Get ready to wave them flegs - Lily Windsor's coming

[mylestheslasher]

I'm somewhere between both sides on this debate. I don't like the british royals, their history in this and any other country and I agree that this "lets show the brits how mature we are" attitude by many politicians and media is sickening to me. Most of these people of course haven't got a clue what they are talking about but its the same old argument that was beaten into GAA people when the debate about allowing soccer/rugby in croke park was going on - your just backward so your opinion doesn't count.

The other side of it is that the British Queen is a head of state of a neighbouring friendly nation that we do a lot of trade with. Her appearing here doesn't sit well with me but I think the possibility of increasing trade links in these tough times means I can stomach her being here by simply ignoring it. I'm sure there will be plenty of west brit tossers out waving union jacks to make up for my absence.

[Rossfan]

I'm somewhere between both sides on this debate. I don't like the british royals, their history in this and any other country and I agree that this "lets show the brits how mature we are" attitude by many politicians and media is sickening to me. Most of these people of course haven't got a clue what they are talking about but its the same old argument that was beaten into GAA people when the debate about allowing soccer/rugby in croke park was going on - your just backward so your opinion doesn't count.

The other side of it is that the British Queen is a head of state of a neighbouring friendly nation that we do a lot of trade with. Her appearing here doesn't sit well with me but I think the possibility of increasing trade links in these tough times means I can stomach her being here by simply ignoring it. I'm sure there will be plenty of west brit t**sers out waving union jacks to make up for my absence.

+ 1.
Nally, Sinn Féin are reported as saying they won't be protesting as it would be unfair to two elderly people. They will organise other events of a "cultural nature " instead.
Sinn Féin are part of the northern Establishment and are comfortable with running the 6 Cos under British overlordship and the nominal overlordship of oul Mrs windsor.
Time for Nally to catch up with his favourite political party methinks 

[Nally Stand]

I'm somewhere between both sides on this debate. I don't like the british royals, their history in this and any other country and I agree that this "lets show the brits how mature we are" attitude by many politicians and media is sickening to me. Most of these people of course haven't got a clue what they are talking about but its the same old argument that was beaten into GAA people when the debate about allowing soccer/rugby in croke park was going on - your just backward so your opinion doesn't count.

The other side of it is that the British Queen is a head of state of a neighbouring friendly nation that we do a lot of trade with. Her appearing here doesn't sit well with me but I think the possibility of increasing trade links in these tough times means I can stomach her being here by simply ignoring it. I'm sure there will be plenty of west brit t**sers out waving union jacks to make up for my absence.

+ 1.
Nally, Sinn Féin are reported as saying they won't be protesting as it would be unfair to two elderly people. They will organise other events of a "cultural nature " instead.
Sinn Féin are part of the northern Establishment and are comfortable with running the 6 Cos under British overlordship and the nominal overlordship of oul Mrs windsor.
Time for Nally to catch up with his favourite political party methinks 

They also are part of the southern establishment and have a strategy for developing All-Ireland co-operation. But anyway.....what's your point?

[Nally Stand]

The topic is a visit of the token head of state of our neighbour. This happens between former adversaries all over the world. It happens on the next island to us.

You have hijacked the thread with talk of her token role in the British Army. This probably means game, set and match in certain circles. If anyone counters with anything else you accuse them of going off thread or of abuse.

Different Irish people have different views. Non-Sinn Fein Irish are as Irish as Sinn Fein. Time to accept that.

No shit, anyone born here is as Irish as anyone else. Remind me where I stated otherwise if you get the chance. And I have not hijacked anything. I am simply pointing out a reason why so many will be insulted by this visit and contered claims that anyone who feels that way are "dinosaurs" or "can't move on". Of course old adversaries have visits between heads of state. However, that does not mean we have to rush into it before the people who would be most hurt by such a visit, are ready to see it. Do we have to do it because others did, and f**k the people who will be hurting? Or do we show GENUINE maturity and undertake such a visit when it will not be so offensive to so many? So many people are tripping over each other in their attempts to seem "mature" and to look like they are so "capable of moving on" that they have lost sight of how this visit will be deeply hurtful to the people who have suffered more many of the "mature" brigade will ever begin (or even try) to understand.

So it is ok if she visits but just not yet?

