mc ginn and lennon

[saffron sam2]

Whereas it is equally well known that there is a strand amongst extreme "Loyalism" which refuses to support the NI team because they are "too Fenian"/"not British enough".
Which fcukwittery explains why, for instance, Johnny Adair has been seen wearing an England football top, or Billy Hutchinson said he wanted England to win, even when they played NI (2005).
Such scumbags are invariably also Rangers fans, hence my suspicion that it is not coincidental that these threats followed immediately after an Old Firm game, rather than an NI game.

I, along with many others on this, am not as au fait with the nuances of the various strands of extreme loyalism / unionist paramilitarism as you appear to be. So for people like me could you distinguish between PUP man Billy Hutchinson's strand and that of PUP man Winston Churchill "Winkie" Rea. You know, the same Winston Churchill "Winkie" Rea, head honcho of the 1st Shankill Northern Ireland Supporters Club.

Could you also explain why Billy Hutchinson has no problem supporting a club that is becoming increasingly "Fenian"?

Despite what you may suggest, there is evidence that many hardline Loyalists do in fact support NI. For every example of an English supporter, I can you give an example of a former Northern Ireland supporter who has stopped attending matches because of the behaviour of such sections of the support. To extrapolate, I can also give at least one example of a moderate OD NI supporter who stopped posting on owc because of the direction it was taking.

However, assuming you are correct about this strand of extreme loyalism, surely that makes some of the actions at Windsor even  more galling, given that it must have been the ordinary fan, rather than the loyalist bigot who was responsible.

Could you also, for the record, post here the results of the poll on owc entitled "Which mainland (sic) team do you support?"

Oh, and personally, I blame Rangers fans for the bullets. Never entered my mind it was NI fans.

[Main Street]

Oh, and personally, I blame Rangers fans for the bullets. Never entered my mind it was NI fans.

In the complete absence of evidence, you can blame Ranger's fans?
Surely you mean your best guess would be that the culprits are NI born Ranger's fans?
And who knows what else they may support.

[saffron sam2]

Oh, and personally, I blame Rangers fans for the bullets. Never entered my mind it was NI fans.

In the complete absence of evidence, you can blame Ranger's fans?
Surely you mean your best guess would be that the culprits are NI born Ranger's fans?
And who knows what else they may support.

Yip, that's exactly who I'm blaming.

[Myles Na G.]

There is an article in today's Belfast Telegraph about Lennon which clearly shows that the campaign again Neill was more than a couple of blokes with 10 pence pieces.

The paper lists many examples from the six counties, Scotland and even Norway when the entire set of OWC fans booed him. Others include effigies on bonfires, hangman painted on walls, being driven off the road and insults to girlfriends.

Maybe Evil Genius can can explain how a small number of bad apples can get around so much?

Maybe you can explain why you misquote and spin facts to make your argument?
http://www.board67.com/celtic-related/11978-neil-lennon-celtic-core.html
a 'section of the NI support in Norway' has become the entire set in your post, while you seem to blame NI fans for driving Lennon off the road even though the incident took place in Scotland! And I don't doubt the 'insults to girlfriend happened in Scotland too, since that's where he was living at the time. But sure. Don't let the facts spoil a good oul' bigoted rant.

[Evil Genius]

Whereas it is equally well known that there is a strand amongst extreme "Loyalism" which refuses to support the NI team because they are "too Fenian"/"not British enough".
Which fcukwittery explains why, for instance, Johnny Adair has been seen wearing an England football top, or Billy Hutchinson said he wanted England to win, even when they played NI (2005).
Such scumbags are invariably also Rangers fans, hence my suspicion that it is not coincidental that these threats followed immediately after an Old Firm game, rather than an NI game.

I, along with many others on this, am not as au fait with the nuances of the various strands of extreme loyalism / unionist paramilitarism as you appear to be. So for people like me could you distinguish between PUP man Billy Hutchinson's strand and that of PUP man Winston Churchill "Winkie" Rea. You know, the same Winston Churchill "Winkie" Rea, head honcho of the 1st Shankill Northern Ireland Supporters Club.

