Israel Attack Humanitarian Ship, 10 men killed

[give her dixie]

I believe they doctored the tapes.

If you read through the article, Max explains the sequence of events, and how
certain voices are added saying thing they didn't say from this trip.
They used recordings from previous trips, and mixed the into the recording.

If anyone believes they are been honest in any shape or form in their version of
events, then you are been taken for fool.

The PR they employed in the days following the attacks, led everyone into believing
that they were attacked. They are the victim. They are squeeky clean. They are nice people.
They managed to convince a few, but the world sat up and took notice.

Below is an eye witness account from a very good friend of mine, Ibrahim Musaji.
He was on the top deck when they were attacked.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/local/gloucestershire/hi/people_and_places/newsid_8726000/8726472.stm

[Tyrones own]

Ah ffs...you're at it again dotting I's and crossing T's where
there possibly aren't any. If it's all as bad as you claim why the need to
to put tails on everything    We get it already...or atleast we did
If it's not in the titles, it's embedded in the post!

[mylestheslasher]

Ah ffs...you're at it again dotting I's and crossing T's where
there possibly aren't any. If it's all as bad as you claim why the need to
to put tails on everything    We get it already...or atleast we did
If it's not in the titles, it's embedded in the post!

What the f**k are you blathering about now. If you insist on writing garbage on here you might as well put it in a way that we can understand. Now, any chance you could remove the flag of the republic from your avitar. I asked you before, you know, since you have as much love for the concepts of a republic as the Queen of England.

[Arthur_Friend]

Ah ffs...you're at it again dotting I's and crossing T's where
there possibly aren't any. If it's all as bad as you claim why the need to
to put tails on everything    We get it already...or atleast we did
If it's not in the titles, it's embedded in the post!

Alright already 

[Zapatista]

The blockade of Gaza is morally reprehensible and strategically innefective but it does not constitute genocide.
Genocide as in the wiping out of the Israeli people, is the stated policy of Hamas, Hezbollah supported by Iran and Sadam when he was alive.

You mean the Iraeli State? Wiping out a State is no Genocide.

[whatsinaname]

I have followed this thread with interest from the start and i am amnnoyed and saddened at a number of the pro Israeli State posts.These posts tend to trot out the now tired defence of defending our country against Hamas attacks.  They also perpetuate the myth that the Palestinians want to eradicate the Israeli people. 

I would like to add my own thoughts on this issue.  The Palestinian people do not want to eradicate the Israeli people, they want to co-exist with the Israeli's in a fair and democratic state, where they are treated with equality.  They want to eradicate the Israeli state and all that it stands for and create a more pluralist and egalitarian state, where all the children of the country will be cherished.

Why do i make these assertions, well in the mid 90's I studied for six months at the university of Patras, Greece.  Palestinian students, were offered free university education by the Greek government, resulting in a large Palestinian student body, as well as a sizeable body of students from across the Arab world.  During may discussions on the Palestinian issue, never once did anybody express a wish or desire to exterminate the Jewish people, they just wanted a better way of life for them and future generations.  Now before people say that as University students they would be more enlightened in their views, remeber these people were getting free education because their situation was so dire, these were the ordinary people of Gaza and the West Bank.  They just wanted to live in peace. 

Another small point, a friend of mine, also out there studying, when saying cheers, would say hamas ( Greek for cheers is yamas) jokingly.  Each time the Palestinians would have a look of shock and horror and openly rebuke him.  They had very little time for this organisation.

Interestingly talking to these people and students from more hardline states such as Iran and  Iraq and students from Jordan, the bulk of there anger was directed at not Israel but two other states, namely the USA and Britain, one for creating the Palestinian problem and the other for prolonging it.

[seafoid]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide

Genocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group.[1]

[/quote]

Very interesting article on the politics of genocide.

http://www.monthlyreview.org/100501herman-peterson.php

[Main Street]

The blockade of Gaza is morally reprehensible and strategically innefective but it does not constitute genocide.
Genocide as in the wiping out of the Israeli people, is the stated policy of Hamas, Hezbollah supported by Iran and Sadam when he was alive.

You mean the Iraeli State? Wiping out a State is no Genocide.

You could say re Hamas that their goal is to wipe out the State of israel
but in practical terms to them, the State of Israel and Jews are one entity.

Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah leader of Hezbollah "If Jews all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide." (NY Times, May 23, 2004, p. 15, section 2, column 1.) Nasrallah is one of the most admired men in the Muslim and Arab world.

Hashemi Rafsanjani, the former president of Iran, has threatened Israel with nuclear destruction, boasting that an attack would kill as many as five million Jews. Rafsanjani estimated that even if Israel retaliated by dropping its own nuclear bombs, Iran would probably lose only fifteen million people, which he said would be a small "sacrifice" from among the billion Muslims in the world.

