James Horan Appointed Mayo Manager 2011

[Lar Naparka]

There is a huge myth too about tactical cuteness. Look at Gaelic games today - how many geniuses are there? Micky Harte? Jack O'Connor? then who? Grimley ... it's a myth. Harte is good but there is a very large body of opinion that argues Harte is blessed with players who on the field adapt to what is happening. In other words, don't over estimate tactical nous.

Waffle......and plain wrong on so many levels it's ridiculous.

Just one of what could be 2 million examples to disprove that statement would be Fergal O'Donnell getting his tactics spot on in the Connacht Final, which was the winning of the game.

I think that s a bit severe Beard. Ok, Ros got tactics right for the game. But what about Kevin Walsh? He was touted as a master tactician after Mayo but didn't look too hot against Ros. Sometimes managers pull strokes and they work but their success is often down to the cop of coach and players on the other side. Mayo had no cop or fight this year and made Walsh look good. How good he is remains to be seen. I think he ran out of players v Ros. The true worth of Fergal O Donnell remains to be seen as well.

I'd certainly agree with all that, moysider. Fergie O'Donnell certainly played his cards well in the Connacht final but the extent to which the Ros victory can be put down to his tactical ability is debatable. It can fairly be argued that it was a case of Sligo losing the game rather than the Rossies winning it.
I'm not begrudging Fergal and his lads their win in any way but they certainly had an easier route to the final than Sligo had.  They had a deplorable league run so nothing much was expected of them in the championships. They won a scrappy game against Leitrim and came into the final under no pressure whatever.
For Sligo, it was a case of too many doors opening too easily before them and they took Roscommon for granted. But if you compare their respective achievements over league and championships, you'd have to give Walsh the nod over O'Donnell.

For my money, Mickey Harte is a tactical genius.
His deployment of Peter Canavan in the 2005 final won the AI for Tyrone and I have yet to hear a dissenting voice from any quarter. For that alone he earns my five star rating.
With regard to managers pulling strokes and being aided and abetted by their opposite number's lack of cop, you need to look no further than the Mayo v Galway game in '07. I wouldn't regard Peter Ford as being a tactical maestro by any means but he managed to pull a stroke from the start by moving his half forwards up into the FF spaces and completely bamboozled their markers and Johnno in the process.
By the time our bucko realised what was going on, Galway had built up an unassailable lead.
Like the case of O'Donnell v Walsh, it was probably a mixture of astuteness on the part of the winning manager allied with incompetence on the loser's side.
You can't really rate any manager on the result of a single game- there are too many variables involved.
IMO, Walsh has proved his worth; O'Donnell has still to do so.

[Mac2]

I find it laughable that people refer to the Mayo managerial appointment as a poisoned chalice, that we've no expectation of anything but an All-Ireland. If anything it's the opposite the Mayo supporters have shown remarkable patience and restraint with some of the crap we've had to endure for the last few years, it wasn't the Mayo supporters who turfed out M&M in 2006. The majority of supporters just want the team to show up and perform with passion, that would be a good start. This portrayal particularly in the media that we're all foam at mouth cretins with Sam or nothing banners pisses me off and invariably lets those who are responsible for the mess we're in off the hook. This is a great time for someone to manage the team, we're close to the nadir,(JOM is to be lauded for delivering the dampening of expectations he promised) but we do have some good players coming through along with existing ones who just need to get their confidence back, there's some good claret in the chalice.

[moysider]

I find it laughable that people refer to the Mayo managerial appointment as a poisoned chalice, that we've no expectation of anything but an All-Ireland. If anything it's the opposite the Mayo supporters have shown remarkable patience and restraint with some of the crap we've had to endure for the last few years, it wasn't the Mayo supporters who turfed out M&M in 2006. The majority of supporters just want the team to show up and perform with passion, that would be a good start. This portrayal particularly in the media that we're all foam at mouth cretins with Sam or nothing banners pisses me off and invariably lets those who are responsible for the mess we're in off the hook. This is a great time for someone to manage the team, we're close to the nadir,(JOM is to be lauded for delivering the dampening of expectations he promised) but we do have some good players coming through along with existing ones who just need to get their confidence back, there's some good claret in the chalice.

