Is K McGeeney over rated as a Manager???

[Bud Wiser]

It's not McGeeney that is over rated as a manager, its the team, like Mayo that are over rated. 
There was no bite in that Kildare team last night except for maybe one player who on one occasion gave the clenched fist and urged his mates to get stuck in, other than that they were like they were having a kick around on a training ground.

Mayo no doubt will be looking for the head of John O Mahoney and yet all that was proven last night was that you can't buy All-Irelands by hiring whizz kids, or in the case of Limerick hurling a few years ago, with €5 Million from JP McManus. We even tried it in Laois by hiring Micko at huge financial cost.

That is not to say McGeeney is at fault, there is a place for McGeeney because he has credentials. That place is in one of the conference centres in Croke Park along with Brian Cody and Micko where a full training course on team management is provided for every county.  Pay them, pay them well.  Then every county can get expert advice on training, psycology, diet etc, etc, etc - after which each county must have a manager from their own county instead of these hired heavy hitters that can give counties with most sponsorship/money an unfair advantage, until some plucky team like Louth come along and then all of a sudden it is the managers fault.

[INDIANA]

It's not McGeeney that is over rated as a manager, its the team, like Mayo that are over rated. 
There was no bite in that Kildare team last night except for maybe one player who on one occasion gave the clenched fist and urged his mates to get stuck in, other than that they were like they were having a kick around on a training ground.

Mayo no doubt will be looking for the head of John O Mahoney and yet all that was proven last night was that you can't buy All-Irelands by hiring whizz kids, or in the case of Limerick hurling a few years ago, with €5 Million from JP McManus. We even tried it in Laois by hiring Micko at huge financial cost.

That is not to say McGeeney is at fault, there is a place for McGeeney because he has credentials. That place is in one of the conference centres in Croke Park along with Brian Cody and Micko where a full training course on team management is provided for every county.  Pay them, pay them well.  Then every county can get expert advice on training, psycology, diet etc, etc, etc - after which each county must have a manager from their own county instead of these hired heavy hitters that can give counties with most sponsorship/money an unfair advantage, until some plucky team like Louth come along and then all of a sudden it is the managers fault.

Bud he has playing credentials not managerial credentials. There is a difference. A big difference.
The management don't like smaller players it seems in Kildare and have gone for the Armagh 2002 model which is outdated now.

[cavanmaniac]

I think McGeeney needed Grimley alongside him a bit longer, for tactical input and so on, until he has the ropes learned a bit more himself.

Why? Kildare with McGeeney and Grimley were knocked out first round in 2008 ( v Wicklow) and lost by a goal in the All-Ireland quarters to Cork. Why would Grimley have made a difference this year?

I realise that alright but I'd view that Wicklow result as a blip...they went on to beat Cavan, Fermanagh and Limerick in the qualifiers and did well against a decent Cork side in the quarter, which was a good pick up from their first day and very decent progress for season one.
Last year - the difficult second season - they improved again and big(ger) things were expected this year but they haven't materialised and the link to me appears to be Grimley.

Grimley shored up Donal Keogan's management fairly well when he was with us - league promotion, SFC replay with Down, and although results stayted largely the same I think the big difference was that we looked fairly clueless on the line once he left. I think McGeeney will be a decent manager but he had no experience going in there and Grimley was a big influence I'd say. I'm in no way placing him in the same bracket as Keogan by the way, before someone gets a bee in their knickers.

It's plain to be seen from league and now championship that a lot of the momentum has leaked and things look to be unravelling a bit. It'll be a severe test of his management to turn it around now that's for sure.

[pintsofguinness]

He cost them some tank of money... if I was a customer I'd expect better value.

Kildare have no one to blame but themselves, they accepted McGeeney as manager when he had zero managerial experience, that's madness.

[Bud Wiser]

Bud he has playing credentials not managerial credentials. There is a difference. A big difference.
The management don't like smaller players it seems in Kildare and have gone for the Armagh 2002 model which is outdated now.

I accept your point but someone has to start somewhere and if you look at the rest of the managers qualifications surely he is comparable with a lot, if not better qualified than most.  Like Pints says, Kildare have no one to blame but themselves.

McGeeney captained Armagh to their first All-Ireland victory in 2002. He has won three All-Stars (1999, 2000 and 2002) and six Ulster championship medals (1999, 2000, 2002, 2004, 2005, 2006). He also received the 2002 Texaco Footballer of the Year award. He achieved a lot of this with no small thanks to Big Joe and that is a lot of experience to have.  Armagh would have won nothing without him and yet, the irony, Big Joe is over in Galway selling his wares and McGeeney is down in Kildare selling his.  If Sligo bate Galway they might as well have been above in the field with me sowing turnips.

