The Luke "Ming" Flanagan Thread

[macdanger2]

Have you ever thought that the french people don't want this level of immigration and this is how they are reacting to it?

Comes back to what I said in a different thread about Ireland - if the government don't tackle it now and ensure that a fair system of visas where need arises is introduced there will be a backlash and rise of similar parties.

You are some clown

Check out the rise of the UKIP. Did you ever think it would happen there? Ordinary people angry at how their government have run the place and what it's turned into.

but sure that would never happen in ireland begorrah and bejasus...sure we'll have a few guinnesses and stick on a bit of aul U2. Aren't we great and multi-cultural and and all that.

When your kids emigrate for good then come back to me on your high horses.

I have no doubt it could happen here, not mentioning any names but I could guess a few folks on here who might vote for UKIP and the likes...... However, keeping "them" out in order to avoid having a far-right party seems a bit self-defeating.

Your kids have emmigrated for good?? And it's the fault of non-EU immigrants? Nothing to do with decisions made by Irish men and women??? 

[AZOffaly]

Yep. But I'm confused about these people 'coming over on benefits' and ALSO 'taking our jobs'.

So it doesn't affect you then. Typical "sure i'm alright bejasus" attitude.
The PC brigade are alive and well on this board.
Wait until you are on the other side wondering how you are going to pay a mortgage and relying on family/charities to survive.

Nice attitude. I'm asking you to explain how these guys coming over and getting free housing, are taking our jobs? Or is it the Poles and other EU lads you have a problem with? I'm confused by your stance, which seems to be 'If you're not Irish, get the hell out'.

I'm not trying to pick a row with you, nor would I consider myself 'PC'. However I hope I have basic compassion for deserving cases who seek refuge in this country, and I also have no issue with people who are entitled to be here due to our EU status, being here. So which do you not like?

[foxcommander]

However I hope I have basic compassion for deserving cases who seek refuge in this country

You'll find most of them are liars. Ireland is an easy touch for money. Hardly come thousands of miles for the weather.

Why not go to the French riviera, the Algarve or perhaps a nice little chalet in Tuscany? They are far nicer places to live.

[AZOffaly]

However I hope I have basic compassion for deserving cases who seek refuge in this country

You'll find most of them are liars. Ireland is an easy touch for money. Hardly come thousands of miles for the weather.

Why not go to the French riviera, the Algarve or perhaps a nice little chalet in Tuscany? They are far nicer places to live.

OK. So it's the refugee seekers you have the issue with? If that's the case, then I'd have to say the refugees are not a big reason for unemployment in Ireland. And i'm not even going to touch the 'Most of them are liars' comment. I think that's an outrageous statement to make.

[Hardy]

However I hope I have basic compassion for deserving cases who seek refuge in this country

You'll find most of them are liars. Ireland is an easy touch for money. Hardly come thousands of miles for the weather.

Why not go to the French riviera, the Algarve or perhaps a nice little chalet in Tuscany? They are far nicer places to live.

You're warming up nicely now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5iUoFeqHPM

[lynchbhoy]

However I hope I have basic compassion for deserving cases who seek refuge in this country

You'll find most of them are liars. Ireland is an easy touch for money. Hardly come thousands of miles for the weather.

Why not go to the French riviera, the Algarve or perhaps a nice little chalet in Tuscany? They are far nicer places to live.

OK. So it's the refugee seekers you have the issue with? If that's the case, then I'd have to say the refugees are not a big reason for unemployment in Ireland. And i'm not even going to touch the 'Most of them are liars' comment. I think that's an outrageous statement to make.

its not. a lot of 'refugees' are not actual refugees.
eg a lot (if not most) of the Nigerians are not displaced by war or famine etc - sure the Irish taxpayer has paid out a fortune on legal aid for ridiculous cases - eg that lady living in Sligo who claimed she couldn't go back as her daughters would face female genital mutilation - to find that she was lying through her teeth. theres plenty more cases I have heard through my work.
we have enough liars of our own scrounging the dole
Only Ireland and England pay all kinds of benefits - healthcare, dole, housing straight away (no unemployed construction worker will get that)  - other countries like france, Italy etc require you have to be working or living there for 2 years before becoming eligible.