I d agree Mac2 to an extent. I have never believed in the supporters expectations nonesense. I do believe the next manager has an awful job ahead of him though - mainly staying out of the way of his employers. Remember M&M were dead men walking before their first championship because the executive didn't like the cut of their jibs. These boys like managers who do things their way. Johnno survived because he had the authority to reverse the roles and he assumed the alpha role and kept it for as long as he wished.
  If the ececutive put in a patsy they can brow beat we ll just get the same ould performances. Also a homegrown choice will be viewed with great suspicion by the club delegates - and supporters for what its worth - and will come under attack at the first opportunity. As well as an experienced coach/manager we need somebody grizzled enough to to deal with the board. There are not many about that can do that.

[criostlinn]

Very little mention of James Horan as a possible candidate. Not even mentioned in the poll. He seems to have Ballintubber flying at the moment. He always seemed to talk a lot of sense when writing in the Western and was a great man on the big day during his playing days. What do the rest of ye think

[moysider]

Very little mention of James Horan as a possible candidate. Not even mentioned in the poll. He seems to have Ballintubber flying at the moment. He always seemed to talk a lot of sense when writing in the Western and was a great man on the big day during his playing days. What do the rest of ye think

Should certainly be in the reckoning if interested. Colm Mac is another local that I would rate ahead of most on that poll. Y know maybe we ll get lucky and one of these may be a revelation. Certainly talked a lot of sense in the Western. Another thing in his favour as far as I m concerned is that he looked a very frustrated man at the end of his career. I reckon he saw things on the pitch that others didn't. Iremember a great run he made inside v Cork 99. He was through on goal and a goal would have sent us clear at a time when we were in top. Of course the guy on the ball didn't see him or ignored him and the chance was gone. Horan was not happy about it and rightly so. It s things like that that have cost us dearly down the years. Players without vision or radar or whatever are no good whatever other qualities they may bring.

[stephenite]

Very little mention of James Horan as a possible candidate. Not even mentioned in the poll. He seems to have Ballintubber flying at the moment. He always seemed to talk a lot of sense when writing in the Western and was a great man on the big day during his playing days. What do the rest of ye think

Certainly talked a lot of sense in the Western.

FFS so did John O'Mahony once upon a time. I don't know whether or not Horan or Colm Mc would be good choices, but anyone can sound good, especially in a bad paper.

[JMohan]

There is a huge myth too about tactical cuteness. Look at Gaelic games today - how many geniuses are there? Micky Harte? Jack O'Connor? then who? Grimley ... it's a myth. Harte is good but there is a very large body of opinion that argues Harte is blessed with players who on the field adapt to what is happening. In other words, don't over estimate tactical nous.

Waffle......and plain wrong on so many levels it's ridiculous.

Just one of what could be 2 million examples to disprove that statement would be Fergal O'Donnell getting his tactics spot on in the Connacht Final, which was the winning of the game.

Sure, there's plenty of examples of 'one off's' or some good moves, good games, but there's very few genius's out there, or guys who win games tactically on a regular basis, part from Harte and a few others.

[criostlinn]

Very little mention of James Horan as a possible candidate. Not even mentioned in the poll. He seems to have Ballintubber flying at the moment. He always seemed to talk a lot of sense when writing in the Western and was a great man on the big day during his playing days. What do the rest of ye think

Certainly talked a lot of sense in the Western.

FFS so did John O'Mahony once upon a time. I don't know whether or not Horan or Colm Mc would be good choices, but anyone can sound good, especially in a bad paper.

FFS, isnt it better that he is talking sense then talking rubbish. Nobody is giving him the job on what he rights in the paper. Its just a point been made. John O'Mahoney won 2 all irelands once upon a time. Does that mean we rule out all ireland winning managers for the Mayo job aswell.

[Barney]

Alot of interesting comments here.

I don't think our players can compete with every team on a given team at the moment. I think a few years ago they were able to do so. The reason for that is the most incompetent managerial stint in Mayo football since Jack O'Shea but also the fact that we just don't have players of the calibre of a James Nallen, a David Brady, a Ciaran McDonald or a Kevin O'Neill any more. These were lads that on a given day could rise about the much of a muchness standard in a Mayo panel and drive a game home. That is why we were there or thereabouts when the breaks that Kildare or Down or Dublin are getting this year came in 2004 and in 2006.