Who decides how long?

Who decides right now? Is it too much to ask that consideration be given to people who feel is it premature? Why MUST it happen now when it is still clearly so divisive?

Go on, answer that yourself.

How about you answer my post? (And not just the piece you put in bold)

[Aoise]

I have been thinking about this alot over the last couple of days and whilst my initial reaction was one of revulsion and dismay, I have had to analyse these feelings and put them into some sort of perspective.  Whilst the sovereign head of the British state gives me no positive feelings due to the fact that she remains the head of an army that played a major role in the oppression of my community, without much acceptance of that part, I have had to step back and look at this logically.

1 - the results of a census is due to be published in the near future.  It is highly suspicious that now, NISRA have suddenly removed the legal requirement to state religious background but beyond that I am expecting the gap between Protestant and Catholic in the North to close further.  It is stated by law in the GFA that when requisite numbers are reached, a referendum must be called to determine whether or not a United Ireland is possible.  I'm not saying that this time there will be sufficient numbers to enable this but once a referendum on the constitutional question is called, by law, it MUST be repeated every 7 years - something Unionists do not want to focus on - this fact will not have escaped the establishment in Britain!

2 - Looking at history, usually whenever a state visit of a British Monarch has occured in Ireland, some major constitutional change is occurring.  Perhaps, the planned visit by the Queen of England is to increase relations so that the inevitable can happen peacefully in the future.  I would not forsee an Ireland where Unionist people would be afraid of being participant in because they continue to see Irish people unwilling to embrace their culture - it will not be a success if this is to occur.

3 - Time to move on and wait and see what happens.  Let her come, it is the first time that a ruling monarch will give credence to the fact that her country was in a war with the Irish people.  She will do this by simply visiting the sites that she is intending.  By visiting Croke park, it will be highlighted what happened there so many years ago by troops acting in her country's name, by visiting the memorial, she will recognise for the first time those men who died for Irish freedom against her country.  In doing so she is recognising her country's part in this conflict.

So in weighing things up, and taking my instinctive feelings into account, I think I've concluded for myself that instead of this visit being opposed it should be welcomed and recognised as the first stage of the handover that will in the future be an inevitability.  Both establishments know this, its time we stopped opposing everything British for the sake of an apology that will never suffice and start preparing for our inception into a new constitutional island and if this is the first stage then so be it!!!

[muppet]

I have been thinking about this alot over the last couple of days and whilst my initial reaction was one of revulsion and dismay, I have had to analyse these feelings and put them into some sort of perspective.  Whilst the sovereign head of the British state gives me no positive feelings due to the fact that she remains the head of an army that played a major role in the oppression of my community, without much acceptance of that part, I have had to step back and look at this logically.

1 - the results of a census is due to be published in the near future.  It is highly suspicious that now, NISRA have suddenly removed the legal requirement to state religious background but beyond that I am expecting the gap between Protestant and Catholic in the North to close further.  It is stated by law in the GFA that when requisite numbers are reached, a referendum must be called to determine whether or not a United Ireland is possible.  I'm not saying that this time there will be sufficient numbers to enable this but once a referendum on the constitutional question is called, by law, it MUST be repeated every 7 years - something Unionists do not want to focus on - this fact will not have escaped the establishment in Britain!

2 - Looking at history, usually whenever a state visit of a British Monarch has occured in Ireland, some major constitutional change is occurring.  Perhaps, the planned visit by the Queen of England is to increase relations so that the inevitable can happen peacefully in the future.  I would not forsee an Ireland where Unionist people would be afraid of being participant in because they continue to see Irish people unwilling to embrace their culture - it will not be a success if this is to occur.

3 - Time to move on and wait and see what happens.  Let her come, it is the first time that a ruling monarch will give credence to the fact that her country was in a war with the Irish people.  She will do this by simply visiting the sites that she is intending.  By visiting Croke park, it will be highlighted what happened there so many years ago by troops acting in her country's name, by visiting the memorial, she will recognise for the first time those men who died for Irish freedom against her country.  In doing so she is recognising her country's part in this conflict.

