Tyrone v Down USFC Semi Final Sat 19th June

[Lamh Dhearg Alba]

Linking up is passing. I've no doubt they were cruicial but the system was built including them and not around them. Other systems can work around other players with other qualities. To use those stats to justify the role is pushing it a little.

Of course are other systems but in the style of play Mickey Harte has used in his time as Tyrone manager the role of playmaker has been pivotal.  If he has indeed found a system where we dont somebody in the same role then great but there is no evidence that he has, or that the general system has changed, at this stage.

[Fuzzman]

Just read that Down team. Am surprised how many of them I don't know

I see PJ is back in the subs. Glad to see that as really rated him
If the Down team line out with Benny, Gordon & Marty Clarke all in FF line ( I know Benny is 12) then our FB line could be in for a tough aul day of it unless Block & Joey are back there to help

If Down MF come out on top and kick the ball in fast to their FF line we could be in trouble alright. I'd say if we do see that you could see McCarron coming in early for either corner back though I have been impressed with Carlin this year. I've not seen enough of Swift to convince me yet but I think we were all surprised that Davey & Ricey got the chop and he didn't.

I think having a good "Playmaker" certainly adds to the game. A player who is composed on the ball, has great vision and can see space and possible runs and can control the play is worth a lot. Its like having an extra weapon in your armoury that can unlock defences. The way McGuigan used to dummy one way and do the opposite or like give you the eyes on direction but fist it the other way. These small things can lead to great passes and opens up play for your score takers. I'd say Mugsy especially but also SoN much prefer playing with a good playmaker who knows how they like the ball played in and when they can come running out for a pass and then swivel and get it played in behind. I for one think McCullagh has this over Penrose but Penrose's workrate and excellent tackling back will win out most of the time.

BTW, was the reason why this game was scheduled for a Sat evening?
Quite a lot of people I know aren't going to it because its on Friday evening.
Will it be mad busy there near Asda on a Sat at that time?

[nrico2006]

I don't think it's a major concern at all. Playmakers are nothing more than good passers of the ball. We're fine with who we have there.

Brian McGuigan's role in 2003 and 2005 was a lot more than being a good passer of the ball! His linking of the play was absolutely crucial to the success of that Tyrone system. His absence in 2006 and 2007 was a huge loss. No coincidence that Tyrone were back near their best in 2008 when McCullagh stepped up and took on a similar role in the team. We didnt have anybody doing it last summer and it showed.

Completely agree LDA.  I have been miffed by the absence of CMC of late, he was key to Tyrones success in 2008.  As mentioned, Cavanagh does not really bring the Full Forward line into the game the way a Number 11 should.  I don't think its any coincidence that any time Sean has played at CHF he has not really shone.  It is noticeable from watching Tyrones Championship games last year and the one so far this year that the quality of ball to the Full Forward line is not great, with the like of SON in particular not receiving great service.  I was hoping that someone like Peter Harte would be tried in a playmaker role as he seems to tick all the boxes, and maybe he will roam about the half forward line on Saturday night.  Glad to see him in the team and hopefully Coney gets a run out as he is another player with great vision although he does try the audacious pass a bit too often but when it comes off its a joy to watch.

[loughshore lad]

From what I have saw of Peter Harte I dont think he is a future centre half forward in the mould of Brian McGuigan.  His stregths appear to be his pace, ability to take people on and beat them as opposed to bringing other people into the game.

[Mid Down Gael]

From downgaa.net

1    B Mac an Bheatha    Brendan McVeigh    An Ríocht
2    D Ó Runaidh    Declan Rooney    Boireann
3    B Mac Árdghail    Brendan McArdle    Eanach Chluáin
4    D Ó Raifeartaigh    Damian Rafferty    Seamrogaí an Íuir
5    K Mac Thiarnáin    Kevin McKernan    Boireann
6    S Mac Colgan    James Colgan    An Ríocht
7    C Ó Gairbhith    Conor Garvey    Droichead Mhaigh Éo
8    A Mac Ruairí    Ambrose Rogers    Cloch Fhada
9    K Mac an Rí    Kalum King    Áth Bhriain
10    D Ó hAodha    Daniel Hughes    Sabhaill
11    M Mac Póilín     Mark Poland    Cloch Fhada
12    B Ó Coltáir    Brendan Coulter    Droichead Mhaigh Éo
13    C Mag Fhinn    Conor Maginn    Áth Bhriain
14    D Mac Mhuirneacháin    Dan Gordon    Loch an Oileáin
15    M Ó Cléirigh    Martin Clarke    An Ríocht
16    D Alder    Declan Alder    Ceathrú Aodha Dhuibh
17    P Mac Cumascaigh    Paul McComiskey    Dún Droma
18    S Ó Cléirigh    John Clarke    An Ríocht
19    C Mac Laibheartaigh    Conor Laverty    Cill Chua
20    R Mac Muireartaigh    Ronan Murtagh    Baile Cholmáin
21    S Ó Cearnaigh    Stephen Kearney    Sabhaill
22    G Mac Artáin    Gerard McCartan    Boireann
23    M Ó Deoráin    Mark Doran    Cloch Fhada
24    P Mac Giolla Phádraig    Peter Fitzpatrick    Baile Mhairtín
25    D Ó hÁgáin    Darren O'Hagan    Cluain Daimh
26    A Ó Cearra    Aidan Carr    Cluain Dáimh
27    I Mac an Bhreithiún    Jason Brown    Cluain Daimh

