who turned down the visit to meet the queen at croke park?

[pintsofguinness]

I'm not talking about IRA members who were killed - that's a whole other debate.
I'm talking about civilians who were killed.

I think you will find that in most cases the Brits have apologised...Do not get me wrong I am a Nationalist but some realism must be applied.

What the f**k are you talking about - On one post you say the brits have apologised in "most cases" when in the next you say we can't expect them to admit to collusion - so they haven't apologised in most cases then? In most cases they won't admit any wrong doing never mind issue an apology.
Lets leave out the victims of collusion for a minute then and concentrate on the unarmed civilians state forces directly murdered and maimed.  Where are all these apologies? I can only think of two - Bloody Sunday and Majella O'Hare - when did they apologise for the rest, I must have missed it?

Take Rosemary Nelson, whilst they did not admit collusion, and I don't accept this denial they did however apologize for the states failures. I am no apologist for the British and don't accept that there was no collusion. But they won't admit it. I just think it is time to try and move on and I am uncomfortable with some of the IRA's actions as well but again would like to see progress towards a peaceful reunification. To this end drawing a line under many acts of violence on all sides is necessary. I have seen the work of loyalists at first hand and have experienced discrimination in my time. I want a better future not forgetting the past but not trapped in it either. You may disagree but I have aright to my opinion.

So we've got to the bottom of it, they've actually apologised for f**k all, it's just that you think it's time to "move on".
You'd need to send that memo out to those still waiting on an explanation for their loved ones death.

[Applesisapples]

I'm not talking about IRA members who were killed - that's a whole other debate.
I'm talking about civilians who were killed.

I think you will find that in most cases the Brits have apologised...Do not get me wrong I am a Nationalist but some realism must be applied.

What the f**k are you talking about - On one post you say the brits have apologised in "most cases" when in the next you say we can't expect them to admit to collusion - so they haven't apologised in most cases then? In most cases they won't admit any wrong doing never mind issue an apology.
Lets leave out the victims of collusion for a minute then and concentrate on the unarmed civilians state forces directly murdered and maimed.  Where are all these apologies? I can only think of two - Bloody Sunday and Majella O'Hare - when did they apologise for the rest, I must have missed it?

Take Rosemary Nelson, whilst they did not admit collusion, and I don't accept this denial they did however apologize for the states failures. I am no apologist for the British and don't accept that there was no collusion. But they won't admit it. I just think it is time to try and move on and I am uncomfortable with some of the IRA's actions as well but again would like to see progress towards a peaceful reunification. To this end drawing a line under many acts of violence on all sides is necessary. I have seen the work of loyalists at first hand and have experienced discrimination in my time. I want a better future not forgetting the past but not trapped in it either. You may disagree but I have aright to my opinion.

So we've got to the bottom of it, they've actually apologised for f**k all, it's just that you think it's time to "move on".
You'd need to send that memo out to those still waiting on an explanation for their loved ones death.

No no no no. I at no time have said that everyone should move on regardless, but in their own time. I am making the point that both the British and Sinn Fein were and still are to an extent engaged in a propaganda war as are the Unionists.Everyone takes a different position depending on the victim and their allegiance. Look at the Unionist approach to the Tribunal on Cobb and Breen which is in direct opposition to their position on the Bloody Sunday and Nelson enquiries. Yes everyone needs closure. Yes in an ideal world all sides would admit the wrong doings during war and yes the British have a hypocritical approach to the conflict but so does everyone involved. We do need to carve out a future for our children and it is going to involve pain on all sides. Victims will need consideration in all of this and there can be no hierarchy of victim either. However we can not continue with round after round of whataboutery. There also has to be some recognition of reality thats all I'm saying. I am not saying it is right or just. The reality is that the British Government as with most governments can only go so far. Sinn fein and the Unionists are no different they can only go so far. In relation to collusion I have no doubt that given the sectarian nature of the RUC and UDR and the use of informers by intelligence services that collusion by any definition took place but the British will never accept that publicly until the whole process here is well bedded in, to do so would be to give momentum to the dissidents and leverage to Republicans not to mention destroying their credibility on foreign policy. We can't afford an inquiry into every single death so perhaps a truth and reconciliation process is required the problem is in a divided society agreement on this could take years. I want to make it clear that I am trying to give an analysis of were we are and my opinion on how we should proceed. I am not justifying British actions or those of loyalist are the IRA but as I say we can either acknowledge the past and move forward or we can continue to look backwards, a position I have heard Sinn Fein rightly espouse to Unionists when the mention Clady, Darkley etc...

[Hardy]

Applesisapples, you're making one tiny, but fatal error. You're being reasonable.

[pintsofguinness]

Applesisapples, you're making one tiny, but fatal error. You're being reasonable.

Who's being unreasonable and why?

[Hardy]

Who said someone was being unreasonable?

[pintsofguinness]

You implied it in your post to applesisapples.

[Hardy]

I didn't. I said he was being reasonable. I implied he was getting flak for being reasonable. I didn't say anything about anybody else. People often get a hard time here just for being reasonable. 

[fitzroyalty]

It may be easy to be 'reasonable' in Co. Meath or where ever, but try being reasonable having this sort of shite spouted:

'Biggest winners are the lawyers' says Simpson

Published on Thursday 26 May 2011 14:34

THE biggest winners in the Rosemary Nelson Inquiry have been the lawyers, DUP MP David Simpson has said.
Noting the findings that there was 'no evidence' of state involvement in the death of Mrs Nelson he pointed out: "I also note that the cost of this exercise is projected to be in excess of £45million. It would seem as though, as has been the case in other inquiries of this nature, the biggest winners have not been those affected or the wider community, but rather the lawyers.

