Get ready to wave them flegs - Lily Windsor's coming

[pintsofguinness]

and you know, thinking about it, it's not the fact the queen is coming which annoys me, I don't really care. It's the lack of any backbone from the Irish government and Cowen's declaration that there are no obstacles.
If he had to say she was coming but we've still got work to do, still need answers in relation to dozens of murders by British forces etc I'd be fine with that. 

[thewobbler]

I'm glad you can get on with your life, stick the head in the sand, "lets move on", "nothing here concerns me". Maybe you should give a thought to those visiting graves of loved ones killed by the British state and who still have never had any apology, explanation or acknowledgment their loved one didn't bring it upon themselves.

So it all comes down to Apologies, Explanations and Acknowledgments .


Tell me POG, how would you like these presented? And even at that, would you accept them?

Who would you like to present them? Should we fill a committee with someone past and present from the various strands of the UK army, the UK government, the UK monarchy, the Irish government, the RUC, etc etc?

Do you want to make these apologies on an individual basis for every single person who died during any Anglo-Irish problems? That would be good craic, spending another one hundred years digging up the "facts".

What about a sliding scale whereby we have to investigate every death over the past 800 years, and make more sincere apologies for those who were innocent bystanders, and less sincere ones for those who maybe "had it coming to them"?

Or how about typecasting each individual into groups and offering apologies in kind to each group. At least that way we could ply more money into the pockets of barristers. People would then get to sue twice, once for the injustice of being placed in a group, once for the injustices of the time.

Beyond that, surely only one unilateral apology would work. But then you would begrudge it for a lack of effort.


In all seriousness though, I do not believe for one second that the receipt any apology, explanation or acknowledgment will make a damn bit of difference to the mindset of those who are demanding them. It's a cover, a folly, a  plain and simple fuking excuse to gripe, moan and begrudge.




Also, please tell me if "we" will apologise back for any innocent bystanders who got whalloped during the IRA's bombing of britain campaign? Or is that fair game during war? If not, tell me who "we" are, and who in particular will be doing the apologising.

[thewobbler]

However if we do not address the problems of the past they will repeat themselves. We need an honest historical record in order to move on and in order to prevent it from happening again

This is nonsense. Utter nonsense.  The building block of every problem over the past 800 years is that England invaded Ireland, and that's not going to happen again.

[pintsofguinness]

I don't see why we shouldn't expect explanations and investigations for british state murders. Unlike other murders there were no investigations done at the time, it was just lies that were told so why shouldn't we expect proper investigations? Yes it would cost money but then so do investigations in to any murder. Apologies are the least I would accept although we should see prosecutions. 

With the advancement of DNA now we have old cases opened and the new technology finds those responsible. This costs time and money but you wouldn't dream of saying to those victim's families "well it's going to cost too much money, they're already dead aren't they, they're not going to be killed again, it's a long time ago, aren't you over it yet, move on" so why is that good enough for the families of those killed by british forces?

I don't know who you mean when you says should "we" apologise for the IRA killing innocent victims. The only people who can do that are the IRA.  I also thought they done something like that previously but if not they should have.

[Myles Na G.]

'For years the British have been killing and torturing innocent people on this Island. These victims were then often wrongly criminalised in order to justify the killings.'

Irish republicans have killed more and tortured more. They have, by their actions, deepened the divisions on this island and pushed back by many decades the time when we will see our country reunited. The 'problems' we are left with have nothing to do with the British, who would be out of this place in the morning, left to themselves. They have everything to do with the fact that 20% of the people on this island do not want to be reunited with the the other 80%. The fact that Irish republicans spent 25 years bombing and shooting this 20% in an effort to make them change their minds has simply reinforced their desire to remain part of the UK. A visit by the British head of state to the republic would no doubt be welcomed by northern unionists. It might convince some of them that Ireland has changed, has become more tolerant, more self assured, that it is no longer a priest ridden, republican ghetto. For that reason alone, I too would welcome it.

[Myles Na G.]

'For years the British have been killing and torturing innocent people on this Island. These victims were then often wrongly criminalised in order to justify the killings.'

Irish republicans have killed more and tortured more. They have, by their actions, deepened the divisions on this island and pushed back by many decades the time when we will see our country reunited. The 'problems' we are left with have nothing to do with the British, who would be out of this place in the morning, left to themselves. They have everything to do with the fact that 20% of the people on this island do not want to be reunited with the the other 80%. The fact that Irish republicans spent 25 years bombing and shooting this 20% in an effort to make them change their minds has simply reinforced their desire to remain part of the UK. A visit by the British head of state to the republic would no doubt be welcomed by northern unionists. It might convince some of them that Ireland has changed, has become more tolerant, more self assured, that it is no longer a priest ridden, republican ghetto. For that reason alone, I too would welcome it.

Perhaps you have posted on the wrong thread? This isn't a United Ireland thread.

Perhaps you read the wrong post? Mine was about the proposed visit to Ireland by the British head of state. Which post were you referring to?

[Myles Na G.]

'For years the British have been killing and torturing innocent people on this Island. These victims were then often wrongly criminalised in order to justify the killings.'