I understand what foxcommander is saying on 'taking our jobs' as I now plenty of construction workers/tradesmen who were working in various sites, to be replaced by EU immigrants and non eu immigrants because they were cheaper.
so while it is not a nice thing to say, there is an element of truth to it.
my brother had a guy labouring for him in a site behind st stephens green shopping centre before the bust. this chap was a mechanical engineer from Latvia, another labourer from turkey came from a farming background.
Another gang of brickies got the sack, these two labourers were promoted to become brickies/blocklayers and it was left to the brother and his workmate to 'build the corners' while the former labourers built along the line.

heard other wretched stories from other tradesmen I knew.

however no immigrants are taking Irish jobs now in construction, as theres feck all jobs in construction.

I will wait to see what happens if/when the gov create construction jobs as to who will get them.
will it be skilled Irish construction tradesmen or like the gamma construction or priory hall unscrupulous builders and they hire unskilled cheap Irish/immigrants to do the work.

as iv said before, we need proper green card system
we need to stop giving welfare to lazy Irish and immigrants (for first two years)
we need to put all dole persons on some kind of work scheme to clean up towns or revamp community centres/parks etc for kids, elderly..
we need a type of 'safepass' kind of system where 'tradesmen' must do a practical course and pass it with flying colours before they are allowed to work in that chosen field (that's all not just immigrants)
this would gurantee quality - subcontractors etc would not get signoff from architects without valid certified tradesmen

imo

[AZOffaly]

Anyone who is not a genuine refugee and is not allowed in the country, should not be allowed stay in the country. But throwing phrases like 'most of them are liars' or 'a lot' of refugees are not actual refugees is a pandering to the notion that these people are somehow responsible for what big builders and other chancers have done to the country.

Anyone who is an EU national deserves to be here. If they are undercutting Irish workers, then either Irish workers are pricing themselves out of the market (and in the boom that's exactly what they were doing) or else the employer is cutting the corners. And who are the employers?

I'm not a complete liberal, if you are not supposed to be in the country, then I'm sorry but you can't stay. If however you are a genuine hardship case, trying to flee from a country where you are either oppressed or starving, then I think there's nothing wrong with a humane approach to that question.

[AZOffaly]

Also, just on not giving welfare to immigrants for the first 2 years. How are they supposed to live? In Saint Vincent de Paul hostels? If you are genuinely fleeing a country, and seeking refuge, chances are you're not going to have a pile of money built up.

I would support some sort of 'certification' procedure for dole and welfare for ALL recipients, maybe an annual review. If you are not actively looking for work, and can prove interviews etc, then you lose some benefits. There are a fair few Irish that would fail this test, never mind anyone from Latvia, Poland or Sub Saharan Africa.

[Hardy]

Yes. It's very simple. Certain categories of people are entitled to live here and work here. Other categories are not. Vilifying either category of people is racist and dangerous.

Condemning those who are entitled to be here as "taking our jobs", or sneering at those who have applied for and been granted Irish citizenship and are therefore now as Irish me, is also nasty and UKIP-ish.

Vilifying those who are not entitled to be here, but have come here anyway, because they could, is also nasty, racist and dangerous. If I live in poverty in Africa, I won't hesitate to take advantage of any opportunity to better my family's conditions and I won't worry too much about the niceties of one or another country's immigration policies. I can't imagine there's a single human being who do otherwise. By the same token, if I get refused and deported, I won't feel I have grounds for complaint, as long as I'm treated humanely.

The responsibility for administering immigration rules lies, not with the immigrants, but with the government. Leave the unfortunate immigrants alone and instead pressure your government to put an efficient, decent and humane immigration process in place.

[foxcommander]

Anyone who is not a genuine refugee and is not allowed in the country, should not be allowed stay in the country. But throwing phrases like 'most of them are liars' or 'a lot' of refugees are not actual refugees is a pandering to the notion that these people are somehow responsible for what big builders and other chancers have done to the country.

Anyone who is an EU national deserves to be here. If they are undercutting Irish workers, then either Irish workers are pricing themselves out of the market (and in the boom that's exactly what they were doing) or else the employer is cutting the corners. And who are the employers?

I'm not a complete liberal, if you are not supposed to be in the country, then I'm sorry but you can't stay. If however you are a genuine hardship case, trying to flee from a country where you are either oppressed or starving, then I think there's nothing wrong with a humane approach to that question.

I agree with you on most of your points, I wish that the actual cases of refugees was genuine and i'd have no issue with assisting them. Unfortunately now most cases that come up aren't in that category. What I was trying to say that Ireland needs to close the loopholes to stop making it an attractive place for welfare tourists.

Look at this case from last year
http://www.independent.ie/regionals/corkman/news/exzimbabwean-flying-in-from-uk-faces-welfare-fraud-29359511.html

This type of fraudulent behavior needs to be cut out.