The current President of Iran, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, who denies the Nazi Holocaust, but calls for a modern Holocaust that would "wipe Israel off the map."
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSL0261250620080603

It is commonly accepted that Iran backs Hezbollah

Norman Finkelstein
http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.php?pg=4&ar=15 - the last few lines
has said,
"looking back my chief regret is that I wasn't even more forceful in publicly defending Hezbollah against terrorist intimidation and attack."
Noam Chomsky, who works closely with Finkelstein, has said of Finkelstein that he is "a person who can speak with more authority and insight on these topics [Israel and anti-Semitism] than anyone I can think of."

I am no unconditional supporter of Israel but I have an antipathy towards the nonsense that comes out of Finklestein and Chomsky about Israel and the liberator/defenders of the oppressed nonsense about Hezbollah and Hamas.
I accept the State of Israel's right to exist and has the inherent right to defend itself, including (within reason) preemptive strikes and nuclear deterrents.

Are there supporters of the Palestinians in the West who accept Israel's right to exist?
If so, how do they see the State of Israel existing?
The weak theoretical (but widely and blindly accepted) solution of the 2 states existing side by side, is dead in the water. Imo,the chances for peace are better with the 2 a single state with full citizenship and old land issues sorted. The Israeli constitution has not yet been written but it would appear that the secular argument is proving strongest.

[Tyrones own]

The blockade of Gaza is morally reprehensible and strategically innefective but it does not constitute genocide.
Genocide as in the wiping out of the Israeli people, is the stated policy of Hamas, Hezbollah supported by Iran and Sadam when he was alive.

You mean the Iraeli State? Wiping out a State is no Genocide.

Main street touched on it above and I'll ask it again...what becomes of the people
of Israel if the state is gone tomorrow 

[stew]

What is the current death toll from the flotilla murders?

[Arthur_Friend]

The blockade of Gaza is morally reprehensible and strategically innefective but it does not constitute genocide.
Genocide as in the wiping out of the Israeli people, is the stated policy of Hamas, Hezbollah supported by Iran and Sadam when he was alive.

You mean the Iraeli State? Wiping out a State is no Genocide.

You could say re Hamas that their goal is to wipe out the State of israel
but in practical terms to them, the State of Israel and Jews are one entity.

Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah leader of Hezbollah "If Jews all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide." (NY Times, May 23, 2004, p. 15, section 2, column 1.) Nasrallah is one of the most admired men in the Muslim and Arab world.

Hashemi Rafsanjani, the former president of Iran, has threatened Israel with nuclear destruction, boasting that an attack would kill as many as five million Jews. Rafsanjani estimated that even if Israel retaliated by dropping its own nuclear bombs, Iran would probably lose only fifteen million people, which he said would be a small "sacrifice" from among the billion Muslims in the world.

The current President of Iran, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, who denies the Nazi Holocaust, but calls for a modern Holocaust that would "wipe Israel off the map."
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSL0261250620080603

It is commonly accepted that Iran backs Hezbollah

Norman Finkelstein
http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.php?pg=4&ar=15 - the last few lines
has said,
"looking back my chief regret is that I wasn't even more forceful in publicly defending Hezbollah against terrorist intimidation and attack."
Noam Chomsky, who works closely with Finkelstein, has said of Finkelstein that he is "a person who can speak with more authority and insight on these topics [Israel and anti-Semitism] than anyone I can think of."

I am no unconditional supporter of Israel but I have an antipathy towards the nonsense that comes out of Finklestein and Chomsky about Israel and the liberator/defenders of the oppressed nonsense about Hezbollah and Hamas.
I accept the State of Israel's right to exist and has the inherent right to defend itself, including (within reason) preemptive strikes and nuclear deterrents.

Are there supporters of the Palestinians in the West who accept Israel's right to exist?
If so, how do they see the State of Israel existing?
The weak theoretical (but widely and blindly accepted) solution of the 2 states existing side by side, is dead in the water. Imo,the chances for peace are better with the 2 a single state with full citizenship and old land issues sorted. The Israeli constitution has not yet been written but it would appear that the secular argument is proving strongest.

Let's just start with your first point....have you any sources to back up that assertion or is that just your opinion?

[give her dixie]

What is the current death toll from the flotilla murders?

Stew, 9 dead at present, and there are apparently 6 people still missing.

There have been eye witness reports of 4 Palestinians been thrown overboard, however, I havn't
had anyone I know confirm or deny this.

There is also the possibility that they could all be in a hospital somewhere, without any details been released.

There would be the current situation, according to most of my sources.

[give her dixie]

The blockade of Gaza is morally reprehensible and strategically innefective but it does not constitute genocide.
Genocide as in the wiping out of the Israeli people, is the stated policy of Hamas, Hezbollah supported by Iran and Sadam when he was alive.

