Queen Elizabeth to visit Croke Park

[pintsofguinness]

I wouldn't accept, I think honours are a backwards practice. Funny over here in England I find myself in debates with people who haven't a clue of British history, if you heard some of the chats!!! I would be flying back down that que asap, but sure the lads on here hate to think that there are other interpreations on nationalism, republicanism, love of your nation and views on how to unite or people and then our land. But sure if we aren't froathing at the mouth like a dog with rabies we are either unionists or some other loathsome character.

You live in England?  I did that for a while too. First thing I noticed about the English was they didn't give a toss about Ireland, know nothing of its history, are more interested in soap operas and football, and as soon as they find out what their ancestors had done to Ireland they're a bit horrified by it. Every opinion poll I ever saw in England showed widespread support for Irish unity. As far as they're concerned everyone in the north is a Paddy, they can't tell the difference between the catholics and the prods, they don't know what all the fighting is about and it bores them to tears every time it pollutes their news bulletins.

One fella sitting on the bus in Manchester summed it up for me. "You see Northern Ireland mate? If we had our way, we'd give it you back tomorrow."

That's why I roll my eyes at the Brit haters on here. They're like the victim of school bullying who grew up and didn't let the grudge go, but the bully himself has forgotten all about it and wants to be friends.

Who are the people here who hates ordinary english people going about their life?
Name them.
and if you're finished crying you can address my earlier point.

[Nally Stand]

Yes. She is just another leader. Of course. I would say if the Austrian Head of State (for instance) came to Ireland, there would not be the same debates going on though, wouldn't you say? Then again, the the Austrian Head of State isn't the head of an army which has occupied Ireland, murdered Irishmen and women for the past forty years under the guise of "keeping the peace" and then continued to lie about it and deny it's activities to this very day. Let's just all pretend the victims of her forces don't actually exist then shall we? Now, that's better. How mature are WE!!!

The Troubles are over. Didn't you get the memo?

So the views of the victims don't matter?? No, I didn't get that memo. The victims of her army should stop feeling hurt about being told to "move on" and to "stop living in the past" and that they should stop seeking the truth from britain because there is now peace? And they are "dinosaurs" and "brit haters" for feeling hurt at the visit in May? GOTCHA.

Now I didn't really say any of that. Did I?

You know this isn't a terribly impressive technique. You take someone's comments, extrapolate a completely different and exaggerated point from it, stick a question mark on the and and add 'GOTCHA'.

Why do you feel the need to put words in the mouths of your opponents? Can you not confine yourself to addressing what people actually said?

For someone who strives to come across as Mr Morally High & Mighty, you have repeatedly ignored the references to british army victims' feelings in the whole debate (which is typical among the "mature", "moving forward" queen welcoming brigade); furthermore you have dismissed them by saying that "the troubles are over" (tell that to them), and have described people who disagree with this visit as "brit haters" (despite many/most of them opposing it based on respect for those most hurt by her army). So I would think what I said in my post seems to be the gist of your arguments so far in fairness.

P.s. I'd also like you to name these users who have been "brit haters" on the board.

[Eamonnca1]

For someone who strives to come across as Mr Morally High & Mighty, you have repeatedly ignored the references to british army victims' feelings in the whole debate (which is typical among the "mature", "moving forward" queen welcoming brigade); furthermore you have dismissed them by saying that "the troubles are over" (tell that to them), and have described people who disagree with this visit as "brit haters" (despite many/most of them opposing it based on respect for those most hurt by her army). So I would think what I said in my post seems to be the gist of your arguments so far in fairness.

P.s. I'd also like you to name these users who have been "brit haters" on the board.

I would draw a difference between the knuckle-dragging chuckies who would fight with their own shadow and those who actually have a reason to be hurt.

Of course some people have hurt feelings. Of course people have lost friends and relatives and I'm sorry to hear what you said in the private message from you about that.  Do you think I didn't? Do you think people on the other side didn't lose anyone?

So people are hurt on all sides.  Now what? Do we go through life full of hatred and bitterness? Do we hold grudges that last for decades? Or do we try to move on?  It's too early you say? How long do we have to wait then? 50 more years? 60?  100?  I'm afraid it's always going to be "too soon" for some and there's always going to be some people who are going to be hurt, but we have to move on.  We have to try and normalise relations no matter how much it hurts. 

