GPA or GAA?

[Lone Shark]

However...

The other effect that I could see it having is that County panellists would have even less connection with their clubs than they do at present if they only played club championship matches with them. Might that not have drawbacks in itself wrt elitism?

I agree, and this certainly isn't a good thing. I'm fully aware that there are drawbacks, it's just that they are less severe drawbacks than there are with the system at the moment. Now having said that:

(1) I'm not saying that you wave goodbye to your county star in January and say hello again at the end of July. The county player would still play with the club if they weren't county tied that week, and they would still train where possible, perhaps skipping the heavy physical stuff that they're already doing with the county. It would more or less operate like the Celtic League vs Internationals thing in the rugby right now. The key thing that it would not be acceptable to call off a league match because players were missing on county duty.

(2) I'll grant you that ye seem to be in an extreme situation where ye'd be hard hit and none of your rivals would suffer anything like the same penalty. Having said that, my (limited!!) experience is that when club championship rolls around ye'd be in much better shape than them, because ye'd have a much bigger panel of players who are used to playing football, as opposed to teams who've basically used about twenty players across seven league matches.

(3) An imaginative county fixtures committee could actually try to limit the effect of this. Let's take a theoretical league with eight teams, four of which would be missing six players and four of which would be missing two - on the weeks where the county players would be missing then those groups of four could play the games among themselves. I know it'll never be perfect, but hopefully you could avoid the situation where a decimated teams meets a full strength one. I accept that I might be giving a bit too much credit to fixtures committees here.

I disagree with the notion of a players union theoretically but I can see where they're coming from, and we are in no position to knock anyone who puts in the effort they do especialy when the cause is on our own doorsteps.

Nobody's knocking anyone here - we're just saying that there is a danger of pay for play becoming a debate in the GAA, and we want to head that off as soon as possible.

The root of the problem as I see it starts at club level, where many clubs, mainly those with very large memberships, are paying ousiders to run their senior teams. This is reflected at county level where most managers are receiving generous "expenses", some even taking extended leave from their 9 to 5. Why can't clubs find 1 smartass/no-all to run the team in house instead of spending the lotto funds on a mercenary.
Club teams are becoming mini county teams in terms of training schedules, diet, bonding sessions etc. and the era of football/hurling for all members within the club scene is disappearing fast. If you aren't single, under 28, over 5 10", can run non-stop for 60 mins and don't have any sort of life outside football or hurling, then you are not wanted on your club pitch.

This is because winning at all costs is everything! Every club has a few "he would have beens" for this very reason because it's all got too serious and every "grassroots" member who voted in, or sat on, (or refused to complain about their own) committees who pay managers, have no room to have a go at the GPA. Understandably, they are professional in all but pocket and want a slice of what they see people getting in junior clubs nevermind the sauasge roll eaters in Croker.

You'll notice one of the core points of my piece was to do everything possible to out managers taking money and to suspend them for as long as possible. It's a plague on the association for a variety of reasons and it has to stop, at club level as much as at county level. I'm not sure what your "sausage roll eaters" comment is about though - who are we talking about here, and why sausage rolls? 

The anti GPA lobby should sort out their own glass houses first.

That's what the whole article was about - doing just that. Once no manager is getting paid, once players are being asked to train an amount of time commensurate with serious but amateur athletes and once there is a real and meaningful club season and off season then we can get rid of the spectre of professional GAA players once and for all.

[Dell Boy]

Wasn't having a go at anyone in particular - well maybe Brolly, just airing my views on the rapidly changing face of both club & county.

I agree that sanctions and regulation on training & club v county is needed, but I think we're too far gone to get any meaningful change. Take a county like Armagh for example, where Joe Kernan has single-handedly taken control of both club  & county operations over the last 5 years with his sanctions on players attending club fixtures, social lives etc. The result is a club scene which is deteriorating rapidly (only 12 clubs now in SFC), Athletic grounds in ruins, (Crossmaglen however, have a new stand paid for by the (old) Supporters Club Money, and get most big games including county finals) Players like Kevin Mc ilvanna & Paul Mc Cormack have missed the best years of their careers warming the county bench as their clubs have dropped leagues and C'ship grades at the same time. All clubs in the county regardless of financial status had to fork out for training funds until this year. What a price for amateur clubs to pay.