Hutchinson is a "Loyalist" [sic]  who declines to support NI, apparently because they are "insufficiently British" (whatever that means). Rea is a "Loyalist" who supports NI - presumably they are  sufficiently "British" for him.
You would need to ask them to explain this contradiction, not me, since I haven't the foggiest.
I support the NI team because that's where I was born and brought up.

Could you also explain why Billy Hutchinson has no problem supporting a club that is becoming increasingly "Fenian"?

Er, because he's a d**khead? It's a bit like asking a Shinner like Martin McGuinness why he has no problem administering British Rule in Ireland.
That is, in my experience, political extremists of their kind rarely feel the need to employ Logic and Reasoning when forming their view of the world.

Despite what you may suggest, there is evidence that many hardline Loyalists do in fact support NI. For every example of an English supporter, I can you give an example of a former Northern Ireland supporter who has stopped attending matches because of the behaviour of such sections of the support. To extrapolate, I can also give at least one example of a moderate OD NI supporter who stopped posting on owc because of the direction it was taking.

Nowhere have I suggested that no hardline NI Loyalist supports NI: some do, some don't.
In fact, if you re-read the quotation of mine which you used, you will see that I said that there is a strand amongst NI Loyalists who support England.
And with regard to these, I think it's safe to assume that many/most of these will have chosen Rangers as their club side to support, whether actively, or "in spirit".
Therefore considering this latest threat to the two Celtic guys followed an OF game, rather than an NI game, my suspicion is that it is the Rangers connection which prompted this, not the NI one - especially since McGinn is so hugely popular amongst every NI fan I've ever encountered.

However, assuming you are correct about this strand of extreme loyalism, surely that makes some of the actions at Windsor even more galling, given that it must have been the ordinary fan, rather than the loyalist bigot who was responsible.

Not at all.
By "events", I assume you are referring to eg the booing of Neil Lennon at the Norway game. I wasn't at that particular game, but my brother was. He reported that it was not every NI fan who did so, nor even a majority. Rather it was a faction, almost all standing in a group on the Kop, who were 90% responsible. I believe those to have been Linfield/Rangers fans who turned up especially for this game, since it was NL's first at home after joining Celtic.
I believe this for two reasons.
First, a Kop ever-present I know tells me he didn't recognise them as fellow regulars.
Second, I did attend NL's next home game a month later (v Czechs) and not only where the "boo-boys" totally absent, but NL was cheered every time he touched the ball (not that minor details like that ever get reported).

Then again, as a follower of football in Belfast, you will be aware of the phenomenon of football crowds at certain games suddenly being boosted due to reasons which are not entirely to do with the actual football. For example, Donegal Celtic, who normally play before "two men and a dog", once took a "support" which was well into 4 figures to a game against Linfield at WP in the 90's, with the LFC support being similarly inflated.
The fact that there was severe trouble at the game, and afterwards in the city, is hardly coincidental.

Could you also, for the record, post here the results of the poll on owc entitled "Which mainland (sic) team do you support?

I suppose I could - if I were arsed, and I could see the relevance.
But seeing as you brought it up, why don't you  post it and explain how it supports whatever it is you are trying to say.
Then I might reply with my own analysis.
If I could be arsed.

Oh, and personally, I blame Rangers fans for the bullets. Never entered my mind it was NI fans.

No, but Banana Brain basically said it was (post #6), which is the point to which I was replying on this thread, when you intervened.

[red hander]

Radio Foyle reporting a bullet was also found in an envelope addressed to Paddy McCourt

[Doogie Browser]

It must have been posted across the border! Snail mail!

[Banana Man]

Evil tribal mates must have realised they had forgot about McCourt until we highlighted it. Scumbags and yes EG I said it was NI Fans, again any amateur profiler could work that one out, even you if you removed the blinkers.

