Israel Attack Humanitarian Ship, 10 men killed

[Myles Na G.]

What other options are there? I don't mean token gestures that'll make a few people feel better about themselves. I mean real options that would hurt Israel without at the same time hurting Ireland even more.

Take your time.

Petition the EU to sanction Israel.

Kick their diplomats out of Ireland for starters, sever all ties with them until they allow much needed aid to reach the people in Gaza.

petition the worlds leaders and try and get hard, biting sanctions in place and tell the yanks that not one plane of theirs will land in Ireland unless they hold the fcukers accountable, thats what they could do.

Any more stupid question Myles??

So, like I said, nothing that will hurt Israel or which won't hurt Ireland even more.
Any more stupid suggestions?

[Hedley Lamarr]

By DAVID T. DUMKE
Israeli arrogance at its best
'To a man with a big hammer, every problem looks like a nail'

It is hard not to conclude from this Israeli action, and also from other Israeli actions in recent years, that the Israeli leadership simply does not care any longer about what anybody thinks. It does not seem to care about what even the United States — its only real friend, even in the choppy era of Obama — thinks," Leon Wieseltier, The New Republic.

The quote above captures the essence of the latest in a long series of tragic events which have marked the endless Arab-Israeli conflict. As an American who has tracked regional issues closely over the past two decades, from inside and outside government, it is hard to foresee a promising path forward — or merely find a silver lining.

The elements of peace all remain on table. All parties know what the outcome of a peace process would be: a two-state solution, a return of the Golan Heights, and full diplomatic relations between the Arab world and Israel. Moreover, after an 8-year hiatus, the United States has a president committed to the peace process, sympathetic to the plight of the Palestinians, and mindful of Israel's security concerns.

Yet sadly, at a time when all parties suffer from exhaustion, are losing — economically, politically, or spiritually — ground, and should recognize the golden opportunity before them, we face a new round of self-inflicted setbacks which makes peace increasingly illusive.

To be certain, there is plenty of blame to go around. No party has acted in to its fullest in the interests of peace. Pettiness, recrimination, and domestic politics have surely played a negative role in the calculations of each party in contributing to today's acrimonious climate.

Yet Israel's actions this week set a standard for audaciousness. While the international community has long since concluded the humanitarian situation in Gaza is unacceptable, one can certainly debate the merits of the Gaza blockade — and the invasion which preceded it — on political grounds. But acting well outside the bounds of international norms, if not laws, as Israel has done since the Netanyahu government gained power, is a truly troubling development.

On its face, the attack on the flotilla seems illegal because Israel conducted it in international waters. This does not include additional considerations, like proportionality, the likely international reaction, and observing diplomatic tact as it relates to key partners such as Turkey, Egypt, and the United States.

The flotilla itself was obviously threatening to the Israeli government.  It presented a complex political problem — the effectiveness of the blockade, the use of nonviolent resistance, and the increasing visibility of international activists to highlight Palestinian suffering.

But responding to the threat — deploying elite military forces to blunt what was, without questioning the motives of the flotilla, essentially a humanitarian mission — with blunt force only highlights Israeli weakness. Israel seems to have no solution except force. Or, as noted by prominent Israeli writer Amos Oz, "to a man with a big hammer, says the proverb, every problem looks like a nail."

Could Israel have failed to calculate the likely reaction of Turkey? Even without violence, storming Turkish-flagged ships in international water would surely sour relations. While relations with Ankara have steadily been souring of late, did Israel not consider, or care, that this act would further alienate the one Muslim nation which could be considered an ally? The lack of care seems particularly troubling to a nation which is increasingly isolated.

Of course, the incident also has implications on Egypt, the most populous Arab nation and the first to reach a peace agreement with Israel. Egypt's decision to seal the Gaza border already came at a price to Cairo — it remains a deeply unpopular decision within the Arab world and among the Egyptian public, and emboldens critics —Islamist and secular alike — of the Mubarak government.

Coming at a time when the US is already pressing Cairo to democratize, it would seem the most popular critique of the government in this, an election year, would be to attack Mubarak's pro-peace policy — which includes respecting the Gaza blockade until a Hamas-Fatah reconciliation process can be completed.