The GAA need to impose a rule that managers are from their own county, end of.  Each county should be afforded a training course with representatives from each club attending including those that mentor senior clubs, junior clubs in both codes and a standard set where weaker counties have the same training support in terms of all the elements of what the top teams have. Thirty two counties, a course once a week each year which would ultimately see the highest level of expertise and training equipment and specialist advisors being made available on equal terms instead of those who can afford the most buying the best.

In any case Kildare and Mayo are over rated teams that for some reason or another everyone thinks are due an All-Ireland and I am pissed off listening to "I wouldn't begrudge Mayo an All-Ireland or I wouldn't begrudge Kildare...."  while the reality is I have more chance of one of my turnips turning into the Sam Maguire than they ever have of winning it, with or without Kieran McGeeney.

[pintsofguinness]

The GAA need to impose a rule that managers are from their own county, end of.

Agree with that. Managers for club and county should be subject to the same transfer rules as players.
It's badly needed.

[Cde]

All is not well in the Kildare camp.  A few of the players not getting on with Mc Geeney and are not happy with his methods.

Heard this at the start of the year and it is getting worse

[Zulu]

The GAA need to impose a rule that managers are from their own county, end of.

Nonsense Bud and a typical GAA over-reaction to results. It would be madness if one county had 3 proven IC managers and they weren't allowed to travel to manage counties who hadn't any, especially weaker counties. Whatever you can say about Micko he helped generate massive interest in football in the counties he has managed, JOM won Connacht with Leitrim, would a Leitrim man have achieved that? Why should great football or hurling thinkers not be allowed to spread their wisdom and experience? Would Waterford hurlers have achieved as much as they have without the 2 Cork born McCarthy's? I don't think so.

Thirty two counties, a course once a week each year which would ultimately see the highest level of expertise and training equipment and specialist advisors being made available on equal terms instead of those who can afford the most buying the best.

Jesus Bud stop will ya. Managing teams isn't something that can be taught to large numbers of people by attending seminars, it is something you have or don't have and you develop and refine it through experience to become the finished article. Most people aren't capable of being a top level manager or coach.

[pintsofguinness]

Nonsense Bud and a typical GAA over-reaction to results. It would be madness if one county had 3 proven IC managers and they weren't allowed to travel to manage counties who hadn't any, especially weaker counties. Whatever you can say about Micko he helped generate massive interest in football in the counties he has managed, JOM won Connacht with Leitrim, would a Leitrim man have achieved that? Why should great football or hurling thinkers not be allowed to spread their wisdom and experience? Would Waterford hurlers have achieved as much as they have without the 2 Cork born McCarthy's? I don't think so.

YOu could argue the same about players.

[Zulu]

Yes but every county has plenty of players to choose from and can set up development squads to enhance players skills. Like managers the very best will be largely born rather than made but you can mould players far more easily than managers. There are 32 IC football managers at any one time, in other words one panels worth of managers, why would we want a situation where good football men are sitting around unable to use their knowledge to assist counties who lack that expertise or who don't have men willing to put in that time anymore?

Like I said would we better off if Micko was out of IC football since the mid 80's? Should Micky Harte's knowledge and experience go with him when he retires from Tyrone?

[Bud Wiser]

The GAA need to impose a rule that managers are from their own county, end of.

Nonsense Bud and a typical GAA over-reaction to results. It would be madness if one county had 3 proven IC managers and they weren't allowed to travel to manage counties who hadn't any, especially weaker counties. Whatever you can say about Micko he helped generate massive interest in football in the counties he has managed, JOM won Connacht with Leitrim, would a Leitrim man have achieved that? Why should great football or hurling thinkers not be allowed to spread their wisdom and experience? Would Waterford hurlers have achieved as much as they have without the 2 Cork born McCarthy's? I don't think so.

Thirty two counties, a course once a week each year which would ultimately see the highest level of expertise and training equipment and specialist advisors being made available on equal terms instead of those who can afford the most buying the best.

Jesus Bud stop will ya. Managing teams isn't something that can be taught to large numbers of people by attending seminars, it is something you have or don't have and you develop and refine it through experience to become the finished article. Most people aren't capable of being a top level manager or coach.