Not only have we lost these players but we have fellas that are clearly troubled by the 2004 and 2006 Finals mixed in with some very young lads all of whom have had no direction since 2006. 

I think today we are a midranking team with the potential to be a regular Quarter Final team, with a decent chance of a semi-final with an exceptional performance.

You do get the feeling that it will be down to luck if the decision that is made is right. I don't know whether any of the candidates that have been listed have the ferocity of desire that the job clearly needs. A desire that has them knowing every step their players take, a regular monitoring of training progress (mind even going to training will be a step up), the ability to get into the players heads, to mould a group, to develop their own style of play and to preach a calmness when the going gets tough in high Summer. Even if that desire is there they will be held back by the County Board who will create obstacles no matter how innovative this new man may be.

The likes of a James Horan, a Colm Mc, or a Noel Connelly are all risks but there may be a Mickey Harte or a Jack O'Connor amongst them. We don't know but they have been our leaders on the field in the past and should be respected. I think we are better off with some group of 3/4 of these lads than Mick O'Dwyer coming in. I know moysiders point that on any given year we should be looking to have our best team out to do the best that can possible be achieved. When our best is likely to be short without developing top-level experience and a consistent style of play, level of training etc you do need to look beyhond 2/3 years.

And then we can look at the manager all we want but how badly are the players willing to suffer to get to the top? Do they want to? How many of them are actually training away a few evenings on their own in the gym to be ready for next year or are they waiting like a crowd of sheep to be guided? Because the latter group or the fellas that will let you down, and the former set are the fellas I want playing for Mayo.

[Barney]

Anybody know of any actual nominations?

[moysider]

Very little mention of James Horan as a possible candidate. Not even mentioned in the poll. He seems to have Ballintubber flying at the moment. He always seemed to talk a lot of sense when writing in the Western and was a great man on the big day during his playing days. What do the rest of ye think

Certainly talked a lot of sense in the Western.

FFS so did John O'Mahony once upon a time. I don't know whether or not Horan or Colm Mc would be good choices, but anyone can sound good, especially in a bad paper.

I don't know whether they can either. With these guys we don't have a lot to go on.

[SLIGONIAN]

There is a huge myth too about tactical cuteness. Look at Gaelic games today - how many geniuses are there? Micky Harte? Jack O'Connor? then who? Grimley ... it's a myth. Harte is good but there is a very large body of opinion that argues Harte is blessed with players who on the field adapt to what is happening. In other words, don't over estimate tactical nous.

Waffle......and plain wrong on so many levels it's ridiculous.

Just one of what could be 2 million examples to disprove that statement would be Fergal O'Donnell getting his tactics spot on in the Connacht Final, which was the winning of the game.

I think that s a bit severe Beard. Ok, Ros got tactics right for the game. But what about Kevin Walsh? He was touted as a master tactician after Mayo but didn't look too hot against Ros. Sometimes managers pull strokes and they work but their success is often down to the cop of coach and players on the other side. Mayo had no cop or fight this year and made Walsh look good. How good he is remains to be seen. I think he ran out of players v Ros. The true worth of Fergal O Donnell remains to be seen as well.

I'd certainly agree with all that, moysider. Fergie O'Donnell certainly played his cards well in the Connacht final but the extent to which the Ros victory can be put down to his tactical ability is debatable. It can fairly be argued that it was a case of Sligo losing the game rather than the Rossies winning it.
I'm not begrudging Fergal and his lads their win in any way but they certainly had an easier route to the final than Sligo had.  They had a deplorable league run so nothing much was expected of them in the championships. They won a scrappy game against Leitrim and came into the final under no pressure whatever.
For Sligo, it was a case of too many doors opening too easily before them and they took Roscommon for granted. But if you compare their respective achievements over league and championships, you'd have to give Walsh the nod over O'Donnell.

