Is the end of the Union in sight? (It may well be but then again…)

[lynchbhoy]

I nearly choked when I saw this.
They said that they'd never get into a negotiated settlement with republicans until they had an electoral mandate. Sinn Fein started making progress in elections and the unionists refused to talk to them.
They said there'd be no talks until the IRA stopped the killing. The IRA called a ceasfire and the unionists refused to talk to them until they declared that the ceasefire was permanent.
Then the decommissioning thing was added to the unionist demand escalator. After the weapons were decommissioned they still wouldn't believe it.
Then they were dragged kicking and screaming into  negotiating a deal in the Good Friday Agreement that included a commitment to sit in government with nationalists/republicans. No sooner were they in government with SF than they got their mates in the RUC's Special Branch to concoct a "spy ring" at Stormont (remember that?) by sending two dozen land rovers up to Stormont to retrieve two computer disks from a Sinn Fein office which were later returned. That was all they needed to pull out of government and the place lay idle for years while the "spy ring" was quietly forgotten and a new agreement had to be rigged up at St Andrews to restore their delicate little confidence.
And at St Andrews wasn't there a thing about agreeing to support an Irish language act? Have they delivered on that part of the deal? Have they f***! They've blocked it at every turn and proclaimed it in their political campaigning about how they're better than the other unionist party for being so effective at blocking any attempts to have an Irish language act. It's as if they never agreed to it!
Unionists stick to their word? Don't make me laugh!

You really have a rather tenuous grasp on reality.
In actual fact, unionists said before the IRA ceasefire of 1994 that they wouldn't talk to an armed terrorist "movement". Actually the requirements set in place by unionist leaders weakened, and they repeatedly compromised on what had been "red lines":
- no talks with SF before the IRA had fullly decommissioned
- no talks with SF until the IRA had started to decommission
...then attendance at talks with SF prior to any decommissioning...
- but no bilateral meetings prior to decomissioning beginning
...then there were bilaterals with SF...
--No entry into government with SF before decommissioning
- No entry into government with SF before decommissioning is begun
-No entry into government with SF before a commitment to begin decommissioning...
As for an Irish language act, I suggest you read the St Andrews Agreement before you go spouting off any more ill-informed nonsense.

you left out the part where unionists/loyalists needed photographs to prove everything...
if these were produced, I wouldnt have been surprised they didnt claim these were photoshopped if produced !!

Eamonnica - you have it spot on in what you say.

Lar - it is in the interests of unionism/loyalism to start negotiations - as the longer they leave it - the less bargaining power they have.
I for one am quite happy they are keeping their heads stuck in the sand.
This way we will keep our Irish Flag and anthem on reunification !

[Evil Genius]

And if you no longer accept the principles underpinning the GFA, who gets your allegiance now, TUV or the Dissidents? 

Thanks for misrepresenting me again, EG. Are you really trying to tell me that I have to lick unionism's boots or else I'm with the dissidents? My view is that partition is a wrong that needs to be corrected, but in the meantime I'm willing to put up with it in the name of keeping the peace and taking time to persuade enough of your crowd out of their bigoted ways. My views are 100% compatible with the GFA.

Really?

The GFA starts with a "Declaration of Support" which all participants agreed to endorse. This Declaration includes the following phrases [my emphasis]:
"... we firmly dedicate ourselves to the achievement of reconciliation, tolerance, and mutual trust..."
"We are committed to partnership, equality and mutual respect"
"We acknowledge the substantial differences between our continuing, and equally legitimate, political aspirations"

The Agreement goes on to address the various Constitutional Issues, stating:
"... the present wish of a majority of the people of Northern Ireland, freely exercised and legitimate, is to maintain the Union"
"[Government] shall be founded on the principles of full respect for, and equality of, civil, political, social and cultural rights, of freedom from discrimination for all citizens, and of parity of esteem and of just and equal treatment for the identity, ethos, and aspirations of both communities;"
"[Participants] recognise the birthright of all the people of Northern Ireland to identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both, as they may so choose"

Meanwhile, in eg your post #75 of this thread you stated the following:

"I class [Unionism] in the same category as slavery in America, subsequent segregation and Jim Crow laws in the American South, and apartheid in South Africa". You went on to deem Unionism to be "fundamentally undemocratic" and Unionists to be "a garrison people" and "a hate-filled people".