Israel would also have been wise to note the recent rise in Turkey's regional popularity. Much of this is attributable to its increasing diplomatic activism, most notably its hostility, despite friendly relations, to Israel's treatment of the Palestinians.

And then there is the United States. In recent months, Israelis have observed with growing alarm the apparent deterioration of relations between the Obama administration and Israeli government — highlighted with the embarrassment of Vice President Joseph Biden who was welcomed to Israel with the announcement of new, sensitive settlement construction in Jerusalem. At the time of the incident, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu was en route to what was seen as a high stakes, fence-mending visit to President Obama.

Obama is supportive of Israel, yet has made it clear he values America's relations with the entirety of the Arab world and is concerned about the US regional position as it wages war in Iraq, Afghanistan, and on "terror." Obama's support of regional nonproliferation is aimed at Iran, yet he has recognized too that Israel must enter the NPT agreement in order to best isolate Tehran. On the peace process, he is growing increasingly impatient over what some of his advisors believe is Israeli provocation — supported by Netanyahu.

Lastly, did Israel consider the international consequences of the raid — which were easily foreseeable? Clearly, Israel has concluded that the international community is against it and thus has opted — as it did in Gaza, with the Goldstone report, and in the Dubai assassination of a Hamas operative — to ignore the established rules.

Again, in assessing the Arab-Israeli conflict no party is blameless.  But when Israel opts out of international norms, ignores its most important partners, and chooses force to meet any threat — violent or nonviolent — it seems the peace process has become much more problematic.

[Hedley Lamarr]

By URI AVNERY | ARAB NEWS
Kill a Turk and rest
ON the high seas, outside territorial waters, the ship was stopped by the navy. The commandos stormed it. Hundreds of people on the deck resisted, the soldiers used force. Some of the passengers were killed, scores injured. The ship was brought into harbor, the passengers were taken off by force. The world saw them walking on the quay, men and women, young and old, all of them worn out, one after another, each being marched between two soldiers...

The ship was called "Exodus 1947." It left France in the hope of breaking the British blockade, which was imposed to prevent ships loaded with Holocaust survivors from reaching the shores of Palestine. If it had been allowed to reach the country, the illegal immigrants would have come ashore and the British would have sent them to detention camps in Cyprus, as they had done before. Nobody would have taken any notice of the episode for more than two days.

But the person in charge was Ernest Bevin, a Labour Party leader, an arrogant, rude and power-loving British minister. He was not about to let a bunch of Jews dictate to him. He decided to teach them a lesson the entire world would witness. "This is a provocation!" he exclaimed, and of course he was right. The main aim was indeed to create a provocation, in order to draw the eyes of the world to the British blockade.

What followed is well known: the episode dragged on and on, one stupidity led to another, the whole world sympathized with the passengers. But the British did not give in and paid the price. A heavy price.

Many believe that the "Exodus" incident was the turning point in the struggle for the creation of the State of Israel. Britain collapsed under the weight of international condemnation and decided to give up its mandate over Palestine. There were, of course, many more weighty reasons for this decision, but the "Exodus" proved to be the straw that broke the camel's back.

I AM not the only one who was reminded of this episode this week. Actually, it was almost impossible not to be reminded of it, especially for those of us who lived in Palestine at the time and witnessed it.

There are, of course, important differences. Then the passengers were Holocaust survivors, this time they were peace activists from all over the world. But then and now the world saw heavily armed soldiers brutally attack unarmed passengers, who resist with everything that comes to hand, sticks and bare hands. Then and now it happened on the high seas — 40 km from the shore then, 65 km now.

In retrospect, the British behavior throughout the affair seems incredibly stupid. But Bevin was no fool, and the British officers who commanded the action were not nincompoops. After all, they had just finished a World War II on the winning side.

If they behaved with complete folly from beginning to end, it was the result of arrogance, insensitivity and boundless contempt for world public opinion.