We have had jobs created in the country and should do our utmost to ensure the younger generation can stay at home if the opportunities are there. EU Citizens have a right to work in the country. I never disputed that. Ditto I've said the Irish got a bit above their station during the boom and won't work menial jobs. Those that are able to work take on these positions but refuse should have benefits cut. Those that need supplements to make ends meet while working lower paid jobs should be assisted. Everyone should try pay their way if they can and contribute to society. If irish citizens can be taken off full welfare then that would be an achievement. You won't do that by importing cheap labour - it just adds to the problem when they need services for their families plus the extra payments for child benefits etc. Schools, hospitals and other services are at breaking point but haven't been addressed.

I also would agree that there are unscrupulous irish employers who have no issue f*$%ing over their own people to make extra money. I despise them for it. The banking crisis showed that the upper echelons of society have no regard for those lower on the totem pole and are willing to do anything to keep themselves there - politicans, developers, financiers all found guilty yet get off with it and leave it to the minions to tighten their belts again and make do with even less.

The politicians like Shatter won't have to live in these ghetto areas they are creating so it's not a big deal to them. They have the best of private schooling for their kids and private healthcare so they don't have to wait. They get a pat on the back from Brussels for their humanitarian work and applause from a whole new league of Fine Gael voters he's creating from these citizenship ceremonies he officiated over. You can see how this sort of adulation can go to your head...

http://www.africaworldnewspaper.com/alan-shatter-africaworld-man-of-the-year-2012/

Is it too much to ask that Ireland looks out for it's own people?

[lynchbhoy]

Lovely sentiments lads but not very practical.

Correct to say that the problem is with the systems in place as they does not stop those flouting the system - whether they are poor from non eu countries or the unskilled workers taking skilled workers jobs.
People will always flout the system if they can.
That's why I suggested measures to counteract some of these!

It's not very Christian or empathetic of me but I don't care about dole people or others that haven't contributed to our exchequer - while I am one of many heavily taxed footing this bill.

If I was unemployed I would get some financial assistance  bit many ex self employed tradesmen are getting nothing and are ruined , despite also contributing to exchequer
Hardly fair

So feck Sinn Fein, it's me Fein for me and capitalism a all the way.
Systems need fixed!

[foxcommander]

Vilifying those who are not entitled to be here, but have come here anyway, because they could, is also nasty, racist and dangerous. If I live in poverty in Africa, I won't hesitate to take advantage of any opportunity to better my family's conditions and I won't worry too much about the niceties of one or another country's immigration policies. I can't imagine there's a single human being who do otherwise. By the same token, if I get refused and deported, I won't feel I have grounds for complaint, as long as I'm treated humanely.

The responsibility for administering immigration rules lies, not with the immigrants, but with the government. Leave the unfortunate immigrants alone and instead pressure your government to put an efficient, decent and humane immigration process in place.

Oh Jesus! Let's hug a tree.

You could have said "don't hate the playa..."

[Hardy]

Vilifying those who are not entitled to be here, but have come here anyway, because they could, is also nasty, racist and dangerous. If I live in poverty in Africa, I won't hesitate to take advantage of any opportunity to better my family's conditions and I won't worry too much about the niceties of one or another country's immigration policies. I can't imagine there's a single human being who do otherwise. By the same token, if I get refused and deported, I won't feel I have grounds for complaint, as long as I'm treated humanely.

The responsibility for administering immigration rules lies, not with the immigrants, but with the government. Leave the unfortunate immigrants alone and instead pressure your government to put an efficient, decent and humane immigration process in place.

Oh Jesus! Let's hug a tree.

You could have said "don't hate the playa..."

Oh Jesus! Let's flog an immigrant. They're all liars, you know.

[Mike Sheehy]

When your kids emigrate for good  then come back to me on your high horses.

Why not go to the French riviera, the Algarve or perhaps a nice little chalet in Tuscany? They are far nicer places to live.

mabye the kids decided there were far nicer places to live !!

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

So feck Sinn Fein, it's me Fein for me and capitalism a all the way.
Systems need fixed!

Yeah, what a soaraway success casino capitalism has been.

For Capitalism to work,  there must be controls - the socialisation of gambler debts is a shameful obscenity visited upon those yet to see the light of day in this State by the culpable, complicit and incompetent,  by varying degrees, with no combination thereof mutually exclusive.

We've had so-termed administrations that have proved to be pitifully inadequate on the European political stage, but don't you worry, they're crucifying the least well off. You'll be grand.