Bertie Ahern - retires

[magpie seanie]

Interesting reading here for me from Indiana and Lar. I must have drank pints in yer vicinity at some point. Lived around that area quite a bit and especially when I lived in Calderwood Road I'd see Bertie flanked by his mafia in the Goose or Beaumont House all the time.

I despise the man completely now. I think he should be in jail for a long time. He is cheap and nasty and despite preaching openly to the contrary he was lining his pockets. More crucially he sold this country down the swanny on a pyramid scheme designed to get him and his friends seriously rich. We (and our children and thei children) now pick up the tab for this.

Unfortunately I cannot run down his only big achievement - the peace process. I doubt whether it would have come to its successful conclusion without him. He is/was a genius in  negotiation/mediation. That's not always a skill he used for good but in ths instance he did.

Saw his car outside Glasnevin cemetary on Christmas morning and was awful tempted to pelt him with snowballs when he came out!

[mylestheslasher]

se afaik most of the inner circle were part of the fabricated dig-out stories etc.  For all that, the few quid here and there was the least of his wrongdoings, I don't believe he profited to the extent that the people he helped out did, i'm talking about the developers and other who had tax laws amended in their favour.
He had some qualities, but a genius he was not and I have no idea why anyone would or could describe him as such.

Not from me, I remember being accused of being blinded by my disgust of the man back 3 or 4 years ago, that I had some decent points to make, but that everthing I wrote had to be looked at in that context (I think it was bellequa or someone who pointed that out to me).

I don't even blame Ahern tbh, he just gave people what they wanted, he didn't have the intellect to understand how unsustainable that was.  Other people should have been shouting stop.
That said, he was very good at what he did in terms of coming across as personable and achieving electoral success, the deal with the greens being his most impressive achievement imo. 

Re the north, I think it was going to happen regardless of him, there was no appetite for a continuation on any side and the wheels were long in motion before he was in power.

Probably know most of them. Certainly all who were associated with him up to the '97 election.
I lived off Hollybank Road in Glasnevin for several years and frequented both Kennedy's and Fagan's so I had ample opportunity to meet and mingle with Bertie and his buddies.
There were a number I didn't get on very well with and I guess the feeling was mutual. I get on very well with 4 or 5 of those closely associated with Ahern and when circumstances allow, I could meet one or other of them and stop for a chat or sit on an adjacent bar stool for a couple of pints From what those contacts tell me and from what I already knew, I'm certain that no single person knew the full extent of Bertie's off-the-ball activities. And no one ever will.
Nowadays, I don't go out of my way to seek out any of them but such meetings do happen on occasion and the subject of Bertie's latest misdemeanours may crop up in a general way but it seldom dominates the chat.

Was he a genius? Of course he was and still probably is!
You need look no further than Charlie Haughey's assessment of his abilities to find proof of this. "He's the man. He's the best, the most skilful, the most devious, and the most cunning of them all."

Remember the time he went down to Roscommon to attend some function or other and found a crowd of angry farmers out in force, waving placards and protesting at some cutbacks in their income? I forget the specific details but I don't forget the pictures of Bertie in amongst them that were carried by the national media the following day.
Adults who had gone onto the streets to protest at his government's actions were shaking his hand and seeking his autograph; they damn near chaired him around the local pitch for a lap of honour or two. I can't think of any other public figure that has the cojones to pull off a stroke like that. Can you?

I'm not saying that I admire Bertie Ahern but I'd use a long spoon if I ever sit down to supper with him. There's a lot more to the man than his pretty face.
Now, I most certainly will not vote for him if he stands in the Presidential Election or any other electoral contest either.   
But it would be churlish to deny him the credit due for his part in the Peace Process negotiations. IMO, it's pointless speculating that someone else might have had the same success. The fact is that Ahern won the trust of Big Ian and the Shinners and brought them together-something that no one else had been able to do after 40 years of trying.
For me, his undoubted positive achievements only serve to highlight his financial peccadilloes. I hope the Mahon Tribunal will finish its investigations, sooner rather than later, and come up with a credible verdict. Let justice be done and seen to be done is all I can say.

Well Lar, it seems to me that is exactly what you are saying. That age old Irish thing of admiration for the sneaky f**ker that gets away with it.