Ehud Barak is the Israeli Bevin. He is not a fool, either, nor are our top brass. But they are responsible for a chain of acts of folly, the disastrous implications of which are hard to assess. Former minister and present commentator Yossi Sarid called the ministerial "committee of seven," which decides on security matters, "seven idiots" — and I must protest. It is an insult to idiots.

The preparations for the flotilla went on for more than a year. Hundreds of e-mail messages went back and forth. I myself received many dozens. There was no secret. Everything was out in the open.

There was a lot of time for all our political and military institutions to prepare for the approach of the ships. The politician consulted. The soldiers trained. The diplomats reported. The intelligence people did their job.

Nothing helped. All the decisions were wrong from the first moment to this moment. And it's not yet the end.

The idea of a flotilla as a means to break the blockade borders on genius. It placed the Israeli government on the horns of a dilemma — the choice between several alternatives, all of them bad. Every general hopes to get his opponent into such a situation.

The alternatives were:

1. To let the flotilla reach Gaza without hindrance. The Cabinet secretary supported this option. That would have led to the end of the blockade, because after this flotilla more and larger ones would have come.

2. To stop the ships in territorial waters, inspect their cargo and make sure they were not carrying weapons or "terrorists," then let them continue on their way. That would have aroused some vague protests in the world but upheld the principle of a blockade.

3. To capture them on the high seas and bring them to Ashdod, risking a face-to-face battle with activists on board.

As our governments have always done, when faced with the choice between several bad alternatives, the Netanyahu government chose the worst.

Anyone who followed the preparations as reported in the media could have foreseen that they would lead to people being killed and injured. One does not storm a Turkish ship and expect cute little girls to present one with flowers. The Turks are not known as people who give in easily.

The orders given to the forces and made public included the three fateful words: "at any cost." Every soldier knows what these three terrible words mean. Moreover, on the list of objectives, the consideration for the passengers appeared only in third place, after safeguarding the safety of the soldiers and fulfilling the task.

If Benjamin Netanyahu, Ehud Barak, the Chief of Staff and the commander of the navy did not understand that this would lead to killing and wounding people, then it must be concluded — even by those who were reluctant  to consider this until now — that they are grossly incompetent. They must be told, in the immortal words of Oliver Cromwell to Parliament: "You have sat too long for any good you have been doing lately... Depart, I say; and let us have done with you. In the name of God, go!"

This event points again to one of the most serious aspects of the situation: we live in a bubble, in a kind of mental ghetto, which cuts us off and prevents us from seeing another reality, the one perceived by the rest of the world. A psychiatrist might judge this to be the symptom of a severe mental problem.

The propaganda of the government and the army tells a simple story: our heroic soldiers, determined and sensitive, the elite of the elite, descended on the ship in order "to talk" and were attacked by a wild and violent crowd. Official spokesmen repeated again and again the word "lynching."

On the first day, almost all the Israeli media accepted this. After all, it is clear that we, the Jews, are the victims. Always. That applies to Jewish soldiers, too. True, we storm a foreign ship at sea, but turn at once into victims who have no choice but to defend ourselves against violent and incited anti-Semites.

It is impossible not to be reminded of the classic Jewish joke about the Jewish mother in Russia taking leave of her son, who has been called up to serve the Czar in the war against Turkey. "Don't overexert yourself'" she implores him, "Kill a Turk and rest. Kill another Turk and rest again..."

"But mother," the son interrupts, "What if the Turk kills me?"

"You?" exclaims the mother, "But why? What have you done to him?"

To any normal person, this may sound crazy. Heavily armed soldiers of an elite commando unit board a ship on the high seas in the middle of the night, from the sea and from the air — and they are the victims?

But there is a grain of truth there: they are the victims of arrogant and incompetent commanders, irresponsible politicians and the media fed by them. And, actually, of the Israeli public, since most of the people voted for this government or for the opposition, which is no different.

The "Exodus" affair was repeated, but with a switch of roles. Now we are the British.

Somewhere, a new Leon Uris is planning to write his next book, "Exodus 2010." A new Otto Preminger is planning a film that will become a blockbuster. A new Paul Newman will star in it — after all, there is no shortage of talented Turkish actors.