For my money, Mickey Harte is a tactical genius.
His deployment of Peter Canavan in the 2005 final won the AI for Tyrone and I have yet to hear a dissenting voice from any quarter. For that alone he earns my five star rating.
With regard to managers pulling strokes and being aided and abetted by their opposite number's lack of cop, you need to look no further than the Mayo v Galway game in '07. I wouldn't regard Peter Ford as being a tactical maestro by any means but he managed to pull a stroke from the start by moving his half forwards up into the FF spaces and completely bamboozled their markers and Johnno in the process.
By the time our bucko realised what was going on, Galway had built up an unassailable lead.
Like the case of O'Donnell v Walsh, it was probably a mixture of astuteness on the part of the winning manager allied with incompetence on the loser's side.
You can't really rate any manager on the result of a single game- there are too many variables involved.
IMO, Walsh has proved his worth; O'Donnell has still to do so.

Wrong, wrong wrong, imo. He still has an awful lot to prove to me and others, to list our concerns would be to go way off topic, but you put way too much importance on our back to back promotions when there was alot of luck involved more than good management. Its looking likely there will be announcement tonight on Walsh and Sligo but jees in 2011 we will see walshs worth if he stays with us, div2 will not afford us much luck and we wil likely have to play a qtr final, semi  etc... next yr in connacht as we dont play london or ny.

[moysider]

Alot of interesting comments here.

I don't think our players can compete with every team on a given team at the moment. I think a few years ago they were able to do so. The reason for that is the most incompetent managerial stint in Mayo football since Jack O'Shea but also the fact that we just don't have players of the calibre of a James Nallen, a David Brady, a Ciaran McDonald or a Kevin O'Neill any more. These were lads that on a given day could rise about the much of a muchness standard in a Mayo panel and drive a game home. That is why we were there or thereabouts when the breaks that Kildare or Down or Dublin are getting this year came in 2004 and in 2006.

Not only have we lost these players but we have fellas that are clearly troubled by the 2004 and 2006 Finals mixed in with some very young lads all of whom have had no direction since 2006. 

I think today we are a midranking team with the potential to be a regular Quarter Final team, with a decent chance of a semi-final with an exceptional performance.

You do get the feeling that it will be down to luck if the decision that is made is right. I don't know whether any of the candidates that have been listed have the ferocity of desire that the job clearly needs. A desire that has them knowing every step their players take, a regular monitoring of training progress (mind even going to training will be a step up), the ability to get into the players heads, to mould a group, to develop their own style of play and to preach a calmness when the going gets tough in high Summer. Even if that desire is there they will be held back by the County Board who will create obstacles no matter how innovative this new man may be.

The likes of a James Horan, a Colm Mc, or a Noel Connelly are all risks but there may be a Mickey Harte or a Jack O'Connor amongst them. We don't know but they have been our leaders on the field in the past and should be respected. I think we are better off with some group of 3/4 of these lads than Mick O'Dwyer coming in. I know moysiders point that on any given year we should be looking to have our best team out to do the best that can possible be achieved. When our best is likely to be short without developing top-level experience and a consistent style of play, level of training etc you do need to look beyhond 2/3 years.

And then we can look at the manager all we want but how badly are the players willing to suffer to get to the top? Do they want to? How many of them are actually training away a few evenings on their own in the gym to be ready for next year or are they waiting like a crowd of sheep to be guided? Because the latter group or the fellas that will let you down, and the former set are the fellas I want playing for Mayo.

My point Barney about putting out the best team each year is something I believe is the basis of developing a team. The silliness of the last 4 years kinda backs that up. Johnno played guys in year 1 with a view to them being experienced players in year 3/4 and would be contenders. But because they were losers they were gone by year 2. So, as predicted by those who were not listened to at the time, he didn't know what he was at. By year 4 he was still without a foundation. I dont know about the rest of ye but I m not getting any younger. Another 4 years down the Swannee would be the guts of a decade wasted. I wouldn' t trust anybody with more than 2 years initially. If the players are there and the manager knows his onions it does not take years to sort something good out. If the manager is cat he can be given all the time he wants and nothing good will come of it.

[paddypastit]

There is a huge myth too about tactical cuteness. Look at Gaelic games today - how many geniuses are there? Micky Harte? Jack O'Connor? then who? Grimley ... it's a myth. Harte is good but there is a very large body of opinion that argues Harte is blessed with players who on the field adapt to what is happening. In other words, don't over estimate tactical nous.

Waffle......and plain wrong on so many levels it's ridiculous.