Finally you concluded that "Unionism is an unacceptable ideology that does not deserve any respect", which is entirely in keeping with your earlier endorsement eg of 'Gold' when he claimed that "[Unionists] have no real culture", or 'Armaghniac''s claim that Unionism is "politically incorrect".

In short, you clearly believe that Unionism lacks legitimacy and deserves no respect etc, whereas the GFA clearly affirms that Unionism is legitimate and should be accorded full and equal respect etc.

Do you still claim that your views are "100% compatible" with the GFA? 

[Evil Genius]

Hi EG,
As far as I rcall, you stated once that you would not be averse to the idea of a UI under certain circumstances.
(I hope I got that right.)
Could you elaborate on this? This is just a matter of personal curiosity.

I am a pragmatist and not a dogmatist. I believe that it is the function of a political ideology to serve us, not the other way round.

Therefore I was of the view during the Troubles, for instance, that if a UI could have replaced all the violence and misery with a peaceful, fair and democratic society, then I would have voted for it in an instant. (This was not incompatible with my concurrent view that the imposition of a UI by force on the unwilling and resolute Unionist majority in NI would actually have made things worse,  btw).

And even today, if I thought that a UI would serve the greater good for all the people of Ireland, I might  certainly be persuaded. The problem with that, however, is twofold.

First, when I think about the people in ROI with whom I would be "uniting", those with whom I would get on best (i.e. the great majority) are imo less and less bothered about Unity in the first place. Whereas those who are the most determined to see a UI are the ones with whom I would least* like to be "united".

And secondly, in the present circumstances I honestly cannot see how either  part of Ireland would be better off following Unity, for economic reasons if nothing else.



* - I guess it's got something to do with my aversion to seeing my friends, family and homeland being bombed to sh1t by the more "committed" of Republicans...

[Evil Genius]

I for one am quite happy they [Unionists] are keeping their heads stuck in the sane.

As opposed to you, whose head is clearly stuck somewhere insane...


A Freudian Typo?

[Rossfan]

The GFA starts with a "Declaration of Support" which all participants agreed to endorse. This Declaration includes the following phrases [my emphasis]:
"... we firmly dedicate ourselves to the achievement of reconciliation, tolerance, and mutual trust..."
"We are committed to partnership, equality and mutual respect"
"[Government] shall be founded on the principles of full respect for, and equality of, civil, political, social and cultural rights, of freedom from discrimination for all citizens, and of parity of esteem and of just and equal treatment for the identity, ethos, and aspirations of both communities;"
"[Participants] recognise the birthright of all the people of Northern Ireland to identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both, as they may so choose"

Could EG or someone point out the above to that arsehole Elliott ?

[Evil Genius]

The GFA starts with a "Declaration of Support" which all participants agreed to endorse. This Declaration includes the following phrases [my emphasis]:
"... we firmly dedicate ourselves to the achievement of reconciliation, tolerance, and mutual trust..."
"We are committed to partnership, equality and mutual respect"
"[Government] shall be founded on the principles of full respect for, and equality of, civil, political, social and cultural rights, of freedom from discrimination for all citizens, and of parity of esteem and of just and equal treatment for the identity, ethos, and aspirations of both communities;"
"[Participants] recognise the birthright of all the people of Northern Ireland to identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both, as they may so choose"

Could EG or someone point out the above to that arsehole Elliott ?

Does Elliott post on this website? If so, any idea of his User Name?

(No hurry, btw - it can wait until I've heard back from Eamonnca1)

[Maguire01]

Lar - it is in the interests of unionism/loyalism to start negotiations - as the longer they leave it - the less bargaining power they have.
I for one am quite happy they are keeping their heads stuck in the sand.
This way we will keep our Irish Flag and anthem on reunification !

Is a flag and an anthem really that significant to you / other republicans, in the grand scheme of unification?

[lynchbhoy]

Lar - it is in the interests of unionism/loyalism to start negotiations - as the longer they leave it - the less bargaining power they have.
I for one am quite happy they are keeping their heads stuck in the sand.
This way we will keep our Irish Flag and anthem on reunification !