So in weighing things up, and taking my instinctive feelings into account, I think I've concluded for myself that instead of this visit being opposed it should be welcomed and recognised as the first stage of the handover that will in the future be an inevitability.  Both establishments know this, its time we stopped opposing everything British for the sake of an apology that will never suffice and start preparing for our inception into a new constitutional island and if this is the first stage then so be it!!!

Very good post.

[mylestheslasher]

I have been thinking about this alot over the last couple of days and whilst my initial reaction was one of revulsion and dismay, I have had to analyse these feelings and put them into some sort of perspective.  Whilst the sovereign head of the British state gives me no positive feelings due to the fact that she remains the head of an army that played a major role in the oppression of my community, without much acceptance of that part, I have had to step back and look at this logically.

1 - the results of a census is due to be published in the near future.  It is highly suspicious that now, NISRA have suddenly removed the legal requirement to state religious background but beyond that I am expecting the gap between Protestant and Catholic in the North to close further.  It is stated by law in the GFA that when requisite numbers are reached, a referendum must be called to determine whether or not a United Ireland is possible.  I'm not saying that this time there will be sufficient numbers to enable this but once a referendum on the constitutional question is called, by law, it MUST be repeated every 7 years - something Unionists do not want to focus on - this fact will not have escaped the establishment in Britain!

2 - Looking at history, usually whenever a state visit of a British Monarch has occured in Ireland, some major constitutional change is occurring.  Perhaps, the planned visit by the Queen of England is to increase relations so that the inevitable can happen peacefully in the future.  I would not forsee an Ireland where Unionist people would be afraid of being participant in because they continue to see Irish people unwilling to embrace their culture - it will not be a success if this is to occur.

3 - Time to move on and wait and see what happens.  Let her come, it is the first time that a ruling monarch will give credence to the fact that her country was in a war with the Irish people.  She will do this by simply visiting the sites that she is intending.  By visiting Croke park, it will be highlighted what happened there so many years ago by troops acting in her country's name, by visiting the memorial, she will recognise for the first time those men who died for Irish freedom against her country.  In doing so she is recognising her country's part in this conflict.

So in weighing things up, and taking my instinctive feelings into account, I think I've concluded for myself that instead of this visit being opposed it should be welcomed and recognised as the first stage of the handover that will in the future be an inevitability.  Both establishments know this, its time we stopped opposing everything British for the sake of an apology that will never suffice and start preparing for our inception into a new constitutional island and if this is the first stage then so be it!!!

You make some good points there Aoise.

[Rossfan]

I'm somewhere between both sides on this debate. I don't like the british royals, their history in this and any other country and I agree that this "lets show the brits how mature we are" attitude by many politicians and media is sickening to me. Most of these people of course haven't got a clue what they are talking about but its the same old argument that was beaten into GAA people when the debate about allowing soccer/rugby in croke park was going on - your just backward so your opinion doesn't count.

The other side of it is that the British Queen is a head of state of a neighbouring friendly nation that we do a lot of trade with. Her appearing here doesn't sit well with me but I think the possibility of increasing trade links in these tough times means I can stomach her being here by simply ignoring it. I'm sure there will be plenty of west brit t**sers out waving union jacks to make up for my absence.

+ 1.
Nally, Sinn Féin are reported as saying they won't be protesting as it would be unfair to two elderly people. They will organise other events of a "cultural nature " instead.
Sinn Féin are part of the northern Establishment and are comfortable with running the 6 Cos under British overlordship and the nominal overlordship of oul Mrs windsor.
Time for Nally to catch up with his favourite political party methinks 

They also are part of the southern establishment and have a strategy for developing All-Ireland co-operation. But anyway.....what's your point?

THey are NOT part of the "southern " establishment. Very much an opposition and basically "agin" everything .
My point is you're favourite party have moved on from you so you'd betetr get chasing after them.

[Maguire01]

1 - the results of a census is due to be published in the near future.  It is highly suspicious that now, NISRA have suddenly removed the legal requirement to state religious background but beyond that I am expecting the gap between Protestant and Catholic in the North to close further.  It is stated by law in the GFA that when requisite numbers are reached, a referendum must be called to determine whether or not a United Ireland is possible.  I'm not saying that this time there will be sufficient numbers to enable this but once a referendum on the constitutional question is called, by law, it MUST be repeated every 7 years - something Unionists do not want to focus on - this fact will not have escaped the establishment in Britain!

