Ulster President Aogan Farrell. "Appoint Managers from within your own club"

[Zulu]

Well that happens already in some counties doesn't it? But I wouldn't equate the two because nobody wants us to go down that route and while a team can still do well even if they are short one or two quality players they are unlikely do reach their potential if they have a guy coaching who is out of his depth. I don't think any players want their clubs to source and pay top quality players but they all want quality coaches so that their own efforts are worthwhile, and what is wrong with that?

[theskull1]

Are you or have you been an outside manager Zulu?

[Zulu]

Yeah Skull1, I'm currently an outside manager and I've been an outside manager once before. I also coached my own club for two years and I didn't get any money (not even expenses) for any of them.

[INDIANA]

Surely you understand that its a nonsense to blame coaches for what clubs pay them?

I will manage your club.  I will give you my expertise and my every waking thought. I can't guarantee you success but you know my record and have spoken to people who have played under me. All I can guarantee you is my best.

For me to sacrafice three evenings a week away from the kids and half my working days contacting physios, players and arranging training / games, I will need X a week. If that's too much I understand but to justfy pouring my time and energy into a club other than my own I will have to take the wife and kids away for a good holiday at the end of the year. Again, I understand its not hunble money for any club but it won't be worth it for me otherwise and no hard feelings if you want to go another direction.

You're argumment is that this coach should be made to do the job for half price? Less?

No I dont. I think its a fallacy to blame clubs for wanting success. The bottom line is I would only appoint an outside coach if I was sure we didnt have the expertise and I was banking on a sure thing. I could name several of these well known gurus who have sold themselves to clubs for extortionate prices and then subsequently these clubs have found out they are training 3 other teams on the side. in other words coining it. they dont give a shite.

For a club who has had exhausted its internal options and has had a period of no success then its time to get outside help. However for an established club I'd want to be sold on the individual first and secondly that my club is their sole priority. If I even hear of them training another club in the meantime they are out the door.

[Uladh]

Ffs. We're all in agreement then. Is it beyond you to just say that rather than trying to pretend you have some much more high brow argument?

I think ever postwe has said the same thing now in a variety of ways

[theskull1]

Think that post needs another edit uladh. Can't understand it at all

[DuffleKing]

Cooney urges counties to support Duffy document
Christy Cooney
30 November 2010

Christy Cooney has called on county boards to give their full backing to GAA director-general Paraic Duffy's soon-to-be-released discussion document on illegal payments to managers.

Cooney described it yesterday as one of the major issues hanging over the Association and called on county officials to fully support Croke Park bosses in their attempt to end the long-running practice.

"The last discussion we had with county chairmen there was a lot of honesty and frankness in the room stating exactly where we are. At this stage everybody requires and needs a pathway forward on this," he said from Kuala Lumpur.

"At the end of the day, whatever we bring in, people have to buy into it and not alone buy into it but deliver on it as well. There is no point in paying lip service to something and looking under the table as to where exactly the funding is going and not going. We all have to be honest about it."

The GAA president also insisted that the two-month training is here to stay and that there will be no changes to the hurling and football championship structures for the foreseeable future, although there may be some tweaking to the playing calendar for 2011.

Odd to call for everyone to support something that noone has seen

[Hardy]

And how do you give backing to a discussion document?

[Leo]

Even a seriously focussed and successsful club like Burren seems to need to appoint outsiders like McManus, Barton (stop laughing) and Dawson - why?
Usually in my view it is not for the expertise they bring that the likes of Paddy O'Rourke or one of the McGovern's doesn't have - it is to bridge the local rivalries or internal divisions that exist in most (rural) clubs, even the most successful, no matter how united they appear on the outside.
It would be nice to rise above that parochialism - and put the tooth fairy at full back.

[brokencrossbar1]

I think much of it depends on the ambitions of the club and the realistic talent available.  The reality is that only 1 team a year can win a championship and 1 team can win the league.  Generally the team that wins one is in for a serious shout for the other.  Most counties have a core of 3-4 teams who are realistic challengers every year.  Cross for instance never look outside the club for a manager and do not pay but a lot has to do with the talent available and the prevailing structures for development within the club.  There is a continuity that has been facilitated due to the success but this did not appear because we won an All Ireland.  There were a number of visionsaries, well really Tim Gregory, who 30 years ago or so put a massive effort into the underage structure knowing that this would pay huge rewards in the long term.  He got a number of very capable deputies, Peter McMahon, Miceal Moley, and a few others who coached other teams but Tim was the catalyst for everything.  Once the structures were put in place there was never going to be the need to put in place and "outside" man, the club had been burned back in the mid 80's by the one and only "outside" manager. 