I suppose this is the loyalist version of decommissioning, by posting out all their ammo over a period of time, that's about as much as their limited scope of brainwork could process

[brokencrossbar1]

The Story

Celtic and Rangers were playing the last match of the season and the winners would become champions of the Scottish League. A rather small and thin Rangers supporter got confused on his way into the stadium and ended up standing in the Celtic part of the ground. This was very bad news for the poor wee man and he quickly took off his Rangers scarf and stood there trying to look even smaller and being very afraid.
The match kicked off and within minutes Rangers scored the first goal. The little chap wanted to cheer but common sense told him to keep quiet because he was now surrounded by rather bad tempered Celtic supporters. But luck was not with him that day because he realised he had made yet another very stupid mistake. Though he had removed his scarf, he had forgotten to take off his blue and white woolly bobble hat. So there he stood in a sea of green and white looking very conspicuous and feeling terrified for his life.

Not long after the goal was scored a very large, hairy hand appeared from behind and tapped him on the shoulder. He turned round and there behind him stood two gorillas dressed in green and white. The blood drained from his face, he stood like a condemned man. Then a deep voice spoke to him in a broad Glasgow accent.
'Hey you! Go and get me a Bovril!' it said.
He had no choice but to obey, his very life was at stake. The gorilla spoke again.
'And before ye go, leave your shoe here!'
So he meekly took of his shoe, left it on the ground and disappeared off to get a Bovril.
When he returned he handed the drink to the gorilla and looked down to find his shoe. To his horror he discovered that while he was away one of the gorillas had taken an enormous crap in his shoe.
'Put it on!' a voice from behind commanded. Wanting to go on living, he had no choice and reluctantly put his foot back into the shoe. He stood wearing the foul shoe, thinking this was not the best day in his life and things just could not get any worse. Then the voice of the other gorilla spoke from behind.
'Hey you, wee smelly man! Go and get me a Bovril, and leave your other shoe here!'
Again, the poor man had to do what he was told if he wanted to go on living. He squelched off on his one shoe to complete his errand. When he returned with the drink he was not surprised to see that the other shoe now contained a large, stinking deposit.
'Put it on!' came the command from behind.
The unfortunate man had to stand in his shoes for the rest of the match. The smell was so bad by the end that the crowd moved away and he had quite a large space to himself.
After what seemed like a lifetime the final whistle blew and he was free to leave the ground. Off he squelched, sliding around in his shoes, followed by a large cloud of buzzing flies now.
As he walked or slid down the road from the stadium he came upon a BBC outside broadcast van. A reporter in sheepskin coat approached him and wrinkled his nose in disgust as he got near.
'Excuse me sir (god, what a stink), we're doing a report on hatred and violence between Celtic and Rangers fans.'
He put his microphone to the small man's face.
'I wonder if you have any comments'.
The small man grabbed the microphone and said.
'Yes I certainly have. There will always be trouble in this city, so long as they are shitting in our shoes and we are pissing in their Bovril!'

.

[Evil Genius]

Evil tribal mates must have realised they had forgot about McCourt until we highlighted it. Scumbags and yes EG I said it was NI Fans, again any amateur profiler could work that one out, even you if you removed the blinkers.

Niall is one of the most popular and effective players in the NI team. Paddy was widely praised for his performance in our last home friendly, with the fans urging that he start our next competitive game.

Therefore as an "amateur profiler", can you explain why those self-same fans would threaten the two players and weaken the team?

Long experience has shown that the types of low-life who do such things do not (ahem) discriminate when it comes to choosing the targets for their hatred. In that respect, they are hardly dissimilar to you, when they immediately jump to conclusions, and tar every member of a widely divergent group or population with exactly the same brush.


"Anytime I have come on at Windsor Park I have enjoyed it and the fans have been great as well. I just love playing at Windsor Park and I just have to make the most of any opportunity that I might get." - Niall McGinn, 07/10/10

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/international/niall-mcginn-desperate-to-play-part-in-northern-irelands-doubleheader-14969688.html

[Banana Man]

Evil tribal mates must have realised they had forgot about McCourt until we highlighted it. Scumbags and yes EG I said it was NI Fans, again any amateur profiler could work that one out, even you if you removed the blinkers.