It cannot be repeated any sonner than 7 years, but I don't believe there's any requirement for it to repeated every seven years. Fron the Agreement itself:

3. The Secretary of State shall not make an order under paragraph 1
earlier than seven years after the holding of a previous poll under this
Schedule.

As for the census question, i'm not sure what there is to be suspicious about. Surely part strength as voted for at elections is a much better indicator than religious background of the population?

Anyway, I can't see anyone calling for a referendum anytime soon.

[muppet]

Who decides right now? Is it too much to ask that consideration be given to people who feel is it premature? Why MUST it happen now when it is still clearly so divisive?

Go on, answer that yourself.

How about you answer my post? (And not just the piece you put in bold)

Who decides? The President of Ireland would have sought advise from the Government of Ireland who would have consulted with the Government of England. Once they agreed the President of Ireland would have sent an invitation which she would already have known would be accepted. This was obviously discussed between Mary and Lizzy in advance and something they both wanted.

Is it too much...? Not at all. There are reasonable people making a reasonable case for this and they should probably have been consulted. However we all know unfortunately that certain unelected groups will most likely show up to protest and possible even try to pull something major off.

Why must it happen now? Hard to know what exactly is driving it but if I had to guess I'm thinking McAleese is coming to the end of her term while Lizzy isn't getting any younger. They may have established a real relationship (odd as it may sound) and agreed that they would go where the likes of John Major and Albert Reynolds had gone (not forgetting John Hume's vital role here) and where Bertie and Blair went.

I really am indifferent to her coming but now that it has been announced I would hate to see the visit stopped by protests or threats of violence or whatever.

[Nally Stand]

I have been thinking about this alot over the last couple of days and whilst my initial reaction was one of revulsion and dismay, I have had to analyse these feelings and put them into some sort of perspective.  Whilst the sovereign head of the British state gives me no positive feelings due to the fact that she remains the head of an army that played a major role in the oppression of my community, without much acceptance of that part, I have had to step back and look at this logically.

1 - the results of a census is due to be published in the near future.  It is highly suspicious that now, NISRA have suddenly removed the legal requirement to state religious background but beyond that I am expecting the gap between Protestant and Catholic in the North to close further.  It is stated by law in the GFA that when requisite numbers are reached, a referendum must be called to determine whether or not a United Ireland is possible.  I'm not saying that this time there will be sufficient numbers to enable this but once a referendum on the constitutional question is called, by law, it MUST be repeated every 7 years - something Unionists do not want to focus on - this fact will not have escaped the establishment in Britain!

2 - Looking at history, usually whenever a state visit of a British Monarch has occured in Ireland, some major constitutional change is occurring.  Perhaps, the planned visit by the Queen of England is to increase relations so that the inevitable can happen peacefully in the future.  I would not forsee an Ireland where Unionist people would be afraid of being participant in because they continue to see Irish people unwilling to embrace their culture - it will not be a success if this is to occur.

3 - Time to move on and wait and see what happens.  Let her come, it is the first time that a ruling monarch will give credence to the fact that her country was in a war with the Irish people.  She will do this by simply visiting the sites that she is intending.  By visiting Croke park, it will be highlighted what happened there so many years ago by troops acting in her country's name, by visiting the memorial, she will recognise for the first time those men who died for Irish freedom against her country.  In doing so she is recognising her country's part in this conflict.

So in weighing things up, and taking my instinctive feelings into account, I think I've concluded for myself that instead of this visit being opposed it should be welcomed and recognised as the first stage of the handover that will in the future be an inevitability.  Both establishments know this, its time we stopped opposing everything British for the sake of an apology that will never suffice and start preparing for our inception into a new constitutional island and if this is the first stage then so be it!!!

Her visit to the Garden Of Remembrance will recognise SOME of those who fought and died for Irish Freedom. And claiming an apology would never suffice is disingenuous. As I have repeatedly stated, if the british army, like most other participants in the conflict, stopped heading misery on it's victims families, and admitted that it was not just "peacemaker" or "referee", I personally would be delighted to accept such an apology. There is just a sickening acceptance that the British Army was up to it's ear in collusion which resulted in hundreds of hundreds of deaths and that they should not be expected to come clean on their role in the whole conflict based on this. It's about time people stood up and voiced some support for it's victims in the whole debate. I am fed up of being told that anyone who holds this view is just "intolerant" or "anti-agreement" or "unwilling to move forward".