"This Inquiry has confirmed what most people already knew – namely that the allegations of RUC collusion were simply incorrect. Those of us who lived through the darkest days of the Troubles know of the extraordinary bravery of both the RUC and military personnel.

"We know too of their dedication and terrible sacrifice in defence of our freedoms.

"Indeed as the Member of Parliament for Upper Bann I feel that now is a good day to enquire of the Government as to its stance on the security force personnel killed and wounded in this part of Northern Ireland and the fact that they were exposed to danger and death as a result of the direct role played by the Dublin government in the formation, financing, training and arming of the Provisional IRA and for making the South a safe haven for terrorists for many years. When will the UK government insist that Dublin steps up to the mark and accepts its responsibility?

"In the past the government gave assurances that locally there were to be no more costly, open-ended inquires into past events. I trust that they will stand by their word on that front. As a community we can go in two directions: we can say there will be no more costly inquiries of this kind, or we can grant inquiries into every single past event in Northern Ireland, where everyone, not just the army or the police, will be made to give account for their actions.

"What we cannot tolerate is a few high profile cases receiving lavish amounts of government largesse and attention, whilst victims of other incidents are left isolated or ignored. At this time my thoughts are with the families of those who lost loved ones and who have never received any government or media attention.

"The DUP will continue to fight to ensure fairness and equality prevails and I urge to government to resist the calls for any further inquiries of this nature. They will achieve nothing other than to exacerbate the already strong sense of injustice that exists within the community at the disproportionate attention certain cases have received."

That's my 'elected representative' speaking there. Just a typical example as to what one might have to endure when reading the local paper.

[Hardy]

It may be easy to be 'reasonable' in Co. Meath or where ever, but try being reasonable having this sort of shite spouted:

'Biggest winners are the lawyers' says Simpson

Published on Thursday 26 May 2011 14:34

THE biggest winners in the Rosemary Nelson Inquiry have been the lawyers, DUP MP David Simpson has said.
Noting the findings that there was 'no evidence' of state involvement in the death of Mrs Nelson he pointed out: "I also note that the cost of this exercise is projected to be in excess of £45million. It would seem as though, as has been the case in other inquiries of this nature, the biggest winners have not been those affected or the wider community, but rather the lawyers.

"This Inquiry has confirmed what most people already knew – namely that the allegations of RUC collusion were simply incorrect. Those of us who lived through the darkest days of the Troubles know of the extraordinary bravery of both the RUC and military personnel.

"We know too of their dedication and terrible sacrifice in defence of our freedoms.

"Indeed as the Member of Parliament for Upper Bann I feel that now is a good day to enquire of the Government as to its stance on the security force personnel killed and wounded in this part of Northern Ireland and the fact that they were exposed to danger and death as a result of the direct role played by the Dublin government in the formation, financing, training and arming of the Provisional IRA and for making the South a safe haven for terrorists for many years. When will the UK government insist that Dublin steps up to the mark and accepts its responsibility?

"In the past the government gave assurances that locally there were to be no more costly, open-ended inquires into past events. I trust that they will stand by their word on that front. As a community we can go in two directions: we can say there will be no more costly inquiries of this kind, or we can grant inquiries into every single past event in Northern Ireland, where everyone, not just the army or the police, will be made to give account for their actions.

"What we cannot tolerate is a few high profile cases receiving lavish amounts of government largesse and attention, whilst victims of other incidents are left isolated or ignored. At this time my thoughts are with the families of those who lost loved ones and who have never received any government or media attention.

"The DUP will continue to fight to ensure fairness and equality prevails and I urge to government to resist the calls for any further inquiries of this nature. They will achieve nothing other than to exacerbate the already strong sense of injustice that exists within the community at the disproportionate attention certain cases have received."

That's my 'elected representative' speaking there. Just a typical example as to what one might have to endure when reading the local paper.

Are you a victim now because of something you read in the paper? And what has being from Co. Meath got to do with being reasonable or otherwise?

(Louth responses taken as read.)

[fitzroyalty]

That your interpretation of the term may differ to that of others...

I'm not a victim nor am I implying such, nor is this isn't directed solely at you; but I just feel that it is a kick in the goolies to have people ('being reasonable') come on here and bandy about terms like 'move on', 'don't live in the past' etc.

I would share pog's view re your insinuation that any contrary view is that of an unreasonable person.

[Hardy]

That your interpretation of the term may differ to that of others...

... because I'm from Meath? Can you give me the list of qualifications I must achieve in order that my interpretation may meet the official requirement?

I'm not a victim nor am I implying such, nor is this isn't directed solely at you; but I just feel that it is a kick in the goolies to have people ('being reasonable') come on here and bandy about terms like 'move on', 'don't live in the past' etc.

Well since you

share pog's view re your insinuation that any contrary view is that of an unreasonable person

despite my specific clarification that it isn't, I'll feel free to interpret your elevation of something an anonymous entity writes on an internet discussion board to "a kick in the goolies" as a claim of victimhood.

[trueblue1234]

Hardy do you think POG was being unreasonable in his discussions with Apples?

[Leo]

What the f**k is this dross doing on the main GAA discussion board?
Who moderates this tireless sh**t?

[Hardy]

Hardy do you think POG was being unreasonable in his discussions with Apples?

POG is always unreasonable. That's what makes him such an interesting poster.

[Applesisapples]

For the record I am not from Meath. I try to look at the situation here from both sides. That in no way dilutes by ambition to see our Country reunited, yes reunited!