[INDIANA]

se afaik most of the inner circle were part of the fabricated dig-out stories etc.  For all that, the few quid here and there was the least of his wrongdoings, I don't believe he profited to the extent that the people he helped out did, i'm talking about the developers and other who had tax laws amended in their favour.
He had some qualities, but a genius he was not and I have no idea why anyone would or could describe him as such.

Not from me, I remember being accused of being blinded by my disgust of the man back 3 or 4 years ago, that I had some decent points to make, but that everthing I wrote had to be looked at in that context (I think it was bellequa or someone who pointed that out to me).

I don't even blame Ahern tbh, he just gave people what they wanted, he didn't have the intellect to understand how unsustainable that was.  Other people should have been shouting stop.
That said, he was very good at what he did in terms of coming across as personable and achieving electoral success, the deal with the greens being his most impressive achievement imo. 

Re the north, I think it was going to happen regardless of him, there was no appetite for a continuation on any side and the wheels were long in motion before he was in power.

Probably know most of them. Certainly all who were associated with him up to the '97 election.
I lived off Hollybank Road in Glasnevin for several years and frequented both Kennedy's and Fagan's so I had ample opportunity to meet and mingle with Bertie and his buddies.
There were a number I didn't get on very well with and I guess the feeling was mutual. I get on very well with 4 or 5 of those closely associated with Ahern and when circumstances allow, I could meet one or other of them and stop for a chat or sit on an adjacent bar stool for a couple of pints From what those contacts tell me and from what I already knew, I'm certain that no single person knew the full extent of Bertie's off-the-ball activities. And no one ever will.
Nowadays, I don't go out of my way to seek out any of them but such meetings do happen on occasion and the subject of Bertie's latest misdemeanours may crop up in a general way but it seldom dominates the chat.

Was he a genius? Of course he was and still probably is!
You need look no further than Charlie Haughey's assessment of his abilities to find proof of this. "He's the man. He's the best, the most skilful, the most devious, and the most cunning of them all."

Remember the time he went down to Roscommon to attend some function or other and found a crowd of angry farmers out in force, waving placards and protesting at some cutbacks in their income? I forget the specific details but I don't forget the pictures of Bertie in amongst them that were carried by the national media the following day.
Adults who had gone onto the streets to protest at his government's actions were shaking his hand and seeking his autograph; they damn near chaired him around the local pitch for a lap of honour or two. I can't think of any other public figure that has the cojones to pull off a stroke like that. Can you?

I'm not saying that I admire Bertie Ahern but I'd use a long spoon if I ever sit down to supper with him. There's a lot more to the man than his pretty face.
Now, I most certainly will not vote for him if he stands in the Presidential Election or any other electoral contest either.   
But it would be churlish to deny him the credit due for his part in the Peace Process negotiations. IMO, it's pointless speculating that someone else might have had the same success. The fact is that Ahern won the trust of Big Ian and the Shinners and brought them together-something that no one else had been able to do after 40 years of trying.
For me, his undoubted positive achievements only serve to highlight his financial peccadilloes. I hope the Mahon Tribunal will finish its investigations, sooner rather than later, and come up with a credible verdict. Let justice be done and seen to be done is all I can say.

Well Lar, it seems to me that is exactly what you are saying. That age old Irish thing of admiration for the sneaky f**ker that gets away with it.

Precisely Miles and an example of how FF stayed in power so long. Its quite simply unreal. No-one can take away his role in the Peace Process. However that does not hide the corruption, the deceit and the downright skullduggery he took part in.

[under the bar]

Ahern would have got what he deserved in Ireland c.1922

[Lar Naparka]

Well Lar, it seems to me that is exactly what you are saying. That age old Irish thing of admiration for the sneaky f**ker that gets away with it.

Jaysus, myles, maybe I write too slow or you read too fast but that's not quite what I was on about.
If you re-read the full sentence in question you will see what I mean. I would never take Bertie Ahern for a fool and I wouldn't fancy my chances of coming out on top if I ever did tangle with him. I also said I would never vote for him again- or words to that effect.
I did write:
"For me, his undoubted positive achievements only serve to highlight his financial peccadilloes."
Like Indy puts it in the post above:
"No-one can take away his role in the Peace Process. However that does not hide the corruption, the deceit and the downright skulduggery he took part in."