More than years ago, Thomas Jefferson declared that every nation must act with a "decent respect to the opinions of mankind." Israeli leaders have never accepted the wisdom of this maxim. They adhere to the dictum of David Ben-Gurion: "It is not important what the Gentiles say, it is important what the Jews do." Perhaps he assumed that the Jews would not act foolishly.

Making enemies of the Turks is more than foolish. For decades, Turkey has been our closest ally in the region, much more close than is generally known. Turkey could play, in the future, an important role as a mediator between Israel and the Arab-Muslim world, between Israel and Syria, and, yes, even between Israel and Iran. Perhaps we have succeeded now in uniting the Turkish people against us — and some say that this is the only matter on which the Turks are now united.

This is chapter 2 of "Cast Lead." Then we aroused most countries in the world against us, shocked our few friends and gladdened our enemies. Now we have done it again, and perhaps with even greater success. World public opinion is turning against us.

This is a slow process. It resembles the accumulation of water behind a dam. The water rises slowly, quietly, and the change is hardly noticeable. But when it reaches a critical level, the dam bursts and the disaster is upon us. We are steadily approaching this point.

"Kill a Turk and rest," the mother says in the joke. Our government does not even rest. It seems that they will not stop until they have made enemies of the last of our friends.

[Arthur_Friend]

What other options are there? I don't mean token gestures that'll make a few people feel better about themselves. I mean real options that would hurt Israel without at the same time hurting Ireland even more.

Take your time.

Petition the EU to sanction Israel.

Kick their diplomats out of Ireland for starters, sever all ties with them until they allow much needed aid to reach the people in Gaza.

petition the worlds leaders and try and get hard, biting sanctions in place and tell the yanks that not one plane of theirs will land in Ireland unless they hold the fcukers accountable, thats what they could do.

Any more stupid question Myles??

So, like I said, nothing that will hurt Israel or which won't hurt Ireland even more.
Any more stupid suggestions?

Those were some nice constraints you put on there Myles as to what you consider "real options" for Ireland as an alternative to your fatuous suggestion of declaring war on Israel.

The fact is there is nothing Ireland can do which will directly hurt Israel. If Israel doesn't give a toss about angering Turkey there is not much Ireland can do that would concern them. However that does not mean that Ireland should do nothing and that there are no "real options".

Kicking out their diplomats and severing all ties as Stew suggested would be a good start. Sure Israel won't give a toss but it will turn up the pressure on them internationally if someone stood up and said we're not happy with what you are doing so get the f**k out of our country. As I understand it Israel wants to have a favourable relationship with the EU. It wouldn't look too good if it had no diplomatic relations with one of the member states.

Or Ireland could just continue to eat shit and say nothing as an aggressive nation forges its passports and hijacks its ships etc. etc.

[Myles Na G.]

Severing diplomatic ties would do little other than to inconvenience Irish tourists and business people travelling in the region. Israel doesn't give a flying fcuk about EU opinion - they also forged the passports of bigger EU nations than Ireland without caring too much for the consequences. Some of those detained on the flotilla were British, German, French and Swedish - all bigger players on the world stage than Ireland.

[blast05]

Why haven't the activists diverted their aid to say Sudan or Zimbabwe or even North Korea where there are undisputed food shortages ?
And given that they are insistent on their current course of action, then why didn't they just go to the Israeli port .... they knew full well that there was no way the Israelis were going to let them go ahead on their course of action so what was the purpose of going ahead with it other than to try and feel great about themselves by gathering even more media publiciity ? Its a little pathetic actually.

Yeah, it is pathetic to think that people would dare to help 1.7 million people who are suffering a slow Genocide.

They should know better.....

If you are that concerned for Sudan, and North Korea, why don't you do something?
I would support you if you were to do something other than talk about it......................

So the population of  Gaza is 1.7 million ?
Can you back up your claims of a genocide actually taking place ?

I send my few bob on to Concern every month plus let them claim tax back on it and leave it to them.

Incidentally, how would you propose Israel defend itself against Hamas ?

Aren't you a great lad sending your few bob to concern. I have a big gold star sticker here for you.
You are so ill informed it is scary. Even worse, obviously knowing nothing of the history of the middle east you still feel that you can come on here and write shite about it. Perhaps you are Ian O Doherty?