Niall is one of the most popular and effective players in the NI team. Paddy was widely praised for his performance in our last home friendly, with the fans urging that he start our next competitive game.

Therefore as an "amateur profiler", can you explain why those self-same fans would threaten the two players and weaken the team?

Long experience has shown that the types of low-life who do such things do not (ahem) discriminate when it comes to choosing the targets for their hatred. In that respect, they are hardly dissimilar to you, when they immediately jump to conclusions, and tar every member of a widely divergent group or population with exactly the same brush.


"Anytime I have come on at Windsor Park I have enjoyed it and the fans have been great as well. I just love playing at Windsor Park and I just have to make the most of any opportunity that I might get." - Niall McGinn, 07/10/10

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/international/niall-mcginn-desperate-to-play-part-in-northern-irelands-doubleheader-14969688.html

hardly dissimilar to me??? Are you for real 

they send bullets in the post, I derive what probable community they are from based on postal marks and demographic profiling and you dare to compare me to these scumbags. You really are showing yourself up to be an A1 bigot. No further comments your honour.

[Evil Genius]

Evil tribal mates must have realised they had forgot about McCourt until we highlighted it. Scumbags and yes EG I said it was NI Fans, again any amateur profiler could work that one out, even you if you removed the blinkers.

Niall is one of the most popular and effective players in the NI team. Paddy was widely praised for his performance in our last home friendly, with the fans urging that he start our next competitive game.

Therefore as an "amateur profiler", can you explain why those self-same fans would threaten the two players and weaken the team?

Long experience has shown that the types of low-life who do such things do not (ahem) discriminate when it comes to choosing the targets for their hatred. In that respect, they are hardly dissimilar to you, when they immediately jump to conclusions, and tar every member of a widely divergent group or population with exactly the same brush.


"Anytime I have come on at Windsor Park I have enjoyed it and the fans have been great as well. I just love playing at Windsor Park and I just have to make the most of any opportunity that I might get." - Niall McGinn, 07/10/10

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/international/niall-mcginn-desperate-to-play-part-in-northern-irelands-doubleheader-14969688.html

hardly dissimilar to me??? Are you for real 

they send bullets in the post, I derive what probable community they are from based on postal marks and demographic profiling and you dare to compare me to these scumbags. You really are showing yourself up to be an A1 bigot. No further comments your honour.

No, you did NOT derive which "community" they came from, you clearly ascribed this despicable action to fans of the NI football team, who come from both "communities".

As I have said before, I have little doubt that the person(s) who did this would describe himself as a "Loyalist " -  the proximity of the Old Firm game is too much of a coincidence for me.

But I do not believe that any fan of the NI football team would threaten two of our most popular and best players, thereby weakening the team - a point that you have conspicuously ignored.

Instead, you jumped in to make an offensive and bigoted allegation against the likes of me and my fellow NI fans, even in the face of all evidence and logic, simply because such a tactic fits in with your previously demonstrated prejudice.

And whilst making such accusations on the internet cannot compare with eg sending bullets by post (obviously), nonetheless it is my contention that the prejudice behind both such mindsets is essentially no different in nature, only in extent.

If you had the self-awareness to recognise this (or is it the integrity to admit it?), then I would hope you should be embarrassed.

But I won't be holding my breath... 

[lynchbhoy]

Evil tribal mates must have realised they had forgot about McCourt until we highlighted it. Scumbags and yes EG I said it was NI Fans, again any amateur profiler could work that one out, even you if you removed the blinkers.

Niall is one of the most popular and effective players in the NI team. Paddy was widely praised for his performance in our last home friendly, with the fans urging that he start our next competitive game.

Therefore as an "amateur profiler", can you explain why those self-same fans would threaten the two players and weaken the team?

Long experience has shown that the types of low-life who do such things do not (ahem) discriminate when it comes to choosing the targets for their hatred. In that respect, they are hardly dissimilar to you, when they immediately jump to conclusions, and tar every member of a widely divergent group or population with exactly the same brush.


