationalists have seen their aspirations trampled upon - as I said before, I see this, I recognise this, but going over it again (in the context that 'our' contribution' to this was through our ancestors) won't help you (as Northern Nationalists) or us (as your fellow-countrymen). 

5.  These are four very salient aspects to the Presidential campaign and coverage so far and deserve rational debate not hyperbolic rant against imagined slights - I'll just point out that I'm trying to be rational, and also point to "fellow Irishmen's narcissistic and self-orientated outlook" and walk slowly away. 

[Evil Genius]

Yes! Yaaaarrrrr!!! Right on matey! This has got my blood going now. I feel like going out and throwing rocks at policemen or banging the ground with binlids. I agree with everything here and will go even further. Should we start another armed campaign and go down the Basque route and look for an independent part of the country. We can call it something new like FATDAD with the initial of every county in it. We are the good people and the south are like Limbo or purgatory. Leave them to their money-making corrupt European mindset whilst we will continue to promote the language, music, culture, family breeding and land feudal systems.

I've never felt so exhilarated or liberated. This is a new start. Come back up Martin and lead us into paradise. 2016 will see a new and better island. It's a bit like drinking fresh banana juice. The bad bits are at the bottom.

Very good, Olly.

In fact, it's so good that it seems churlishly pedantic of me to point out that the all-new Real Free State should actually be called FATLAD... 

[Olly]

Instead of wanting someone you like to win this competition, we should all stand back and picture Ireland if each one won. Their personality could envelope us as we're crying out for a hero.

If Sean Gallagher wins he'll have us all working 20 hours a day for pittance wage maybe evening imprisoning slackers. I'd say he'd be a real dictator and wouldn't be smiling at jokes if his aides made one. Even they might live in fear. If Martin McGuinness wins we'll be a lot harder. However there's a chance he'll ban drink altogether as the loose talk costs lives posters all over the country will make us a bit more reserved. If Michael Higgins wins it'll be like the movies with fiddling music playing over loudspeakers on every road and people saying top of the morning to you and poteen making under bridges. If Gay Mitchell wins it could be a very proud day to be gay and the exposure of an Irish Gay being accepted will make it a gay day for seven years. If Dana wins then I think we could become more sensitve to things. I can see men crying at knocking down badgers on the roads and maybe knitting competitons being won my musclebound Mayomen etc. If Mary Davis won I think we'll probably just walk about waiting for the next election. If Norris wins we might become a more literate nation with people from Derry and Kerry both making inroads at learning the language and how to speak it universally. The downside would be the length it takes for him to say I declare this Spar open etc. Be careful what we wish for. Look at America and their initial amazement at the instant meals at MacDonalds. Now they're fighting a rampaging obesity epidemic and it's spreading.

[orangeman]

Instead of wanting someone you like to win this competition, we should all stand back and picture Ireland if each one won. Their personality could envelope us as we're crying out for a hero.

If Sean Gallagher wins he'll have us all working 20 hours a day for pittance wage maybe evening imprisoning slackers. I'd say he'd be a real dictator and wouldn't be smiling at jokes if his aides made one. Even they might live in fear. If Martin McGuinness wins we'll be a lot harder. However there's a chance he'll ban drink altogether as the loose talk costs lives posters all over the country will make us a bit more reserved. If Michael Higgins wins it'll be like the movies with fiddling music playing over loudspeakers on every road and people saying top of the morning to you and poteen making under bridges. If Gay Mitchell wins it could be a very proud day to be gay and the exposure of an Irish Gay being accepted will make it a gay day for seven years. If Dana wins then I think we could become more sensitve to things. I can see men crying at knocking down badgers on the roads and maybe knitting competitons being won my musclebound Mayomen etc. If Mary Davis won I think we'll probably just walk about waiting for the next election. If Norris wins we might become a more literate nation with people from Derry and Kerry both making inroads at learning the language and how to speak it universally. The downside would be the length it takes for him to say I declare this Spar open etc. Be careful what we wish for. Look at America and their initial amazement at the instant meals at MacDonalds. Now they're fighting a rampaging obesity epidemic and it's spreading.

excellent.