ISrael defend itself against Hamas. Let me give you a simple analogy (your a simple sort of guy I'd say). Israel was planted in this region and all those who happened to have left their homes on a certain night found that they could never go home again. Some that did find a way back found Israelis living in their homes. Naturally there was resistance to this - labelled terrorism by Israel and her friends. That wasn't enough for Israel who went on to steal land from others and plant their people there. We had a similar ethic cleansing in Ireland called the plantations - you may have heard about it. Israel is armed to the teeth and has nuclear bombs. Israel continues to steal palestinian land and any token resistance is met with shite about "we must defend ourselves". Israel is the aggressor here, it is simple to see. Unless of course you are stupid enough to swallow the Israel military and government press releases which are spin and lies 99% of the time. If you are that stupid then there is no point me trying to inform you.

Ah FFS, will you get off your high horse and don't be such a plank.
Can you address the question - how would you propose Israel defend itself in the region when you have Hamas who does not even recognise the right of the Israeli state to exist ?
And "give her dixie" ...... have you any facts to back up your claims of genocide ?

[red hander]

See The Pixies have cancelled a gig in Tel Aviv next week in protest at the apartheid regime's murder tactics ... more of the same needed

[Myles Na G.]

See The Pixies have cancelled a gig in Tel Aviv next week in protest at the apartheid regime's murder tactics ... more of the same needed

I thought the idea was to punish them, not reward them.

[give her dixie]

Why haven't the activists diverted their aid to say Sudan or Zimbabwe or even North Korea where there are undisputed food shortages ?
And given that they are insistent on their current course of action, then why didn't they just go to the Israeli port .... they knew full well that there was no way the Israelis were going to let them go ahead on their course of action so what was the purpose of going ahead with it other than to try and feel great about themselves by gathering even more media publiciity ? Its a little pathetic actually.

Yeah, it is pathetic to think that people would dare to help 1.7 million people who are suffering a slow Genocide.

They should know better.....

If you are that concerned for Sudan, and North Korea, why don't you do something?
I would support you if you were to do something other than talk about it......................

So the population of  Gaza is 1.7 million ?
Can you back up your claims of a genocide actually taking place ?

I send my few bob on to Concern every month plus let them claim tax back on it and leave it to them.

Incidentally, how would you propose Israel defend itself against Hamas ?

Aren't you a great lad sending your few bob to concern. I have a big gold star sticker here for you.
You are so ill informed it is scary. Even worse, obviously knowing nothing of the history of the middle east you still feel that you can come on here and write shite about it. Perhaps you are Ian O Doherty?

ISrael defend itself against Hamas. Let me give you a simple analogy (your a simple sort of guy I'd say). Israel was planted in this region and all those who happened to have left their homes on a certain night found that they could never go home again. Some that did find a way back found Israelis living in their homes. Naturally there was resistance to this - labelled terrorism by Israel and her friends. That wasn't enough for Israel who went on to steal land from others and plant their people there. We had a similar ethic cleansing in Ireland called the plantations - you may have heard about it. Israel is armed to the teeth and has nuclear bombs. Israel continues to steal palestinian land and any token resistance is met with shite about "we must defend ourselves". Israel is the aggressor here, it is simple to see. Unless of course you are stupid enough to swallow the Israel military and government press releases which are spin and lies 99% of the time. If you are that stupid then there is no point me trying to inform you.

Ah FFS, will you get off your high horse and don't be such a plank.
Can you address the question - how would you propose Israel defend itself in the region when you have Hamas who does not even recognise the right of the Israeli state to exist ?
And "give her dixie" ...... have you any facts to back up your claims of genocide ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide

Genocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group.[1]

While a precise definition varies among genocide scholars, a legal definition is found in the 1948 United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (CPPCG). Article 2 of this convention defines genocide as "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."


As you can see, under this defination, what is happening in Gaza would constitute Genocide.

Starving 1.7 million people, forcing them off their land, bombing and killing thme on a regular basis, etc,etc.