You mean the Iraeli State? Wiping out a State is no Genocide.

Main street touched on it above and I'll ask it again...what becomes of the people
of Israel if the state is gone tomorrow 

This thread is 27 pages long, and to date, all you have done is attack me, and as of now, you havn't given one single opinion on the attacks.

How about you telling us what you think for a change?

Was Israel right to attack, or wrong?

Were they right to kidnap and assault Irish Citizens, and kidnap their boat in International Waters?

Since you fly the Irish flag in your avatar, maybe you would have an opinion on this?

I'm sure there are a lot of people on here who would like to hear your opinion on this topic?

What about the 19 year old US citizen who was shot 4 times in the head at close range?

What about the fact that the US havn't condemned this murder, or the other 8 murders,
whenever every other country in the world have?

[Tyrones own]

I'm of the honest belief that a better understanding or indeed answers to your seven questions here could be found in the answer to my question above
...if some of ye would step up to the plate
and answer it honestly that is.

And as for attacking you, I like a few others here would like you to put a lid on the hatred you have for Israel when putting forth your facts in this case...surely you understand that you sound no different than Netanyahu and his ilk when you come off this way.

Like I said before, if it's as bad as you make it out to be then I see no reason for propagandizing this disaster with exaggerations, simple facts would be fine as I think we're all old enough here to see it as it is without your ideals piled on top of it!!

[mylestheslasher]

The blockade of Gaza is morally reprehensible and strategically innefective but it does not constitute genocide.
Genocide as in the wiping out of the Israeli people, is the stated policy of Hamas, Hezbollah supported by Iran and Sadam when he was alive.

You mean the Iraeli State? Wiping out a State is no Genocide.

You could say re Hamas that their goal is to wipe out the State of israel
but in practical terms to them, the State of Israel and Jews are one entity.

Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah leader of Hezbollah "If Jews all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide." (NY Times, May 23, 2004, p. 15, section 2, column 1.) Nasrallah is one of the most admired men in the Muslim and Arab world.

Hashemi Rafsanjani, the former president of Iran, has threatened Israel with nuclear destruction, boasting that an attack would kill as many as five million Jews. Rafsanjani estimated that even if Israel retaliated by dropping its own nuclear bombs, Iran would probably lose only fifteen million people, which he said would be a small "sacrifice" from among the billion Muslims in the world.

The current President of Iran, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, who denies the Nazi Holocaust, but calls for a modern Holocaust that would "wipe Israel off the map."
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSL0261250620080603

It is commonly accepted that Iran backs Hezbollah

Norman Finkelstein
http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.php?pg=4&ar=15 - the last few lines
has said,
"looking back my chief regret is that I wasn't even more forceful in publicly defending Hezbollah against terrorist intimidation and attack."
Noam Chomsky, who works closely with Finkelstein, has said of Finkelstein that he is "a person who can speak with more authority and insight on these topics [Israel and anti-Semitism] than anyone I can think of."

I am no unconditional supporter of Israel but I have an antipathy towards the nonsense that comes out of Finklestein and Chomsky about Israel and the liberator/defenders of the oppressed nonsense about Hezbollah and Hamas.
I accept the State of Israel's right to exist and has the inherent right to defend itself, including (within reason) preemptive strikes and nuclear deterrents.

Are there supporters of the Palestinians in the West who accept Israel's right to exist?
If so, how do they see the State of Israel existing?
The weak theoretical (but widely and blindly accepted) solution of the 2 states existing side by side, is dead in the water. Imo,the chances for peace are better with the 2 a single state with full citizenship and old land issues sorted. The Israeli constitution has not yet been written but it would appear that the secular argument is proving strongest.

Well by law and agreements the state of Israel should revert to the 1967 borders. However, Israel never lives up to agreements and continues, even today, to expand its border by stealing land. They constantly rumble about palestinian state and at the same time bit by bit steal more. Have a look at the 67 border as agreed to define the palestinian state and look at where we are at today. You see, Israel is not interested in peace per say, it is interested in bring all the lost jewish people back to a homeland and they don't give 2 fucks who the trample over to achieve this.

Now I don't speak Iranian but there are a lot of scholars out there that claim Ahmadinejad was intentionally mis-translated with regard to his infamous speech about wiping out Israel. Supposedly he want to wipe out the current regime in Israel. I don't know about you but I wouldn't be one bit surprised if the same people that called humanitarian aid workers terrorists and murdered 9 of them would make up such a story.

Finally, I don't believe arabs of the middle east want to wipe out Israel, they want to have equal treatment. They have a nasty aggressive nuclear primed army and flout international law while the like of Iran is under constant threat from the Yanks for doing half of what Israel does. Arabs want fair play I would say.