You think we're the only people in the world who have suffered?  Look at Germany and Poland. Look at the death factories that the Nazis set up in Germany and in Eastern Europe 60 odd years ago. Relations between Germany and Poland might not be the warmest, but Angela Merkel can visit Poland in 2009 and light candles of remembrance beside Lech Kaczynski to commemorate the anniversary of the war.  Poland and Germany can work together and get things done.  They might not be best of friends but it's a start.

Look at the Tutsis and Hutus in Rwanda. 800,000 people slaughtered in 100 days.  And after everything that's happened they're still stuck with each other and they have to get along whether they like it or not.

Look at the plight of the blacks in South Africa under the apartheid regime. Look at the nations of Eastern Europe living at Soviet gunpoint for 40 years.  Do you think they're indulging in self pity or are they getting on with the job of building a better future for their people?

As for us, there's people in the north of Ireland who we have to convince that their future lies in a united Ireland.  We're not going to do that if we keep showing an instinctive open hostility to everything that they hold dear.  Whether we like it or not, this bizarre system of a hereditary monarchy is something that they feel strongly about in the same way that we feel about our system of a republic.  We don't have to agree with monarchy as a means of governing Ireland or any part of it (God knows I certainly don't) but if they as individuals want to retain citizenship that reflects a British identity then we should respect that in the same way that we want them to respect our identity as Irish citizens. We can't ask them to respect our traditions, aspirations and values if we don't respect theirs.

It's OK to say "I'm not British," there's no hatred involved in a statement like that. But it's not OK to say "I'm not British therefore I hate their flag and their head of state." Anybody could use personal grief to reject progress, it's a lot harder to move beyond it and make things better.

This is a sincere attempt to answer your questions.

[armaghniac]

But it's not OK to say "I'm not British therefore I hate their flag and their head of state."

It is also OK and reasonable to say "I'm not British and I resent their occupying my country". The situation is not quite the same as Poland and Germany as the problem is not in the past but remains.

But the problem has to be advanced and things have to happen that did not happen before. Peter Robinson going to Mass is part of this and QEII visiting is another. We have to push on.

[Nally Stand]

A sincere attempt it is. You are not drawing parallels in your references to Germany & Poland etc though. The conflicts you mention have been extensively dealt with by the various sides where both sides will concede that they were involved in a conflict. In Ireland, we are only emerging from a long messy conflict. The various paramilitaries have all acknowledged their roles and we are only now slowly BEGINNING to see truths emerge from them. My point all along is that the same CANNOT be said of the british army. In my view, while the british continue to claim that they were not involved in the conflict, and were merely a peace-keeper, and while they continue to withhold the truth of their dirty war from their victims, then the queen of england coming here to talk about moving on may as well be a two fingered salute to those victims of the british army. As I already said, if britain admitted it was an active protagonist in the war, apologised to it's victims and came clean on collusion, perhaps then QU2 would be more welcome. As it is, popular media, in their attempts to "move forward" are ignoring the opinions of british army victims, and portraying everyone who supports them as brit hating, dissident, dinosaurs which is grossly insulting.

[lfdown2]

Does no-one think that (as is implied either on this thread or the thread in general discussion) the only reason for her visiting Croke Park is to issue an apology?

[Orior]

Does no-one think that (as is implied either on this thread or the thread in general discussion) the only reason for her visiting Croke Park is to issue an apology?

Actions speak louder than words. She should either

a) hand back the six counties

or

b) bend over and let Kenny give her one while he sings "Who's the daddy m'am? Who's the Daddy?"

[Stall the Bailer]

This is the first time I have seen such a fast growing thread on the board about a British royal visit to Ireland. She and members of her family have been to Ireland many a time.

Why the uproar now and not the previous times?
Is it because she is visiting your part of Ireland?
Are you a partition protester?
For me republicans usually don't pay heed to the border. 
It seems to me, a lot of ye do.

[take_yer_points]

I wonder will Ronan O'Gara be part of the welcoming committee...

[Rossfan]

[quote
But the problem has to be advanced and things have to happen that did not happen before. Peter Robinson going to Mass is part of this and QEII visiting is another. We have to push on.

One sensible poster here !!!

If we have to wait for everyone who was hurt by Brits/RUC/IRA/UVF/INLA/UDR etc etc etc to die before we move on .......we'll never do so.