[Nally Stand]

I'm somewhere between both sides on this debate. I don't like the british royals, their history in this and any other country and I agree that this "lets show the brits how mature we are" attitude by many politicians and media is sickening to me. Most of these people of course haven't got a clue what they are talking about but its the same old argument that was beaten into GAA people when the debate about allowing soccer/rugby in croke park was going on - your just backward so your opinion doesn't count.

The other side of it is that the British Queen is a head of state of a neighbouring friendly nation that we do a lot of trade with. Her appearing here doesn't sit well with me but I think the possibility of increasing trade links in these tough times means I can stomach her being here by simply ignoring it. I'm sure there will be plenty of west brit t**sers out waving union jacks to make up for my absence.

+ 1.
Nally, Sinn Féin are reported as saying they won't be protesting as it would be unfair to two elderly people. They will organise other events of a "cultural nature " instead.
Sinn Féin are part of the northern Establishment and are comfortable with running the 6 Cos under British overlordship and the nominal overlordship of oul Mrs windsor.
Time for Nally to catch up with his favourite political party methinks 

They also are part of the southern establishment and have a strategy for developing All-Ireland co-operation. But anyway.....what's your point?

THey are NOT part of the "southern " establishment. Very much an opposition and basically "agin" everything .
My point is you're favourite party have moved on from you so you'd betetr get chasing after them.

Why the " marks around my references to 'southern' establishment? You didn't put them around 'northern' when you mentioned it? Whats the difference?

Anyway, I would say any party in the Dail is part of the southern political establishment.

[Nally Stand]

Who decides right now? Is it too much to ask that consideration be given to people who feel is it premature? Why MUST it happen now when it is still clearly so divisive?

Go on, answer that yourself.

How about you answer my post? (And not just the piece you put in bold)

Who decides? The President of Ireland would have sought advise from the Government of Ireland who would have consulted with the Government of England. Once they agreed the President of Ireland would have sent an invitation which she would already have known would be accepted. This was obviously discussed between Mary and Lizzy in advance and something they both wanted.

Is it too much...? Not at all. There are reasonable people making a reasonable case for this and they should probably have been consulted. However we all know unfortunately that certain unelected groups will most likely show up to protest and possible even try to pull something major off.

Why must it happen now? Hard to know what exactly is driving it but if I had to guess I'm thinking McAleese is coming to the end of her term while Lizzy isn't getting any younger. They may have established a real relationship (odd as it may sound) and agreed that they would go where the likes of John Major and Albert Reynolds had gone (not forgetting John Hume's vital role here) and where Bertie and Blair went.

I really am indifferent to her coming but now that it has been announced I would hate to see the visit stopped by protests or threats of violence or whatever.

At least we can agree that threats of violence are wrong on this one. Though just to re-emphasise (not that I'm accusing you of saying otherwise) - not everyone who opposes this visit is a dissident or anti GFA as other posters have implied,

[muppet]

At least we can agree that threats of violence are wrong on this one. Though just to re-emphasise (not that I'm accusing you of saying otherwise) - not everyone who opposes this visit is a dissident or anti GFA as other posters have implied,

I support the GFA, warts and all.

More seriously though maybe it is just me but I am honestly not bothered with symbolism, tokenism and flags etc. Thatcher visiting would find me biting my tongue as I would see her as directly involved (hunger strike etc.) but I would still not object. Lizzy, unilke L'Oreal, is just not with it.

[Evil Genius]

I have been thinking about this alot over the last couple of days and whilst my initial reaction was one of revulsion and dismay, I have had to analyse these feelings and put them into some sort of perspective.  Whilst the sovereign head of the British state gives me no positive feelings due to the fact that she remains the head of an army that played a major role in the oppression of my community, without much acceptance of that part, I have had to step back and look at this logically.