Now in many respects clubs are going at it the wrong way round.  Focus on getting the underage structures.  I read a line about the difference between the clubs in the PL and the clubs in Spain.  In England the best coaches are paid big money to coach the senior teams, in SPain the best coaches have worked with the underage teams for the last 20 years and that is why you have the like of Barcelona producing a fantastic team with 8-9 "home grown" players and the international team is the best team in the world whereas English football in my mind is at an all time low in terms of ability and structures.  Bringing that to the GAA, tehre are not that many coaches of sufficeint quality to coach senior teams and it is understandable why clubs are poaying managers.  What I would say though is that there needs to be a greater development of coaches within clubs and I don't just mean in terms of doing the GAA based "drills" courses.  There needs to be proper coachiong in terms of the requirements for physical fitness and the need to prepare bodies properly.  The game of football in particular is an intensely physical game and as the younger players are getting bigger and more muscle bound the hits are getting bigger therefore coaches need to be more acutely aware of the requiremnts of recovery and rest as do the players.  I know in my own case I have arthritis devloping in my right shoulder and right elbow despite the fact that I never really suffered a serious injury during my career.  I am only 34 and sometimes find it hard to get out of bed.  The GAA perhaps could invest in this area, acknowledge that managers are getting paid but insist that they compltete all the badges that are available before theyt can take on a coaching role.  Personally it would be a great rervenue generator for the Association and also for the Government as the managers would have to declare their earnings and pay tax on them.

[maxpower]

Everything you say BCB1 is correct and that is why i think all clubs should abandon this notion of outside managers,

Club success should be achieved by a club, if you don't have the players you can't recruit, you have to go back to basics and develop underage and look to the long term until your club is in a position to be competitive.

the same should apply to managers, make the best of the resources available to your clubs, put money into developing coaching within the club and the long terms gains will be much better than the flash in the pan success outside managers crave.

Playing success should be what every player and club strives for but not at all costs, and it is the clubs who pay not the managers who get paid are to blame for the amount of this that goes on

[rrhf]

Of course Aogan is right, but why start with clubs, when you have counties with bigger resources using external managers.  The whole GAA public needs to take a step back to be fair.  Professionalism interms of playing for and managing teams is a curse which could cripple the whole thing in a few years. Back to basics!!   

[brokencrossbar1]

Everything you say BCB1 is correct and that is why i think all clubs should abandon this notion of outside managers,

Club success should be achieved by a club, if you don't have the players you can't recruit, you have to go back to basics and develop underage and look to the long term until your club is in a position to be competitive.

the same should apply to managers, make the best of the resources available to your clubs, put money into developing coaching within the club and the long terms gains will be much better than the flash in the pan success outside managers crave.

Playing success should be what every player and club strives for but not at all costs, and it is the clubs who pay not the managers who get paid are to blame for the amount of this that goes on

I do actually agree that clubs pay managers though if the structures are not right but the managers should not be just an ex county player etc.  There should be an understanding that the whole structures of the club need to be addressed and until the right internal man is available then the right external candidate should take the job on, but they must be fully aware of the overall remit of the role is to develop the unit as a whole and not just win a championship. 

[Zulu]

The reality is that many clubs don't, and never will, have top quality coaches. I agree 100% with BC1 but this isn't professional sport and a lot of underage coaches will always be parents of the kids and many will want to progress with their kids as they get older. I tried to establish a coaching structure in my club but it didn't get off the ground for many reasons. I'm not sure some of the northern posters quite grasp how disorganised and dysfunctional a lot of southern clubs are. I know BC1 is now involved with Cork so he probably does but some clubs in the 26 counties will always need outside managers if they are to get quality appointments.

Another aspect of this is that many coaches look upon the role the same way players look at playing. I would be a far more ambitious coach than my club are (unfortunately) and to improve as a coach I want to work with higher level teams. Why should lads who want to coach and are good at coaching have to remain with their own club? And why shouldn't they be paid for bring expertise to clubs in the same way the physio does?

[brokencrossbar1]

I'm out of cork now zulu but I do agree there is a laissez faire attitude among certain areas. The attitude is a bit like "yerra f**k it we've won x amount doing it this way why change". The game is changing and no matter what people believe it will continue to evolve. Clubs in the north are more acutely aware of the need for proper structures and great credit must go to the ulster council for that. Leinster clubs and specifically dublin clubs are catching up fast, munster still relying on a system where they are lucky to have strong tradition and talent, I don't know much about connacht but when I saw tommy joyce playing mf in the game ag st brigids I had a raised eyebrow! The fact though remains that there are good and bad managers gettinhg paid on the merry go round and I think it wd be better to address their abilities than complain about whether they are paid or not.