Exactly; but I'd go further and say that his undoubted brilliance makes what he got up to even worse than it seems. Unless the Tribunal gets to issue its verdict, I don't think we will ever find out the full truth and it's quite possible that we never will.

[Bogball XV]

Himself and Fitzpatrick should be put in stocks in O Connell Street.  But then again Bogball and his nanny state mates would probably take the hit for him. Thats Ireland for you .

As one of Ahern's biggest critics on this board for the past 4/5 years, I'm baffled.

I don't start many threads, but here's one I did.

http://gaaboard.com/board/index.php?topic=3008.0

[mylestheslasher]

Himself and Fitzpatrick should be put in stocks in O Connell Street.  But then again Bogball and his nanny state mates would probably take the hit for him. Thats Ireland for you .

As one of Ahern's biggest critics on this board for the past 4/5 years, I'm baffled.

I don't start many threads, but here's one I did.

http://gaaboard.com/board/index.php?topic=3008.0

I meant to say in my last post that Indiana must have picked you up wrong cos I couldn't see why he was critical of you.

Lar, you are pretty much saying, it seems to me, that bertie is a political genius who used his skills for bad ends. I have a problem using the term genius when referring to a corrupt conman. It's akin to saying Hitler was a genius to get all those Germans to do what he wanted.

[stephenite]

No Myles-it's not like Hitler at all. not even in the same ballpark

[mylestheslasher]

No Myles-it's not like Hitler at all. not even in the same ballpark

It's a simile, look it up in the dictionary.

[Zapatista]

Credit for the Peace Process rests with the people of Ireland. It does not lie with Bertie Ahern. If you are to name individuals for credit in the peace process you can name John Hume, Gerry Adams and David Trimble. After that there is a big drop in contributers.

[Lar Naparka]

Lar, you are pretty much saying, it seems to me, that bertie is a political genius who used his skills for bad ends. I have a problem using the term genius when referring to a corrupt conman. It's akin to saying Hitler was a genius to get all those Germans to do what he wanted.

Ok, then maybe we can agree to differ on our interpretation of the concept of "genius."
You can have geniuses of the malign variety as well as the benign. Sometimes you come across one with a foot in both camps. Evil geniuses can and definitely do exist and we have our inimitable Evil Genius to prove it and I'm not being totally facetious here. But geniuses can be fallible.
Bertie came from a solid Dublin working class background and started his working career as a clerk in the Mater accounts department. Getting elected to the Dail in the '77 landslide was no big deal but what happened from there on certainly was.
Now, all shades of Irish people were happy to bask in his reflected glory as he strode the world stage and most were quite happy to grab their share of the increased prosperity that the Celtic Tiger brought along. 

Me? As the noughties wore on I felt the hoor was losing the run of himself and was letting the adulation get to his head. He made some serious political gaffes and we will be forced to pay the price for his errors for ages to come. Still a genius, btw, but definitely a flawed one at this stage.
His worst sin was to shaft McCreevy and pack him off to Europe when the latter began to get concerned that the economy was starting to spin out of control. He made a double whammy when he replaced Charlie Mac with the Cowan. Some of his close associates have said that he placed loyalty in front of ability when choosing his cabinet and he sure hit the jackpot with the Biffo.
He wanted the boom to keep on getting boomier and started trading election promises with the Opposition.  It's one thing to promise boots for the footless and glasses for the blind when you are outside trying to get in but it are quite another matter if you promise to match those offers when you are in power.
Eddie Hobbs and David McWilliams were starting to sound the alarm but Bertie/Biffo chose to ignore the danger signs and, unfortunately, they got it badly wrong.
Maybe Bertie was starting to get increasingly rattled as the Tribunal hummed away in the background and was losing his concentration but, whatever the reason, this genius was becoming fallible. He goofed badly but that shouldn't detract from his past achievements.
As for the Tribunal's conclusions, when they come, I don't expect anything too dramatic. That is not to say I feel Bertie did nothing wrong. But there's one hell of a difference between what a private individual may feel and a court of law can prove.
In his head to head with des O'Neill, I felt Bertie was leading comfortably on points until Grainne Carruth took the stand. O'Neill couldn't prove that any of the donors had received political favours so he couldn't pin a charge of political corruption on his adversary. Bertie might get a slap on the hand but no boot up the rock and roll. It's usually overlooked but the man had a powerful legal defence team to guide him but apart from a few uncomfortable sessions with the Revenue Commisioners and probably some of his associates getting a bit of hassle from the gardai was about the worst to be anticipated.
Poor Grainne's stint on the witness may have altered the dynamics a lot but only the verdict can confirm this.
Will this be justice at work?
Probably not but we're talking Law here and not Justice!