Strong Down team named. Our forward line looks very potent and we have great strength and depth in this department being able to call on John Clarke, Murtagh, Laverty and McComiskey if needed. Great to have Ambrose back along side big Kallum. I really fancy our chances but i think it will boil down to how McArdle copes with the brilliant ONeill. long direct ball to our full forward line will cause the Tyrone defence problems even though Gormley and Joe McMahon will surely be used as sweepers.

[Fuzzman]

My attitude has changed since the teams were named
Both sets of fans seem to be quite optimistic and I'd say last week I was very confident but now I'm beginning to get a bit fearful.

I think it comes down to the amount of possession we get in around the middle as ever
We know we have the forwards to do damage and so it will probably come down to how we can break even around the middle third and stop the goal fest of 2003.

Tyrone by 4

[Tommo2]

Just read that Down team. Am surprised how many of them I don't know

I see PJ is back in the subs. Glad to see that as really rated him
If the Down team line out with Benny, Gordon & Marty Clarke all in FF line ( I know Benny is 12) then our FB line could be in for a tough aul day of it unless Block & Joey are back there to help

If Down MF come out on top and kick the ball in fast to their FF line we could be in trouble alright. I'd say if we do see that you could see McCarron coming in early for either corner back though I have been impressed with Carlin this year. I've not seen enough of Swift to convince me yet but I think we were all surprised that Davey & Ricey got the chop and he didn't.
I think having a good "Playmaker" certainly adds to the game. A player who is composed on the ball, has great vision and can see space and possible runs and can control the play is worth a lot. Its like having an extra weapon in your armoury that can unlock defences. The way McGuigan used to dummy one way and do the opposite or like give you the eyes on direction but fist it the other way. These small things can lead to great passes and opens up play for your score takers. I'd say Mugsy especially but also SoN much prefer playing with a good playmaker who knows how they like the ball played in and when they can come running out for a pass and then swivel and get it played in behind. I for one think McCullagh has this over Penrose but Penrose's workrate and excellent tackling back will win out most of the time.

BTW, was the reason why this game was scheduled for a Sat evening?
Quite a lot of people I know aren't going to it because its on Friday evening.
Will it be mad busy there near Asda on a Sat at that time?

What did Swift do to deserve the chop ahead of Davey or Ricey. Did he not keep his man scoreless the last day against Antrim. I believe Tomas McCann was also substituted. Both Ricey and Davey were poor the last day and as a result were taken off. Surely you would not advocate retaining these 2 players over Swift on current form.

I see some of the "Davey Bashers" are still not happy as Red Sean has not got his place. Maybe these "Davey Bashers" are in fact "Harte Bashers".

I think Peter Harte will be a better half back. His performances for the minors a couple of years ago at half back were great. Brilliant reader of the game and can moe forward with pace.

[Zapatista]

Of course are other systems but in the style of play Mickey Harte has used in his time as Tyrone manager the role of playmaker has been pivotal.  If he has indeed found a system where we dont somebody in the same role then great but there is no evidence that he has, or that the general system has changed, at this stage.

Contrary to popular belief football wasn't invented in 03. We were blessed with McGUigan and then McCullagh but if they aren't making the starting 15 then you need to do something else. By the sounds of it McGuigan is the only man who can pass and hold up a ball in Tyrone.

We all know MH doesn't always think inside the box. Everything has changed. It changed pre 2003 and has been changing since.

I don't like the idea that a person must be identified as a playmaker similar to a person being identified as a goalkeeper. It's not essential. If a good playmaker is there then it's only another option it's not a requirement.

[Fuzzman]

I personally haven't saw enough of Swift to comment on how good or bad he is
He seemed OK v Antrim and I agree better than Ricey and Davey
A lot of people on here seemed to think it would be Block in and Swift out

I suppose I just thought MCCarron was a better option and seems maybe taller and stronger for the Down FF line but time will tell

I for one agree that we're better with Peter Harte in and I'd say him & Joey will be swapping a lot in that wing anyways.

[Zapatista]

I personally haven't saw enough of Swift to comment on how good or bad he is
He seemed OK v Antrim and I agree better than Ricey and Davey
A lot of people on here seemed to think it would be Block in and Swift out

I suppose I just thought MCCarron was a better option and seems maybe taller and stronger for the Down FF line but time will tell

I for one agree that we're better with Peter Harte in and I'd say him & Joey will be swapping a lot in that wing anyways.

It would only be very slightly.

[Lamh Dhearg Alba]

Contrary to popular belief football wasn't invented in 03. We were blessed with McGUigan and then McCullagh but if they aren't making the starting 15 then you need to do something else. By the sounds of it McGuigan is the only man who can pass and hold up a ball in Tyrone.