If you require any futher examples, have a read through some of my stories from Gaza, or read just about any human rights groups reports and findings.

Hope that clears that up for you

[longrunsthefox]

We could do without Sean Brady calling on Israel to lift the blockade. The man is totally tainted and in cuckoo land.

[Zapatista]

Ah FFS, will you get off your high horse and don't be such a plank.
Can you address the question - how would you propose Israel defend itself in the region when you have Hamas who does not even recognise the right of the Israeli state to exist ?

It's quite easy to defend yourself against Hamas' belief that Israel don't have the right to exist. You get reconition from Countries across the world and exist. Something that Israel have done and continue to do. Much like Northern Ireland exists despite the many who believe it has no right to exist.

[mylestheslasher]

Why haven't the activists diverted their aid to say Sudan or Zimbabwe or even North Korea where there are undisputed food shortages ?
And given that they are insistent on their current course of action, then why didn't they just go to the Israeli port .... they knew full well that there was no way the Israelis were going to let them go ahead on their course of action so what was the purpose of going ahead with it other than to try and feel great about themselves by gathering even more media publiciity ? Its a little pathetic actually.

Yeah, it is pathetic to think that people would dare to help 1.7 million people who are suffering a slow Genocide.

They should know better.....

If you are that concerned for Sudan, and North Korea, why don't you do something?
I would support you if you were to do something other than talk about it......................

So the population of  Gaza is 1.7 million ?
Can you back up your claims of a genocide actually taking place ?

I send my few bob on to Concern every month plus let them claim tax back on it and leave it to them.

Incidentally, how would you propose Israel defend itself against Hamas ?

Aren't you a great lad sending your few bob to concern. I have a big gold star sticker here for you.
You are so ill informed it is scary. Even worse, obviously knowing nothing of the history of the middle east you still feel that you can come on here and write shite about it. Perhaps you are Ian O Doherty?

ISrael defend itself against Hamas. Let me give you a simple analogy (your a simple sort of guy I'd say). Israel was planted in this region and all those who happened to have left their homes on a certain night found that they could never go home again. Some that did find a way back found Israelis living in their homes. Naturally there was resistance to this - labelled terrorism by Israel and her friends. That wasn't enough for Israel who went on to steal land from others and plant their people there. We had a similar ethic cleansing in Ireland called the plantations - you may have heard about it. Israel is armed to the teeth and has nuclear bombs. Israel continues to steal palestinian land and any token resistance is met with shite about "we must defend ourselves". Israel is the aggressor here, it is simple to see. Unless of course you are stupid enough to swallow the Israel military and government press releases which are spin and lies 99% of the time. If you are that stupid then there is no point me trying to inform you.

Ah FFS, will you get off your high horse and don't be such a plank.
Can you address the question - how would you propose Israel defend itself in the region when you have Hamas who does not even recognise the right of the Israeli state to exist ?
And "give her dixie" ...... have you any facts to back up your claims of genocide ?

I'm on a high horse because I bothered to understand the situation instead of believing what Fox and sky news tell me? I suppose I should be like you and just accept the lazy journalism that comes my way. My answer to your original question still stands but maybe you couldn't understand. The question is how do Palestinians in Gaza protect themselves from the Israeli army armed with the most powerful weapons in the world and them not even with a bag of cement? Ask the international community for help - tried that, waste of time. Negotiate with Israel - check back through all the agreements brokered and the breaking of them by Israel. Fire some token missiles - maybe not but what else can they do.

[give her dixie]

The should do what the Israeli's have been looking them to do for 62 years now.....

Pack up their stuff, hand over their houses and land, and join the millions of other
Palestinian refugee's worldwide.

Only then will the genocide stop......................

[Gaoth Dobhair Abu]

Well we could start by kicking out the Israeli ambassador and then boycott Israeli products in our shops and supermarkets.
Small gesture but would be reported around the world and may encourage other nations to follow suit, from small acorns grow big oak trees.
I for one have stopped buying Israeli produce.