My point is that we've all been caught up in the outstanding success of the inter-county c'ships over the past few years and I think it's too late to rectify the damage already done.

[theskull1]

If the GPA were really interested in player welfare then they would be lobbying hard for a reduced season - but of course they are not because it goes against their long term aim, which I believe is to create a top tier of semi professional athletes.

As much as I'm anti GPA, on balance I have to say that Croke Park aren't making any noises about doing this either as it would have an negative impact on income. I think this is the only reason why GPA are getting so close to being recognised. The both appear to want the same thing in this regard albeit for very different reasons.

Enjoyed your contribition Lone Shark

[Croí na hÉireann]

They already do that in Longford - the system in Offaly seems crazy to me. But then Longford are usually out of the Championship by the end of June never mind July

Yous could be out of it in May this year if yous finish in the bottom 4... 

[believebelive]

If the GPA were really interested in player welfare then they would be lobbying hard for a reduced season - but of course they are not because it goes against their long term aim, which I believe is to create a top tier of semi professional athletes.

As much as I'm anti GPA, on balance I have to say that Croke Park aren't making any noises about doing this either as it would have an negative impact on income. I think this is the only reason why GPA are getting so close to being recognised. The both appear to want the same thing in this regard albeit for very different reasons.

Enjoyed your contribition Lone Shark

Of course Croke Park are not saying anything or doing anything to really tackle the current fixture problem or the club v county debate because to do this, as you say skull, would seriously impact income. At the minute we have a 'players union' that simply wasnt recognition and pay for play/compensation for elite players and Croke Park who want ot make as much money as is possible. Neither in my opinion have either the welfare of the current county player at heart or what is best for the club player at heart. Money runs the GAA already lads and the more I think about it the more I think there is nothing we can do about it.

[theskull1]

If the GPA were really interested in player welfare then they would be lobbying hard for a reduced season - but of course they are not because it goes against their long term aim, which I believe is to create a top tier of semi professional athletes.

As much as I'm anti GPA, on balance I have to say that Croke Park aren't making any noises about doing this either as it would have an negative impact on income. I think this is the only reason why GPA are getting so close to being recognised. The both appear to want the same thing in this regard albeit for very different reasons.

Enjoyed your contribition Lone Shark

Of course Croke Park are not saying anything or doing anything to really tackle the current fixture problem or the club v county debate because to do this, as you say skull, would seriously impact income. At the minute we have a 'players union' that simply wasnt recognition and pay for play/compensation for elite players and Croke Park who want ot make as much money as is possible. Neither in my opinion have either the welfare of the current county player at heart or what is best for the club player at heart. Money runs the GAA already lads and the more I think about it the more I think there is nothing we can do about it.

So the GPA would have Croke Park by the short and curlies then do they not?

Have they put an ultimatum to Croke Park along the lines of...
"start a process that initially provides us with official recognition wherby we can then work towards acheiving our objectives or else we will demand a reduction of the intercounty season due to players welfare concerns.."

[Bord na Mona man]

Unfortunately I don't think the excessive payment of managers can be stamped out.
Making a huge effort to stop it will only serve to highlight it and further the reason for grievances amongst players.

How you target it will be difficult. If you target managers, then in theory you'd have to target team doctors and physios who also get paid for every training session they attend. There a lot of dietitians, psychologists and other back room staff being brought in these days. Are they getting "mileage", or are they are getting a straight up fee for their services? The more this occurs, the more dubious the GAA's amateur status becomes btw.

If you try and invent rules specifically to stop team managers receiving revenue, you're on a slippery slope. A whole raft of rules will need to be written to say that bainisteoir can't get paid, but an dochtuir can. Where do you even start laying down the rules? You'd have to come up with a big price list of what a manager can claim.
Maximum mileage, maximum overnight rate, maximum claim for unsocial hours worked etc. Very quickly it becomes unworkable and the scope for dodges will still be huge.