We all know MH doesn't always think inside the box. Everything has changed. It changed pre 2003 and has been changing since.

I don't like the idea that a person must be identified as a playmaker similar to a person being identified as a goalkeeper. It's not essential. If a good playmaker is there then it's only another option it's not a requirement.

Who suggested it was ? The fact that the 3 All-Irelands won by Tyrone were in years when we had somebody floating around and linking the whole system together is IMO pretty conclusive proof of the importance of that role in Mickey's system. As important as the Dooher role. Players are roaming all over the place and it has needed somebody to link it all up. There might well be somebody else in Tyrone who can do it but they havent shown it so far. And perhaps Mickey can make the whole thing work without somebody in that role, but he hasnt managed it so far.

Agree with loughshore lad too, Peter Harte looks like a great prospecft and is worth his place but Im not convinced he is in the McGuigan/McCullagh mould.

[orangeman]

How will Down v Tyrone minors go ?


Any views on the minor match ?


Who would be favourites ?.

[Zapatista]

Who suggested it was ? The fact that the 3 All-Irelands won by Tyrone were in years when we had somebody floating around and linking the whole system together is IMO pretty conclusive proof of the importance of that role in Mickey's system. As important as the Dooher role. Players are roaming all over the place and it has needed somebody to link it all up. There might well be somebody else in Tyrone who can do it but they havent shown it so far. And perhaps Mickey can make the whole thing work without somebody in that role, but he hasnt managed it so far.

It isn't pretty conclusive anything. There are 15 players out there all linking up with eachother. It's not the job of one person. The same argument could be applied to SONs talents yet we made a final without him.

I'd like to think Mickey's system isn't that one dimensional.

Kyle Coney could be that person in the near future should it be required.

Anyway my original point was that i'm not overly concerned that there is no immediately identifiable playmaker.

[thewobbler]

I'd suggest that when you have players of the calibre of O'Neill and Mulligan inside, then having a playmaking centre-forward makes total sense. Cavanagh is one of the best players I've ever seen but his first thoughts are always to gain ground with his feet rather than the ball.

Zap's theory that 15 men are out to link with each other is muted by virtue of the fact that a centre half-forward by nature occupies the position on the pitch that dictates your style of football; he has the ability to change the direction and speed of play like nobody else. If he is always found in another position, then other players have to fill that void. And not everyone is comfortable in that role as it requires confidence, vision and accuracy. If his first action is always to continue the movement rather than to change it, your team can become one-dimensional.

[tyrone86]

Just read that Down team. Am surprised how many of them I don't know

I see PJ is back in the subs. Glad to see that as really rated him
If the Down team line out with Benny, Gordon & Marty Clarke all in FF line ( I know Benny is 12) then our FB line could be in for a tough aul day of it unless Block & Joey are back there to help

If Down MF come out on top and kick the ball in fast to their FF line we could be in trouble alright. I'd say if we do see that you could see McCarron coming in early for either corner back though I have been impressed with Carlin this year. I've not seen enough of Swift to convince me yet but I think we were all surprised that Davey & Ricey got the chop and he didn't.
I think having a good "Playmaker" certainly adds to the game. A player who is composed on the ball, has great vision and can see space and possible runs and can control the play is worth a lot. Its like having an extra weapon in your armoury that can unlock defences. The way McGuigan used to dummy one way and do the opposite or like give you the eyes on direction but fist it the other way. These small things can lead to great passes and opens up play for your score takers. I'd say Mugsy especially but also SoN much prefer playing with a good playmaker who knows how they like the ball played in and when they can come running out for a pass and then swivel and get it played in behind. I for one think McCullagh has this over Penrose but Penrose's workrate and excellent tackling back will win out most of the time.

BTW, was the reason why this game was scheduled for a Sat evening?
Quite a lot of people I know aren't going to it because its on Friday evening.
Will it be mad busy there near Asda on a Sat at that time?

What did Swift do to deserve the chop ahead of Davey or Ricey. Did he not keep his man scoreless the last day against Antrim. I believe Tomas McCann was also substituted. Both Ricey and Davey were poor the last day and as a result were taken off. Surely you would not advocate retaining these 2 players over Swift on current form.

I see some of the "Davey Bashers" are still not happy as Red Sean has not got his place. Maybe these "Davey Bashers" are in fact "Harte Bashers".

I think Peter Harte will be a better half back. His performances for the minors a couple of years ago at half back were great. Brilliant reader of the game and can moe forward with pace.

I was the first person to mention about Red Sean not getting his place and I don't recall having a go at Petey Harte. I don't recall bashing Davy much either.

But Petey did perform very well for the Minors at Half  back and is more than capable there, but take a look at the 08 Minor Final replay again, the winning of that game was when he was moved to Centre Half Forward in Extra time. He's a natural half forward and I still reckon thats were he'll play on Saturday with Joey moving to defence.

Indeed, to pick up on another couple of posts I think he'll assume the playmaker role that is being discussed. As LL said, he might not be exactly the same calibre of Brian McGuigan as a playmaker, but I think he'll be the equal of McCullagh in that regard and when he finds his feet, he'll score more heavily than both.