Is a flag and an anthem really that significant to you / other republicans, in the grand scheme of unification?

no, but theres no better alternative. Right now I dont want reunification as economically we cannot sustain the burden of all these civil servants - when we thought we had a large percentage ourselves !
if unionists/loyalists want to proactively and progressively get in on the deal, they need to engage sooner (ie now) rather than continue dragging their heels and eventually like a petulant child expect to be given a greater share than their then lesser population would entitle them to.
ya cant have it every way. they might have been used to things happening like this in the 'good old days' - but the world doesnt work like that and the future reunified Ireland certainly wont 'march' to their minority tune.
If they engage they will be treated equally. otherwise what can they expect.

if all evil myles can do is snipe back with childish retorts and lengthy diatribes of verbosity with no substance as per usual, then it kind of shows that he/she has nothing , no argument other than the good old 'never never never' - and people like Lar naParka will soon see him and his kind for the stick in the mud old stagers like the good old afrikaaners were too !
I know a lot of unionist/loyalists unlike evil mylesy are starting to come out of this old hat mindset and the country and economy will be all the better for it when the reunification comes.

[bennydorano]

The GFA starts with a "Declaration of Support" which all participants agreed to endorse. This Declaration includes the following phrases [my emphasis]:
"... we firmly dedicate ourselves to the achievement of reconciliation, tolerance, and mutual trust..."
"We are committed to partnership, equality and mutual respect"
"[Government] shall be founded on the principles of full respect for, and equality of, civil, political, social and cultural rights, of freedom from discrimination for all citizens, and of parity of esteem and of just and equal treatment for the identity, ethos, and aspirations of both communities;"
"[Participants] recognise the birthright of all the people of Northern Ireland to identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both, as they may so choose"

Could EG or someone point out the above to that arsehole Elliott ?

Does Elliott post on this website? If so, any idea of his User Name?

(No hurry, btw - it can wait until I've heard back from Eamonnca1)

He wouldn't be the first unionist 'politician' if he did Who was the clown who was caught slabbering (bout 2 years ago?) and then alleged someone hacked his account and then was for taking legal action when all and sundry ripped the piss out of him

[Maguire01]

That would be the Bard of Dunclug (not to be confused with Baron of the Manor of Northstead).

[MW]

My view is that partition is a wrong that needs to be corrected, but in the meantime I'm willing to put up with it in the name of keeping the peace and taking time to persuade enough of your crowd out of their bigoted ways. My views are 100% compatible with the GFA.

Themmuns are a horrible bunch of bastards aren't they?

They should thank their lucky stars you're so tolerant.

[Myles Na G.]

I nearly choked when I saw this.
They said that they'd never get into a negotiated settlement with republicans until they had an electoral mandate. Sinn Fein started making progress in elections and the unionists refused to talk to them.
They said there'd be no talks until the IRA stopped the killing. The IRA called a ceasfire and the unionists refused to talk to them until they declared that the ceasefire was permanent.
Then the decommissioning thing was added to the unionist demand escalator. After the weapons were decommissioned they still wouldn't believe it.
Then they were dragged kicking and screaming into  negotiating a deal in the Good Friday Agreement that included a commitment to sit in government with nationalists/republicans. No sooner were they in government with SF than they got their mates in the RUC's Special Branch to concoct a "spy ring" at Stormont (remember that?) by sending two dozen land rovers up to Stormont to retrieve two computer disks from a Sinn Fein office which were later returned. That was all they needed to pull out of government and the place lay idle for years while the "spy ring" was quietly forgotten and a new agreement had to be rigged up at St Andrews to restore their delicate little confidence.
And at St Andrews wasn't there a thing about agreeing to support an Irish language act? Have they delivered on that part of the deal? Have they f***! They've blocked it at every turn and proclaimed it in their political campaigning about how they're better than the other unionist party for being so effective at blocking any attempts to have an Irish language act. It's as if they never agreed to it!
Unionists stick to their word? Don't make me laugh!

You really have a rather tenuous grasp on reality.
In actual fact, unionists said before the IRA ceasefire of 1994 that they wouldn't talk to an armed terrorist "movement". Actually the requirements set in place by unionist leaders weakened, and they repeatedly compromised on what had been "red lines":
- no talks with SF before the IRA had fullly decommissioned
- no talks with SF until the IRA had started to decommission
...then attendance at talks with SF prior to any decommissioning...
- but no bilateral meetings prior to decomissioning beginning
...then there were bilaterals with SF...
--No entry into government with SF before decommissioning
- No entry into government with SF before decommissioning is begun
-No entry into government with SF before a commitment to begin decommissioning...
As for an Irish language act, I suggest you read the St Andrews Agreement before you go spouting off any more ill-informed nonsense.

you left out the part where unionists/loyalists needed photographs to prove everything...
if these were produced, I wouldnt have been surprised they didnt claim these were photoshopped if produced !!

