Is the end of the Union in sight? (It may well be but then again…)

[thejuice]

What's the bloody point of keeping the union if I can't watch Antrim against Donegal on BBC while I'm England. It's a f**king sham. 

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

There was no name change to the country (state) in any ammendment of Bunreacht na hÉireann.

Therefore 'Ireland' or 'Éire' refers to the 32 counties, not the 26. Remember that.

[gallsman]

MGHU, I find your bluster any time anyone uses the term "Free State" be completely and utterly hypocritical You attempt to lecture people about technicalities over naming and constantly insist that as the 26 county state that occupies the majority of the island is named Éire in its constitution, the correct term in English is Ireland. You frequently refer to this constitution as some sort of vindication, conveniently ignoring the fact that when that constitution was written, the State unreservedly laid claim to the territory of the whole island of Ireland. That constitution, as you know, has been amended in this respect following the GFA.

So while your constitutional backing of the name "Ireland" for the 26 county state, this is as inaccurate as "Free State".

There was no name change to the country (state) in any ammendment of Bunreacht na hÉireann. The Irish Free State is a redundant term. Is it only people from the 6 counties that are allowed to get offended.

So what you're saying is you base the offence you take on a technicality of the Constitution. What was the name of the 26 counties pre-1998, whe the constitution laid claim to the entire island?

You are a pedant. A disgrace living up the history of the Fine Gael party in which you refuse to ever see any wrongdoing.

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

What's the bloody point of keeping the union if I can't watch Antrim against Donegal on BBC while I'm England. It's a f**king sham. 

That might have been something of a blessing, given the game that's in it! 

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

MGHU, I find your bluster any time anyone uses the term "Free State" be completely and utterly hypocritical You attempt to lecture people about technicalities over naming and constantly insist that as the 26 county state that occupies the majority of the island is named Éire in its constitution, the correct term in English is Ireland. You frequently refer to this constitution as some sort of vindication, conveniently ignoring the fact that when that constitution was written, the State unreservedly laid claim to the territory of the whole island of Ireland. That constitution, as you know, has been amended in this respect following the GFA.

So while your constitutional backing of the name "Ireland" for the 26 county state, this is as inaccurate as "Free State".

There was no name change to the country (state) in any ammendment of Bunreacht na hÉireann. The Irish Free State is a redundant term. Is it only people from the 6 counties that are allowed to get offended.

So what you're saying is you base the offence you take on a technicality of the Constitution. What was the name of the 26 counties pre-1998, whe the constitution laid claim to the entire island?

You are a pedant. A disgrace living up the history of the Fine Gael party in which you refuse to ever see any wrongdoing.

Here we go again, I normally use the term the Irish Republic and only resort to Ireland or Éire when the Free Stater or Free State shite starts on this board. Care to check my posts you will find I am telling the truth.

What wrongdoing are you on about ffs? Cumann na nGaedheal delievered us the Irish state, they preserved democracy against anti-democrats in the Civil War, they stablised the fledgling state. Fine Gael established the Republic.

I have no anti-6 county agenda, I have a bloody hangover from hell from being out drinking with a crowd of friends from the 6 counties last night. I get annoyed and retort when people from Northern Ireland try and mock or belittle the state I am proud to call home (I am also proud to be from the Island and the 32 county nation).

You are trying to tell me what my views are as opposed to listening to what they are. I don't just talk about N.I. sure if you read my posts I am as likely to be annoyed about something up in Dublin, Ballina, Galway, the status of Ballaghaderreen, Britain or with the Yanks.

[Rossfan]

I am as likely to be annoyed about something up in Dublin, Ballina, Galway, the status of Ballaghaderreen, Britain or with the Yanks.

Ballagh is nothing to do with ye rhubarbs. It's a happy Roscommon town looked after by the great Roscommon Co Council and its wonderful local Councillors whom the people of Ballagh elect freely onto the Ros Co Co.
Now if the few GAA dinosaurs who remain in that lovely town could see the light instead of trying to turn back the clock to the dark ages of rhubarbdome..........

[Evil Genius]

That this thread has degenerated into playground name-calling by various Nationalist factions etc tells us all we need to know about the likelihood of Irish Re-Unification [sic] occurring anytime soon! 

Time to close it, I'd say...


















... and keep it closed for another 50+ years! 

[Eamonnca1]

I see nothing in the GFA that says that I have to "respect" unionism in the sense of declaring that it's a perfectly valid political argument worthy of my support. All I see is that I give it enough recognition as a view that is held by a significant section of the population and that they are entitled to have that view. So you're entitled to your opinion that unionism is a valid position, and I'm entitled to my view that it's an immoral one. But in the interests of building a stable society we both agree to disagree on that issue for the time being.

But, tomorrow's another day!

[Eamonnca1]

That this thread has degenerated into playground name-calling by various Nationalist factions etc tells us all we need to know about the likelihood of Irish Re-Unification [sic] occurring anytime soon! 

So every time someone resorts to name-calling, that tells you "all we need to know" about their position or the liklihood of them getting their own way? Well that's Tom Elliot sorted out so.

Time to close it, I'd say...
... and keep it closed for another 50+ years! 

Ah, the old "let's not even talk about Irish unity" ruse. No dice. We're gonna keep on talking about it until the day it happens, matey! 

Incidentally, what's up with the sic thing up there when you talk about reunification? Are you saying it was never unified?  We'll leave aside the Ard Ri and Brian Boru and the comparison with England which wasn't united until under Henry VII in 1485 for a minute, but youse boys are fond of telling us that Ireland was only united under the British. Well if the British saw fit to have the place run as a single entity with its own devolved parliament for so long (and the Orange Order were leading campaigners against the abolition of what they called "our Irish Parliament") then that kinda holes your little 'sic' below the waterline, wouldn't you say? 