[trueblue1234]

Not too sure how I'd feel to see her in Croke park tbh. I prob wouldn't be over the moon so I'll do my best to ignore it.

What I do have to laugh at here are certain posters harping on about moving on etc and yet when there's a discussion about SF they're the first to jump all over it referring to SF's history. Maybe if your going to push the whole moving on scenario then it should be over everything. Not just the things that you deem necessary to move on from.

[Lar Naparka]

A sincere attempt it is. You are not drawing parallels in your references to Germany & Poland etc though. The conflicts you mention have been extensively dealt with by the various sides where both sides will concede that they were involved in a conflict. In Ireland, we are only emerging from a long messy conflict. The various paramilitaries have all acknowledged their roles and we are only now slowly BEGINNING to see truths emerge from them. My point all along is that the same CANNOT be said of the british army. In my view, while the british continue to claim that they were not involved in the conflict, and were merely a peace-keeper, and while they continue to withhold the truth of their dirty war from their victims, then the queen of england coming here to talk about moving on may as well be a two fingered salute to those victims of the british army. As I already said, if britain admitted it was an active protagonist in the war, apologised to it's victims and came clean on collusion, perhaps then QU2 would be more welcome. As it is, popular media, in their attempts to "move forward" are ignoring the opinions of british army victims, and portraying everyone who supports them as brit hating, dissident, dinosaurs which is grossly insulting.

I know it's hard to forget and forgive the Brits kicking in your door and laying all about them with a heavy hand. I certainly don't expect you or others who suffered in this way at their hands to lay aside the past
That has been the English way of protecting their interests back through history and I'm afraid it ain't going to change anytime soon if ever. But I've no doubt whatever that if the French took over our county, our ancestors' lot would have been any different.
The strong always bully the weak: they have, they are and they will. Also, they will never learn. The Russians couldn't conquer Afghanistan by brute force and the Americans can't do it either. The Germans, French, Spanish, Japs- the whole sodden lot of them have always put their self –interests first and never bothered about moral rights and wrongs.
HMG was, and probably still is, quite willing to kick the crap out of nationalists and unionists alike when it best suits Brits' interests.
Right now, with international interest focussed on Ireland like never before, it seems Whitehall realises the futility of trying to maintain a political and military presence in Ireland and wants to get shut of the whole effin' lot of us and that includes the gents who ponce about in bowler hats and orange sashes.
They want peace and co-operation between both islands because they see no benefit in doing otherwise, hence their lovey, dovey approach to Ireland, north and south. That could change, but for the present, it's better than their policies of the past.
It has never been the Brits' way for the monarch to apologise about anything. I don't see Liz saying she is sorry for anything that happened in the north in recent times. But HMG, through her Prime Minister, did apologise for the actions of her army o Bloody Sunday. That's their way and that is as good as we are going to get.
Sure, Tony Blair did likewise in regard to the Famine. But some of you may recall that Blair had no intention of doing this until he was told to do so. When he first was told that Bertie was asking for a British apology for what happened back then, Blair retorted that maybe Bertie should learn a bit about history. He had to be acting under orders from somewhere when he retracted his original statement.
I know her visit to Croke Park will upset many decent people but it is a symbolic visit; she knows damn well what happened there and the hurt it caused to the nationalist community.
I expect her to come out with a flowery speech all about the lot of us moving forward in a spirit of unity and peaceful co-operation and that sort of guff. That is as good as it will get.
I am a bit cynical about the real British motives for her visit but the vast majority of people here will welcome this as a sign of better things to come and I regard myself as a democrat.
If that's what the majority wants, so be it

[Orior]

I haven't ever seen M'am protest when anyone from south Armagh or West Kerry visits Buckingham palace.

So we shouldn't protest when M'am visits our place.

[armaghniac]

Right now, with international interest focussed on Ireland like never before, it seems Whitehall realises the futility of trying to maintain a political and military presence in Ireland and wants to get shut of the whole effin' lot of us and that includes the gents who ponce about in bowler hats and orange sashes.
They want peace and co-operation between both islands because they see no benefit in doing otherwise, hence their lovey, dovey approach to Ireland, north and south.

Exactly. It suits them to want what we want, so we should not be pragmatic rather than too fundamentalist about things.Even if it does stick in the craw, sometimes.

[Fuzzman]

Sorry for asking a silly question but is that Drico holding his mouth behind her ladyship