Just one of what could be 2 million examples to disprove that statement would be Fergal O'Donnell getting his tactics spot on in the Connacht Final, which was the winning of the game.

I think that s a bit severe Beard. Ok, Ros got tactics right for the game. But what about Kevin Walsh? He was touted as a master tactician after Mayo but didn't look too hot against Ros. Sometimes managers pull strokes and they work but their success is often down to the cop of coach and players on the other side. Mayo had no cop or fight this year and made Walsh look good. How good he is remains to be seen. I think he ran out of players v Ros. The true worth of Fergal O Donnell remains to be seen as well.

I'd certainly agree with all that, moysider. Fergie O'Donnell certainly played his cards well in the Connacht final but the extent to which the Ros victory can be put down to his tactical ability is debatable. It can fairly be argued that it was a case of Sligo losing the game rather than the Rossies winning it.
I'm not begrudging Fergal and his lads their win in any way but they certainly had an easier route to the final than Sligo had.  They had a deplorable league run so nothing much was expected of them in the championships. They won a scrappy game against Leitrim and came into the final under no pressure whatever.
For Sligo, it was a case of too many doors opening too easily before them and they took Roscommon for granted. But if you compare their respective achievements over league and championships, you'd have to give Walsh the nod over O'Donnell.

For my money, Mickey Harte is a tactical genius.
His deployment of Peter Canavan in the 2005 final won the AI for Tyrone and I have yet to hear a dissenting voice from any quarter. For that alone he earns my five star rating.
With regard to managers pulling strokes and being aided and abetted by their opposite number's lack of cop, you need to look no further than the Mayo v Galway game in '07. I wouldn't regard Peter Ford as being a tactical maestro by any means but he managed to pull a stroke from the start by moving his half forwards up into the FF spaces and completely bamboozled their markers and Johnno in the process.
By the time our bucko realised what was going on, Galway had built up an unassailable lead.
Like the case of O'Donnell v Walsh, it was probably a mixture of astuteness on the part of the winning manager allied with incompetence on the loser's side.
You can't really rate any manager on the result of a single game- there are too many variables involved.
IMO, Walsh has proved his worth; O'Donnell has still to do so.

Wrong, wrong wrong, imo. He still has an awful lot to prove to me and others, to list our concerns would be to go way off topic, but you put way too much importance on our back to back promotions when there was alot of luck involved more than good management. Its looking likely there will be announcement tonight on Walsh and Sligo but jees in 2011 we will see walshs worth if he stays with us, div2 will not afford us much luck and we wil likely have to play a qtr final, semi  etc... next yr in connacht as we dont play london or ny.

Without getting drawn inbto the 'how good is Walsh ' devbate which is totally irellevant, thne epic standing being given to O'Donnell's work in the Connacht final ignores the fact that with 8 minutes to go in that game, his team and his tactics had run out of road but the Sligo team hadn't the composure or self assurance to drive home the momentum they had regained. Bad decisions taken on the ball and the wrong preople on the ball in the wrong places cost them.  Roscommon had a limited Plan A that got them out in front early that screwed Sligo's heads.  If Sligo had even two players that could have risen above that Roscommon would be remembered as no more than brave.

FWIW, I think pretty much any manager can set a team out from the start of a game to achieve a given objective - the real tacticians to savour and niurture are the ones trhat can make game saving / winning moves during a game.

Park all of that and recognise that managing a team is about a hell of a lot more than tactical decision making - it is about coaching individuals, coaching a team (two totally different jobs), selection, man management, getting the back up right, motivation, planning, organising and also managing the offeecials and hangers on thta can get in the way.  Then recognise that every team and every copunty is at a different stage and point and that even within a county, a team and the need will change over time - it's a bit of a lottery and then when you add in that the folk making the decision are often acting in reaction to something that has happened (success / failure) and that they may even have a conflict... well it's a wonder anyone ever gets it right!!

[stephenite]

On a different note - we may as well try and win something this year - if ye have the time drop a vote for Ireland's most dedicated GAA fan - Thomas Harrison.

http://www.supervalu.ie/in_the_community/irelands_most_dedicated_gaa_fan_final_voting.724.bursarylist.html

PS: I'm not Thomas Harrison