"Anytime I have come on at Windsor Park I have enjoyed it and the fans have been great as well. I just love playing at Windsor Park and I just have to make the most of any opportunity that I might get." - Niall McGinn, 07/10/10

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/international/niall-mcginn-desperate-to-play-part-in-northern-irelands-doubleheader-14969688.html

hardly dissimilar to me??? Are you for real 

they send bullets in the post, I derive what probable community they are from based on postal marks and demographic profiling and you dare to compare me to these scumbags. You really are showing yourself up to be an A1 bigot. No further comments your honour.

No, you did NOT derive which "community" they came from, you clearly ascribed this despicable action to fans of the NI football team, who come from both "communities".

As I have said before, I have little doubt that the person(s) who did this would describe himself as a "Loyalist " -  the proximity of the Old Firm game is too much of a coincidence for me.

But I do not believe that any fan of the NI football team would threaten two of our most popular and best players, thereby weakening the team - a point that you have conspicuously ignored.

Instead, you jumped in to make an offensive and bigoted allegation against the likes of me and my fellow NI fans, even in the face of all evidence and logic, simply because such a tactic fits in with your previously demonstrated prejudice.

And whilst making such accusations on the internet cannot compare with eg sending bullets by post (obviously), nonetheless it is my contention that the prejudice behind both such mindsets is essentially no different in nature, only in extent.

If you had the self-awareness to recognise this (or is it the integrity to admit it?), then I would hope you should be embarrassed.

But I won't be holding my breath...

whatever about the rest of your argument - I can see that you and others hold different perspectives on it, I have to say that mcginn and mccourt are not exactly regulars on the ni soccer starting XI.
As well as that you ask about why ni fans would have a go at their own ...well they have been doing it since the days of Johnny Crossan (and before most likely - late 60's) and Johnny wasnt a Celtic player.
Finally, you cant really claim that the ni soccer team derives fans from both sides, there may be a few Irish/catholics/nationalists etc - but jeez this can hardly be more than a handful??
though maybe based on the overall amount of numbers this may be a significant percentage (not taking the p**s)

[Banana Man]

Evil tribal mates must have realised they had forgot about McCourt until we highlighted it. Scumbags and yes EG I said it was NI Fans, again any amateur profiler could work that one out, even you if you removed the blinkers.

Niall is one of the most popular and effective players in the NI team. Paddy was widely praised for his performance in our last home friendly, with the fans urging that he start our next competitive game.

Therefore as an "amateur profiler", can you explain why those self-same fans would threaten the two players and weaken the team?

Long experience has shown that the types of low-life who do such things do not (ahem) discriminate when it comes to choosing the targets for their hatred. In that respect, they are hardly dissimilar to you, when they immediately jump to conclusions, and tar every member of a widely divergent group or population with exactly the same brush.


"Anytime I have come on at Windsor Park I have enjoyed it and the fans have been great as well. I just love playing at Windsor Park and I just have to make the most of any opportunity that I might get." - Niall McGinn, 07/10/10

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/international/niall-mcginn-desperate-to-play-part-in-northern-irelands-doubleheader-14969688.html

hardly dissimilar to me??? Are you for real 

they send bullets in the post, I derive what probable community they are from based on postal marks and demographic profiling and you dare to compare me to these scumbags. You really are showing yourself up to be an A1 bigot. No further comments your honour.

No, you did NOT derive which "community" they came from, you clearly ascribed this despicable action to fans of the NI football team, who come from both "communities".

As I have said before, I have little doubt that the person(s) who did this would describe himself as a "Loyalist " -  the proximity of the Old Firm game is too much of a coincidence for me.

But I do not believe that any fan of the NI football team would threaten two of our most popular and best players, thereby weakening the team - a point that you have conspicuously ignored.

Instead, you jumped in to make an offensive and bigoted allegation against the likes of me and my fellow NI fans, even in the face of all evidence and logic, simply because such a tactic fits in with your previously demonstrated prejudice.