Exactly, and do you think the very best managers will go to the weaker counties?  If you do it is you who are talking nonsense because unless they are completely thickos they will go where the most money is, and that is precisely what they are doing at the moment.  It was not long after the big builder that had to sell the helicopters and his stable of race horses that sponsored Wicklow announced his financial difficulties that Micko stuck up the white flag. 

Managing people by attending seminars is not precisely what I meant, what I meant was some courses similar to what you have to do to get a coaching badge to manage a soccer team.  Do you think Man Utd, or Accrington Stanley would employ a manager on the basis he was a TD or just because he had won a few medals.  Not so, ask Roy Keane.  A professional approach to management and development of gaelic games is needed that is based on equality. For example, I have great admiration for McGeeney and for that matter Enda McNulty but it may well transpire that McGeeney had all the attributes to go with certain aspects of management based on his own, ie, dedication etc,etc.  Mickey Harte had a right hand man for tacticts (can't remember his name) but get a pool of the best to provide even a 'try it before we buy it' for a year and see how it works.

[pintsofguinness]

Yes but every county has plenty of players to choose from and can set up development squads to enhance players skills. Like managers the very best will be largely born rather than made but you can mould players far more easily than managers. There are 32 IC football managers at any one time, in other words one panels worth of managers, why would we want a situation where good football men are sitting around unable to use their knowledge to assist counties who lack that expertise or who don't have men willing to put in that time anymore?

Like I said would we better off if Micko was out of IC football since the mid 80's? Should Micky Harte's knowledge and experience go with him when he retires from Tyrone?

I'd be more than happy for Micko to be out of football since the mid 80s! A mercenary if ever there was one.
Players may be sitting on sub benches that could play and help weaker counties but you wouldn't be arguing for them to be allowed to transfer so why do it for managers?
Why should counties/clubs with the most money be given an unfair advantage, that's not what the GAA is about.

[Zulu]

Are you mad Bud, who are Celtic appointing as their next manager? What coaching badges does the Barcelona manager have or Bilic when he took Croatia, Klinsmann when he had Germany, Mark Hughes or the current Man city manager? Soccer is as bad or worse than GAA for appointing managers on the basis of playing careers and they are very slow to adopt the best sport science support available.

I would agree than to coach at IC level you should have top level qualifications and managers should cut their teeth at a lower level fist but to say that every county will be able to provide this themselves is fanciful and it would be madness if some counties have an abundance of talent in this respect that they should be barred from helping other counties.

I'd be more than happy for Micko to be out of football since the mid 80s! A mercenary if ever there was one.

Would the people of Kildare, Laois or Wicklow agree with you?

Players may be sitting on sub benches that could play and help weaker counties but you wouldn't be arguing for them to be allowed to transfer so why do it for managers?

For the reason I've already said, there are only 32 IC football jobs available and they should be filled by the best we have and every player in the country would agree. If I'm busting my hump as a player I want a knowledgeable football man in charge not a local man if he hasn't a clue.

Why should counties/clubs with the most money be given an unfair advantage, that's not what the GAA is about.

Jesus Christ will you stop. Ok then lets scrap the county system and have 32 teams with the exact same number of clubs to pick from first, we should also scrap the provincial championships to make it even and then we'll talk about the managers. An unfair advantage is not what the GAA is about, Christ it is exactly what the GAA is about, unless you think Dublin and Longford are the same.

[sammymaguire]

another Roy Keane type scenario, big on-field reputation but struggling to achieve the heights they managed on it from the sideline.. maybe its what they have to work with 

[Bud Wiser]

Would the people of Kildare, Laois or Wicklow agree with you?

As CJH said , he did some good, but I would agree, yes, I would agree on the basis that if a manager is getting a car, accomodation and €80,000 a year on top of it and if instead, over a three or four year period, if that half a million was put into other things for the players it might yield even better results.  Whatever about Laois, Wicklow or Kildare people agreeing the people of Dublin certainly won't considering the approach that was made in the K Club in mid season when Micko was with Laois.

McGeeney and JOM will not be the only managers whose positions will be put under pressure before this championship is over, not least the position of Pat Gilroy.  If I was a betting man I would have a flutter that if anyone else beats the Dubs this year by 1-27 to 1-4 Pat Gilroy will be gone and it will all become clear why Micko is waving the white flag (or white feather) down in Wicklow before the championship is a week old. 

You are right about one thing, players should not have to play under a manager that has not got a clue.  That leaves two options.  Set a code of practice, a gaa managers driving lisence by way of a standard training course - or - if you don't like the manager do what the Cork hurlers started - go on strike.