In fact to this day it's not uncommon to hear planters like yourself say that you'd be okay with the Free State* rejoining the UK, and with Ireland being united under those circumstances. That tells me that deep down you don't really believe your own propaganda about the sick county state being a nation in its own right. If you did, why would you want to reunite with these "foreigners" south of the border?

*I'll carry on using that term as long as the word "nordie" keeps appearing on these pages.

[Lar Naparka]

That this thread has degenerated into playground name-calling by various Nationalist factions etc tells us all we need to know about the likelihood of Irish Re-Unification [sic] occurring anytime soon! 

Time to close it, I'd say...


















... and keep it closed for another 50+ years! 

Unfortunately, it seems to have passed its sell by date. Like most other threads with an Orange vs Green flavour, it has degenerated as you say.
However, I had hoped it would slide down the ratings and slip into the background.
I am reluctant to close it for a number of reasons:
It may happen that, sometime in the future, the thread may become relevant again. I'm not anticipating  this but it remains a possibility. In such a case, leaving this thread open would perhaps stop someone opening a fresh thread on the same topic. Then, the whole tiresome cycle would start all over again.
Maybe those who choose to play the man and not the ball would show more restraint and stay on topic if it's a resumption rather than a fresh start. I would also expect a few whining PMs to accuse me of favouring the Unionist cause. It happens from time to time.
You can be sure MW isn't going to send me one of those!
It could also be pointed out to me that all the handbagging isn't coming from the nationalist side and that nobody needs to respond to anything that is posted. Believe me, I have heard all of this before.
I have another reason for leaving this thread open, EG, at least for a little while longer and it is this; shutting this one down would leave the posters, who annoy you here, free to move to another one and degrade the discussion there also.

[Eamonnca1]

I don't see the point of closing the thread myself. It people get sick of it then nature will take its course and it'll disappear off the front page.

[LeoMc]

That this thread has degenerated into playground name-calling by various Nationalist factions etc tells us all we need to know about the likelihood of Irish Re-Unification [sic] occurring anytime soon! 

So every time someone resorts to name-calling, that tells you "all we need to know" about their position or the liklihood of them getting their own way? Well that's Tom Elliot sorted out so.

Time to close it, I'd say...
... and keep it closed for another 50+ years! 

Ah, the old "let's not even talk about Irish unity" ruse. No dice. We're gonna keep on talking about it until the day it happens, matey! 

Incidentally, what's up with the sic thing up there when you talk about reunification? Are you saying it was never unified?  We'll leave aside the Ard Ri and Brian Boru and the comparison with England which wasn't united until under Henry VII in 1485 for a minute, but youse boys are fond of telling us that Ireland was only united under the British. Well if the British saw fit to have the place run as a single entity with its own devolved parliament for so long (and the Orange Order were leading campaigners against the abolition of what they called "our Irish Parliament") then that kinda holes your little 'sic' below the waterline, wouldn't you say? 

In fact to this day it's not uncommon to hear planters like yourself say that you'd be okay with the Free State* rejoining the UK, and with Ireland being united under those circumstances. That tells me that deep down you don't really believe your own propaganda about the sick county state being a nation in its own right. If you did, why would you want to reunite with these "foreigners" south of the border?

*I'll carry on using that term as long as the word "nordie" keeps appearing on these pages.

probably best not use that as your example of a United Ireland...

[Lar Naparka]

I don't see the point of closing the thread myself. It people get sick of it then nature will take its course and it'll disappear off the front page.

Exactly. I don't think all the slagging is coming from the Nationalist side- not by a long shot.
This is not the first time a thread like this has been brought to a standstill or maybe it would be more accurate to say it was fought to a standstill.
I think the discussion was reasonable enough in the earlier stages but, by now, it has gone the way of many others. 
However, it takes at least one from both sides to keep the handbagging going on. This tit for tat stuff won't stop with the closing of this thread. There will always be another one and it inevitably be derailed once more and I really don't see much point in not leaving this one open.

[Evil Genius]

dougal, its a quote from the first season of the soprano's

Not so, it's from rather closer to home, if you like, more "Wexford shore" than "Jersey shore"! 

[Evil Genius]

I see nothing in the GFA that says that I have to "respect" unionism in the sense of declaring that it's a perfectly valid political argument worthy of my support. All I see is that I give it enough recognition as a view that is held by a significant section of the population and that they are entitled to have that view. So you're entitled to your opinion that unionism is a valid position, and I'm entitled to my view that it's an immoral one. But in the interests of building a stable society we both agree to disagree on that issue for the time being.

But, tomorrow's another day!

I have quoted the clear and unambiguous terms whereby the Participants to the GFA confirm that they respect all political, religious and cultural Irish traditions equally, including that of the British community in Ireland, Unionism.

Of course you do not have to respect Unionism, never mind give it your support.

But like eg Nally Stand on another thread, you cannot "have your cake and eat it" i.e. claim to support the GFA, whilst simultaneously disregarding those most basic premises which you don't like.

As a Unionist, I dislike eg the requirement that there be coalition government as of right for all parties. And I abhor the provision that permitted paramilitary prisoners (both sides, btw) to be released early, often after only serving minimal sentences for the most heinous of crimes etc.

But if I am going to benefit from those provisions of the Agreement with which I agree, I have to accept those with which I do not agree, not just in the letter, but in the spirit.

Therefore, whilst there are eg many Nationalist/Republican politicians whom I personally dislike (and not a few so-called "Loyalist" ones, too), I would never disparage Nationalism/Republicanism in the way you do Unionism.

As the GFA clearly states, and I am happy to aver, each is equally valid and worthy of respect.