And whilst making such accusations on the internet cannot compare with eg sending bullets by post (obviously), nonetheless it is my contention that the prejudice behind both such mindsets is essentially no different in nature, only in extent.

If you had the self-awareness to recognise this (or is it the integrity to admit it?), then I would hope you should be embarrassed.

But I won't be holding my breath...

it's like trying to talk to a child. I'll repeat for you, I derived like any profiler would what cmmunity they would come from, now out of a choice of two it isn't too hard, I reckon even you could calculate that one out. I stand over my presumption too that they are NI fans, you only have to scan your eye around the crowd at a NI match to see the rangers tops and emblems.

As saffron sam said the largest support of a club team among NI fans is that of Glasgow rangers and if you cannot allude to that point then it is you who will be the one who is embarrassing yourself my little friend.

Also the fans of NI soccer team are almost exclusively from the loyalist side, so you can park up that 'both communities' crap striaght away.

Best players??? then why does little englander worthington continually ignore them?

[Evil Genius]

I'll repeat for you, I derived like any profiler would what cmmunity they would come from, now out of a choice of two it isn't too hard, I reckon even you could calculate that one out.

No you did not.

Had you commented that the perpetrator came from the "Loyalist" community in NI*, no-one would have demurred.

Rather in post #6. you alleged the following:
"... it's the sort of neolithic behaviour from OWC fans that needs highlighted, especially against their failing 'football for all' programme"

That was a clear charge against fans of the NI football team, including me, that you are entirely unable to back up with either evidence or reason - quite the contrary, in fact.

Worse, you insisted on repeating this slur, until (presumably) even you realised that your charge was unsustainable, at which point you tried to claim that you were ascribing this to the Loyalist community generally.

All of which means that after initially betraying your instinctive prejudice, you then demonstrated your stubbornness, before finally displaying a lack of intelligence and integrity, in equal measure.

Congratulations.

* - What next, bears s h i t in the woods? 

I stand over my presumption too that they are NI fans, you only have to scan your eye around the crowd at a NI match to see the rangers tops and emblems.

You know, it's really not very bright to make factual claims that you have no way of backing, especially to someone who is in a position to know the truth of the matter.

As saffron sam said the largest support of a club team among NI fans is that of Glasgow rangers and if you cannot allude to that point then it is you who will be the one who is embarrassing yourself my little friend.

Even if that claim is correct (and I think Man U fans might have something to say on the matter), so what? Just as not all NI fans are Rangers fans, neither are all Rangers fans  fans of the NI team.

All evidence and reasoning suggests that the scum who did this are Loyalists. And not all Loyalists are NI football fans, just as not all NI fans are Loyalists.

Also the fans of NI soccer team are almost exclusively from the loyalist side, so you can park up that 'both communities' crap striaght away.

There is no real way of knowing the current situation, but there was Sports Council(?) survey of NI fans a few years back which revealed that around 8% of the attendance at Windsor comes from a Nationalist background. Therefore this equates to around 1,000 amongst a  crowd of 14,000. I do not know whether this has since changed, but if it has, I would guess that if anything, the numbers have increased.

Anyhow, whether they have or not, it doesn't take away from my contention that not only is there no evidence or reason for NI fans to threaten McGinn and McCourt; on the contrary, there is actually evidence and reason to suggest that they did not.

Best players??? then why does little englander worthington continually ignore them?

I didn't actually say that the two were our "best players". McGinn is one of our best players and hugely popular. And McCourt showed signs in his last game of fulfilling his wonderful taslent in an NI shirt, leading to the concensus amongst the fans that he should now be a starter for us.

As for NW, he first identified and capped Niall when he was a 20 year old with Derry City. Since then, he has made such an impact that he was voted "NI Breakthrough Player" for 2009, and is a guaranteed starter when fit.

As for Paddy, it was NW who recalled him to the NI squad after he had been ignored by Sanchez and McIlroy and if he has only featured intermittently since, that is primarily because he is frequently injured or unfit - as any Celtic fan could tell you.