Irish republicans have killed more and tortured more. They have, by their actions, deepened the divisions on this island and pushed back by many decades the time when we will see our country reunited. The 'problems' we are left with have nothing to do with the British, who would be out of this place in the morning, left to themselves. They have everything to do with the fact that 20% of the people on this island do not want to be reunited with the the other 80%. The fact that Irish republicans spent 25 years bombing and shooting this 20% in an effort to make them change their minds has simply reinforced their desire to remain part of the UK. A visit by the British head of state to the republic would no doubt be welcomed by northern unionists. It might convince some of them that Ireland has changed, has become more tolerant, more self assured, that it is no longer a priest ridden, republican ghetto. For that reason alone, I too would welcome it.

Perhaps you have posted on the wrong thread? This isn't a United Ireland thread.

Perhaps you read the wrong post? Mine was about the proposed visit to Ireland by the British head of state. Which post were you referring to?

Just the parts in bold seem to be more about a UI than anything else. The closing point seems to be that this is a good thing as it's a step to a UI. I haven't thought of this thread along tose lines at all and therefore was throwen by the post. Apologies.

No problem.

[Hardy]

Good stuff wobbler.

it's not the fact the queen is coming which annoys me,

I presume you meang "going", pints.

[pintsofguinness]

Good stuff wobbler.

it's not the fact the queen is coming which annoys me,

I presume you meang "going", pints.

No, I'm spiritually still in Ireland.

I dont know what yous are commending wobbler for, he hasn't actually said anything, wheeled out the "move on" nonsense and made a few digs while acting a snob.

[Hardy]

I'm commending him for articulating a viewpoint on the controversty with which I agree.

[thewobbler]

POG and Zap, you can wheel out evasive lines all you like about me being patronising and snobby and setting a bar to high, but it doesn't get away from the simple fact that you fellas haven't actually pointed out what the UK monarchy and the Irish Government must deliver in order to appease you.

That's why I highlighted apologies, explanations and acknowledgements in bold. I would love you to offer a brief explanation as to what form of these would make you happy, and why.

And please don't revert to a United Ireland line. That's simply not a plausible option at present without a bloodbath. And if you think its worth a bloodbath, good for you - that's your privilege, but then I'll expect to be reading your names in stone before too long.

Do you think that the recipients of Ireland's socail welfare's opinion is less worthy than your own? It's for another thread but the vast majority of these people do not fit into that description.

As you say, this is another discussion. But the long-term unemployed are parasites on society. They have no interest in furthering themselves, their families or their communities. When they start contributing to society instead of taking from it, then they can try to shape its future.

[pintsofguinness]

Wobbler, I think you need to read through the posts again, you are the only one who is being evasive, you actually haven't said anything or made any argument. You're posts on this matter, if we take out the snide digs, can be summed up in two words "move on".
I don't want the UK monarchy to do anything really and I've already pointed out the least I would expect from the Irish Government.

[give her dixie]

POG and Zap, you can wheel out evasive lines all you like about me being patronising and snobby and setting a bar to high, but it doesn't get away from the simple fact that you fellas haven't actually pointed out what the UK monarchy and the Irish Government must deliver in order to appease you.

That's why I highlighted apologies, explanations and acknowledgements in bold. I would love you to offer a brief explanation as to what form of these would make you happy, and why.

And please don't revert to a United Ireland line. That's simply not a plausible option at present without a bloodbath. And if you think its worth a bloodbath, good for you - that's your privilege, but then I'll expect to be reading your names in stone before too long.

Do you think that the recipients of Ireland's socail welfare's opinion is less worthy than your own? It's for another thread but the vast majority of these people do not fit into that description.

As you say, this is another discussion. But the long-term unemployed are parasites on society. They have no interest in furthering themselves, their families or their communities. When they start contributing to society instead of taking from it, then they can try to shape its future.

Disgusting remark Wobbler. It's the Irish Government and their greedy banker friends who are the real parasites and they are responsible for so many people who are now on the dole.

[thewobbler]

Ah okay, we're going to get personal by the look of it.

Disgusting remark Wobbler. It's the Irish Government and their greedy banker friends who are the real parasites and they are responsible for so many people who are now on the dole

1. I described the long-term unemployed as parasites, not the recently unemployed. So let's not start twisting.
2. The bankers and government fucked the country, no doubt. But the twin terrors of greed and unwillingness to put in a good shift of work run much deeper in Irish society than at the top table, and present the biggest stumblings blocks for recovery.

[Myles Na G.]

Sinn Fein's take on the topic. Make sure you've been to the toilet before you start reading this, otherwise there's a real danger you'll wet your pants laughing.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/northern_ireland_politics/10421223.stm

Here's the bit where I lost control of my bladder:
"Sinn Fein opposes the proposed state visit of the Queen of England, commander-in-chief of the British armed forces," said TD Caoimhghin O Caolain.

"Until there is complete withdrawal of the British military and the British administration from Ireland, and until there is justice and truth for victims of collusion, no official welcome should be accorded to any officer of the British armed forces of any rank," he continued.
So that'll be the British administration up at Stormont, then, the one in which SF hopes to have the most MLA's next year?