Given that county managers are expected to attend all club games of significance, I wouldn't expect even the most genuine GAA person to do it for free.

[fearglasmor]

Stable door, horse and bolted are words that come to mind. Amateur sports are primarily for those with a fundamental love of those games. The GAA has gone way beyond that at this stage. It is a commodity, a fashion accessory, a media ticket, a career path. At the highest level the business of the GAA is run on a professional basis. Croke Park is a "professionally run" business unit. County boards are run by paid administrators. Money corrupts amateurism. It is very difficult to equate the professionaism in all aspects of inte county GAA with the requirement for amateurism in one specific area. I think it is far more likely that the one outsanding amateur element, the players, will join the rest of the professional elements, than to expect to be able to turn back the clock on those areas that have become professional.

I'm not saying this is desirable but I think it is almost inevitable. And those that occupy the upper echelons of the GAA will ultimately not stop this simply because they are already there in a professional basis.

[bigpaul]

fearglasmor, I don't see this happening in the near future, I don't see it as inevitable in any time frame!
I must apologise for my absence during the week, I have been out of the country (GB, Irish Republic, European Union or further afield? Depends on you're politics I suppose!).
Lone Shark, I asked the question in a previous thread, if the GAA, or any arm of it, were to be discriminated against in taxation or any other Government related matter, would this Board not have been 'red hot' as regards the injustice? Why are we prepared to let almost every other sporting body in Ireland benefit from tax exemptions while the GAA remains in 'limbo' ?
As regards limiting the amount of training and preparation that teams do, you are regressing fifty years! Do I have to emphasise the  obvious? It can't be done!!!!
During some of the previous posts it was stated that the GPA only represented 1% of players. I don't know what the figure is, but the GPA never said they represented anyone else apart from County Players!
Dell Boy, the Athletic Grounds were in ruins long before Joe Kernan took charge of the County Team! When was the last County match played there? The 'old Supporter's Club' couldn't have built a 'bandstand'! Their objective was to support the team and provide transport to away matches! They also presented Man of the Match' awards!
As far as the Club v County issue is concerned, this seems to be the policy that potential GAA adminstrators champion when running for office. The irony is, none of these administrators have made any serious attempt to address this issue when involved at county level!

[fearglasmor]

Dublin v Antrim, fixed for a wednesday night. If I am a Dublin hurler the GAA expects me to sacrifice a normal workday in order to fulfil their fixture.
How can pay for play be very far away and how can those who run the GAA be opposed to it when they make fixtures like this.

If players choose to give up their own time in pursuit of GAA thats their choice and thats what amateurism is about.
Fixing midweek games like this is an indication of where we are heading.

If in this case the GPA came out and demanded monetary compensation for the players, particularly the Dublin ones to fulfil this fixture, how would you argue against it.

[full back]

You simply couldnt argue against having to give players money for taking time off work because the GAA have organised a game on a Wednesday night that is over 2 hrs drive in the coach.
Does anyone close to county teams know what happens in this situation or is it brown envelope stuff?

[Bord na Mona man]

You simply couldnt argue against having to give players money for taking time off work because the GAA have organised a game on a Wednesday night that is over 2 hrs drive in the coach.

Do you pay the player who earns €150k a year the same amount as you pay the player who doing an apprenticeship, if they both have to miss work because of a game?
The theory behind such aspirations like "no player should be out of pocket" sound great, but tease it out a bit more and it would be a minefield of problems.

[fearglasmor]

You simply couldnt argue against having to give players money for taking time off work because the GAA have organised a game on a Wednesday night that is over 2 hrs drive in the coach.

Do you pay the player who earns €150k a year the same amount as you pay the player who doing an apprenticeship, if they both have to miss work because of a game?
The theory behind such aspirations like "no player should be out of pocket" sound great, but tease it out a bit more and it would be a minefield of problems.

I'd agree with you Bord na Mona Man, but then the GAA should not be fixing games that require players to sacrifice what would be considered a normal work day. They can't have it both ways.