[mylestheslasher]

Lar, you are pretty much saying, it seems to me, that bertie is a political genius who used his skills for bad ends. I have a problem using the term genius when referring to a corrupt conman. It's akin to saying Hitler was a genius to get all those Germans to do what he wanted.

Ok, then maybe we can agree to differ on our interpretation of the concept of "genius."
You can have geniuses of the malign variety as well as the benign. Sometimes you come across one with a foot in both camps. Evil geniuses can and definitely do exist and we have our inimitable Evil Genius to prove it and I'm not being totally facetious here. But geniuses can be fallible.
Bertie came from a solid Dublin working class background and started his working career as a clerk in the Mater accounts department. Getting elected to the Dail in the '77 landslide was no big deal but what happened from there on certainly was.
Now, all shades of Irish people were happy to bask in his reflected glory as he strode the world stage and most were quite happy to grab their share of the increased prosperity that the Celtic Tiger brought along. 

Me? As the noughties wore on I felt the hoor was losing the run of himself and was letting the adulation get to his head. He made some serious political gaffes and we will be forced to pay the price for his errors for ages to come. Still a genius, btw, but definitely a flawed one at this stage.
His worst sin was to shaft McCreevy and pack him off to Europe when the latter began to get concerned that the economy was starting to spin out of control. He made a double whammy when he replaced Charlie Mac with the Cowan. Some of his close associates have said that he placed loyalty in front of ability when choosing his cabinet and he sure hit the jackpot with the Biffo.
He wanted the boom to keep on getting boomier and started trading election promises with the Opposition.  It's one thing to promise boots for the footless and glasses for the blind when you are outside trying to get in but it are quite another matter if you promise to match those offers when you are in power.
Eddie Hobbs and David McWilliams were starting to sound the alarm but Bertie/Biffo chose to ignore the danger signs and, unfortunately, they got it badly wrong.
Maybe Bertie was starting to get increasingly rattled as the Tribunal hummed away in the background and was losing his concentration but, whatever the reason, this genius was becoming fallible. He goofed badly but that shouldn't detract from his past achievements.
As for the Tribunal's conclusions, when they come, I don't expect anything too dramatic. That is not to say I feel Bertie did nothing wrong. But there's one hell of a difference between what a private individual may feel and a court of law can prove.
In his head to head with des O'Neill, I felt Bertie was leading comfortably on points until Grainne Carruth took the stand. O'Neill couldn't prove that any of the donors had received political favours so he couldn't pin a charge of political corruption on his adversary. Bertie might get a slap on the hand but no boot up the rock and roll. It's usually overlooked but the man had a powerful legal defence team to guide him but apart from a few uncomfortable sessions with the Revenue Commisioners and probably some of his associates getting a bit of hassle from the gardai was about the worst to be anticipated.
Poor Grainne's stint on the witness may have altered the dynamics a lot but only the verdict can confirm this.
Will this be justice at work?
Probably not but we're talking Law here and not Justice!

I think we can do that. Your one of the more measured posters on here Lar so we'll not fall out over it.

I see Bertie, like a scorpion, got his last dying sting out to Cowan and there are not too many of the FF loyals coming to his aid.

[lawnseed]

anyone who can pull a stunt like ahern did and not end up in jail certainly is worth watching. he'll never spend a night in a cell

[Bogball XV]

anyone who can pull a stunt like ahern did and not end up in jail certainly is worth watching. he'll never spend a night in a cell

I wouldn't be so sure, and if he does go down it'll be for tax evasion.

[SLIGONIAN]

I ignored this thread  because of the anger this man rages in me. The only positive for me is my ablity to read a persons character is intact as i had this fcker pinged yrs ago. Some great contributions on here from indiana,bogball and lar.

I have 1 question when are we likely to get a verdict in mahon tribunal?

And is there anyway the people of this Island can force poltical reform and how politics is run? Its time for overhaul, we cannot continue like this and watch the same thing happen again...