1 - the results of a census is due to be published in the near future.  It is highly suspicious that now, NISRA have suddenly removed the legal requirement to state religious background but beyond that I am expecting the gap between Protestant and Catholic in the North to close further.  It is stated by law in the GFA that when requisite numbers are reached, a referendum must be called to determine whether or not a United Ireland is possible.  I'm not saying that this time there will be sufficient numbers to enable this but once a referendum on the constitutional question is called, by law, it MUST be repeated every 7 years - something Unionists do not want to focus on - this fact will not have escaped the establishment in Britain!

2 - Looking at history, usually whenever a state visit of a British Monarch has occured in Ireland, some major constitutional change is occurring.  Perhaps, the planned visit by the Queen of England is to increase relations so that the inevitable can happen peacefully in the future.  I would not forsee an Ireland where Unionist people would be afraid of being participant in because they continue to see Irish people unwilling to embrace their culture - it will not be a success if this is to occur.

3 - Time to move on and wait and see what happens.  Let her come, it is the first time that a ruling monarch will give credence to the fact that her country was in a war with the Irish people.  She will do this by simply visiting the sites that she is intending.  By visiting Croke park, it will be highlighted what happened there so many years ago by troops acting in her country's name, by visiting the memorial, she will recognise for the first time those men who died for Irish freedom against her country.  In doing so she is recognising her country's part in this conflict.

So in weighing things up, and taking my instinctive feelings into account, I think I've concluded for myself that instead of this visit being opposed it should be welcomed and recognised as the first stage of the handover that will in the future be an inevitability.  Both establishments know this, its time we stopped opposing everything British for the sake of an apology that will never suffice and start preparing for our inception into a new constitutional island and if this is the first stage then so be it!!!

Wow!

I have read some fcuked up wishful thinking on this Board in my time, but that one must surely be up for some sort of award.

No doubt the prospect of Her Madge's Visit visit being some sort of precursor of Irish Unity warms your cockles etc, but when "thinking" [sic] about these matters, you really must try to resist deciding what outcome it is you want first, then manipulating the "facts" so as to produce such an outcome.

First, the religious question is only one of a number of questions in the NI version of the Census which differs from that of England/Wales:
http://help.census.gov.uk/ni/help/help-and-information/AbouttheCensus/Howtotakepart/Topics/DifferencesonNorthernIrelandquestionnaire_W0007C.html

Second, it (religious affiliation) has no relevance whatever to the calling or outcome of any possible future Referendum on the constitutional position of NI within the UK etc. Rather, the GFA states quite simply that: "... the Secretary of State shall exercise the power [to hold a referendum] if at any time it appears likely to him that a majority of those voting would express a wish that Northern Ireland should cease to be part of the United Kingdom and form part of a united Ireland."
http://www.nio.gov.uk/agreement.pdf (see Schedule 1)

Third, even if religious affiliation (perceived or actual) were somehow relevant, it does not provide any reliable guide as to voting preferences in such a referendum. However, if you should require a guide towards likely voting intentions, rather than engaging in a sectarian headcount, you only have to look at the Unionist and Nationalist vote in any of the numerous elections in NI this century to note that the Nationalist (therefore pro-United Ireland) vote has clearly plateaued. Moreover, SF's favourite psephologist, Prof. Brendan O'Leary (http://www.polisci.upenn.edu/ppec/PPEC%20People/Brendan%20O'Leary/Brendan%20O'Leary%20CV%20html.html) has fairly recently concluded that he sees no sign of that changing in the foreseeable future. (Indeed not only did he disclose this before a handpicked audience at a SF "Unite Ireland Conference" in New York - how embarrassing  - but this was in June 2009 i.e. well before the "Celtic Tiger" was revealed to be worth little more than a moth-eaten hearth rug.)

Fourth, rather than the law requiring that such a second referendum MUST be held within 7 years of any previous (failed) referendum, in fact the law states that a any such referendum MUST NOT be held any less than 7 years after the previous one: "The Secretary of State shall not make an order [for a referendum] under paragraph 1 earlier than seven years after the holding of a previous poll under this Schedule."

Therefore, whatever views the UK or Irish Governments may (privately) hold as to the desirability (or otherwise) of a United Ireland etc, their publicly stated  and irrevocable position is quite clear, namely that it will not happen unless or until a majority of the people of NI vote for it.

On which point, the Queen's forthcoming visit to the Republic is lilkely to have as much influence as, say, Will and Kate's Wedding at the end of this month i.e. none.