Eamonnica - you have it spot on in what you say.

Lar - it is in the interests of unionism/loyalism to start negotiations - as the longer they leave it - the less bargaining power they have.
I for one am quite happy they are keeping their heads stuck in the sand.
This way we will keep our Irish Flag and anthem on reunification !

Why would they start negotiations now when, as the election results show, there is not a single hint that they are about to be out flanked, out voted, or out numbered any time soon? EG has argued the balls off all comers on this subject over the last couple of weeks. Maybe you missed his posts - big long things with a wee fleg on top?

[AQMP]

The GFA starts with a "Declaration of Support" which all participants agreed to endorse. This Declaration includes the following phrases [my emphasis]:
"... we firmly dedicate ourselves to the achievement of reconciliation, tolerance, and mutual trust..."
"We are committed to partnership, equality and mutual respect"
"[Government] shall be founded on the principles of full respect for, and equality of, civil, political, social and cultural rights, of freedom from discrimination for all citizens, and of parity of esteem and of just and equal treatment for the identity, ethos, and aspirations of both communities;"
"[Participants] recognise the birthright of all the people of Northern Ireland to identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both, as they may so choose"

Could EG or someone point out the above to that arsehole Elliott ?

Does Elliott post on this website? If so, any idea of his User Name?

(No hurry, btw - it can wait until I've heard back from Eamonnca1)

TonyBaloney?? (With apologies to the real TB)

[lynchbhoy]

Why would they start negotiations now when, as the election results show, there is not a single hint that they are about to be out flanked, out voted, or out numbered any time soon? EG has argued the balls off all comers on this subject over the last couple of weeks. Maybe you missed his posts - big long things with a wee fleg on top?

Your answer is the typical unionist/loyalist response. You also miss the big massive elephant in the room point !!

why does anyone take action ahead of time !

unionists/loyalists wont take action because turkeys dont vote for Christmas (even though Christmas is coming just as reunification is!) - unionists/loyalists dont want to engage as this is an admission that the 'union' will fall. Loylists/unionists just dont want to face this reality.

If you knew you were going to need money for a holiday - you would start saving money before the actual holiday date.
if you needed to pass an exam - you would presumably start studying before the actual exam.
Why indeed would anyone undertake to start negotiations with an impending reunification.
so while the unionists/loyalists cover their eyes, ears and stick their heads in the sand - they are month by month losing the ability to broker a better deal for themselves.
I am all for it.
its amazing how people like yourself and unionists/loyalists like evil myles etc just cannot see the wood from the trees and will put up lengthy nonsensical arguments in a vain attempt to look like they are 'winning' a debate when they dont and wont engage about the actual reality !
Long may it continue !!
I'd much prefer industry to stay in greater Dublin than lesser belfast !!

[Evil Genius]

Why would they start negotiations now when, as the election results show, there is not a single hint that they are about to be out flanked, out voted, or out numbered any time soon? EG has argued the balls off all comers on this subject over the last couple of weeks. Maybe you missed his posts - big long things with a wee fleg on top?

Your answer is the typical unionist/loyalist response. You also miss the big massive elephant in the room point !!

why does anyone take action ahead of time !

unionists/loyalists wont take action because turkeys dont vote for Christmas (even though Christmas is coming just as reunification is!) - unionists/loyalists dont want to engage as this is an admission that the 'union' will fall. Loylists/unionists just dont want to face this reality.

If you knew you were going to need money for a holiday - you would start saving money before the actual holiday date.
if you needed to pass an exam - you would presumably start studying before the actual exam.
Why indeed would anyone undertake to start negotiations with an impending reunification.
so while the unionists/loyalists cover their eyes, ears and stick their heads in the sand - they are month by month losing the ability to broker a better deal for themselves.
I am all for it.
its amazing how people like yourself and unionists/loyalists like evil myles etc just cannot see the wood from the trees and will put up lengthy nonsensical arguments in a vain attempt to look like they are 'winning' a debate when they dont and wont engage about the actual reality !
Long may it continue !!
I'd much prefer industry to stay in greater Dublin than lesser belfast !!

Elephants do not live in Ireland. Perhaps it is just a Púca  in your room?

Anyhow, I have listed ad nauseum  at length the reasons why I feel a UI is anything but inevitable.

Perhaps you might list for me your case* for why it is?


* - Merely saying "It will happen" is not good enough...