[blast05]

Why haven't the activists diverted their aid to say Sudan or Zimbabwe or even North Korea where there are undisputed food shortages ?
And given that they are insistent on their current course of action, then why didn't they just go to the Israeli port .... they knew full well that there was no way the Israelis were going to let them go ahead on their course of action so what was the purpose of going ahead with it other than to try and feel great about themselves by gathering even more media publiciity ? Its a little pathetic actually.

Yeah, it is pathetic to think that people would dare to help 1.7 million people who are suffering a slow Genocide.

They should know better.....

If you are that concerned for Sudan, and North Korea, why don't you do something?
I would support you if you were to do something other than talk about it......................

So the population of  Gaza is 1.7 million ?
Can you back up your claims of a genocide actually taking place ?

I send my few bob on to Concern every month plus let them claim tax back on it and leave it to them.

Incidentally, how would you propose Israel defend itself against Hamas ?

Aren't you a great lad sending your few bob to concern. I have a big gold star sticker here for you.
You are so ill informed it is scary. Even worse, obviously knowing nothing of the history of the middle east you still feel that you can come on here and write shite about it. Perhaps you are Ian O Doherty?

ISrael defend itself against Hamas. Let me give you a simple analogy (your a simple sort of guy I'd say). Israel was planted in this region and all those who happened to have left their homes on a certain night found that they could never go home again. Some that did find a way back found Israelis living in their homes. Naturally there was resistance to this - labelled terrorism by Israel and her friends. That wasn't enough for Israel who went on to steal land from others and plant their people there. We had a similar ethic cleansing in Ireland called the plantations - you may have heard about it. Israel is armed to the teeth and has nuclear bombs. Israel continues to steal palestinian land and any token resistance is met with shite about "we must defend ourselves". Israel is the aggressor here, it is simple to see. Unless of course you are stupid enough to swallow the Israel military and government press releases which are spin and lies 99% of the time. If you are that stupid then there is no point me trying to inform you.

Ah FFS, will you get off your high horse and don't be such a plank.
Can you address the question - how would you propose Israel defend itself in the region when you have Hamas who does not even recognise the right of the Israeli state to exist ?
And "give her dixie" ...... have you any facts to back up your claims of genocide ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide

Genocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group.[1]

While a precise definition varies among genocide scholars, a legal definition is found in the 1948 United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (CPPCG). Article 2 of this convention defines genocide as "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."


As you can see, under this defination, what is happening in Gaza would constitute Genocide.

Starving 1.7 million people, forcing them off their land, bombing and killing thme on a regular basis, etc,etc.

If you require any futher examples, have a read through some of my stories from Gaza, or read just about any human rights groups reports and findings.

Hope that clears that up for you

A definition of genocide - gee thanks.... and you use this as the argument to back your opinion that genocide is taking place ? I don't see the facts. For me its simple ....... if there was even a hint of an argument that could be made to back up the opinion that genocide is taking place, then you would have those beacons of morality and good governance in Sudan and Pakistan (among many others) demanding that the UN Human Rights Council recognise this .... Sudan and Pakistan being the 2 members of the UN Human Rights Council that proposed the resolution to condemn Israel for the attack on the flotilla (the hypocrisy is incredible as it is from at least a dozen other countries of the 47 that make up the UN HRC buts that a seperate thread). Neither Sudan or Pakistan have looked for this to the best of my knowledge nor has anyone else (please correct me if i am wrong on this). and by the way, the population of Gaza is about 3 times lower than what you are suggesting.

Don't get me wrong on all this .... i empathise greatly with the people of Gaza but those bastards in Hamas are creating their problems. Why for example have they not yet allowed all the aid from the flotilla - which is sitting in trucks on the border - into Gaza ? Israelis of course are guilty of many crimes and to be honest i think none of us really know what is going on cos its as much a war of propoganda as anything else (mylesthelasher seems to know everything definitively though)

I still haven't seen a suggestion of how Israel should defend itself as i think its reasonable to assume that there would be a greater amount of rockets fired if there were open borders into Gaza (of course i fully expect to be accused of the same crap as before of depending on Fox News for forming this opinion).... and Zaptista, i didn't ask for how they defend themselves against Hamas no recognising their right to exist.