Cork V Mayo - What odds on a draw?

[IolarCoisCuain]

The division between Zulu and most of the Mayo posters here has to do with what constitutes a good year for Mayo. As far as Zulu is concerned,

... they can and should win Connacht and if they avoid Kerry/Cork in their QF then a SF is a realistic goal. If they achieve that then I think he will have done a very good job.

Which is grand, if you're not from Mayo and don't live and die with the green and red. Mayo people think Sam, which people outside Mayo think this is a ridiculous ambition. Who do they think they are, sitting there among bog and heather and dreaming of sitting at the top table?

But people in Mayo think we were seventy minutes away in 2006, 2004, 1997 and only minutes from the damn thing in 1996, so that's what we're basing the ambition on. When you're so close to something that you can nearly reach out and touch it - well, it leaves a certain want when you don't close the deal. A certain longing. A constant craving, as k.d. lang put it.

But this isn't really registering with Zulu, not because of any fault in the man, because he's looking in from the outside. Zulu will have watched that capitulation against Meath and shrugged. Can you remember what you thought about that game Zulu? You might have thought bit unlucky, Kilcoyne injured, hop of a ball, whatever. Or maybe you thought lots of things. I don't know.

But once you had drawn your conclusions, would you then have gone off and had your tea and maybe cut the grass and watched a few episodes of The Wire and did some posting on GAABoard.com?

With respect Zulu, that's not what we did in Mayo. We tore our hair out in chunks about how a team that were - sorry Hardy and the Meath boys - dead men walking at four o'clock and who had turned into the Harlem Globetrotters by half-five. We didn't like it, and still don't. I got one of the most bitter text messages I ever got after that game. It hurt. It still hurts. And we want to know whose damn fault it is that we're hurting.

John Maughan gets cursed at home over the Dermot Flanagan substitution in 1997. Nobody ever says well, Flanagan got injured, no wonder Mayo lost. But they do say well, Kilcoyne was injured, what chance had Mayo then about that game against Meath last year. Johnno gets a softer ride in terms of current analysis because of what he did in Galway, and that's given him more rope than other men have got. The analysis is not always based on his current body of work.

So what constitutes a good year for Mayo? Mayo could have a good year and not win a game. They could lose in Sligo or else to a Galway revival and then end up away against Cork/Kerry or some Northern power and still lose.

It's a knockout Championship. There have been teams that have got to a semi and never been as good before or since. Distance in Championship isn't always a true measure. People say of Mayo in our All-Ireland final years that we over-achieved. We would argue that we were serial over-achievers though, and that the potential for Championship is there if only we could unlock the key. Sisyphus rolling that boulder is only trotting after us.

We know that the luck can be against you too, as it was in 1996 (in both games, thanks to Pat McEneany's noble admission last year, for which he deserves thanks) and 1998. It's a knockout Championship. Bodies of work don't count. It's all about making it happen on the day. We just have to be sure that the Mayo team is performing as well as it can. And if that means we sound harsh on Johnno, well, tough. We're pretty harsh on ourselves too.

But that doesn't mean we'll go playing rugger either, of course. Up Mayo.

[RedandGreenSniper]

Mayo are probably 4 players away from challenging the top 2. Its not that far. Supporters are too gloomy at times. I think they are in a far better place then Dublin are at present.

I agree with that but I think you are a bit too gloomy in the capital too. Gilroy is another coach going about his business pretty well IMO but that's for another thread.

My point is not where and who we lose to, but how we lose. That will be what will dictate my analysis of the year.

Yep, that is the only way to properly judge how a team have developed but I think Mayo are going in theright direction but, as Indiana points out, are short a few players.

I don't know about knives being sharpened. We had a terrible 2007 championship, a good 2008 and what looked like a good 2009 after the Connacht final but ended up as a poor enough year because of the collapse against Meath. I personally think we have underachieved so far under John O'Mahony but am willing to be patient (not that there's much of a choice!).

That's my point R&GS, developing a team is a process and even when you are doing everything right it isn't always a smooth upward development but I like the way Mayo are going. It is easy for supporters to say we need a FB, midfielder or whatever but they aren't always about and a coach can't always find the solution to the problems that exist if the players aren't there.

As regards how things might go this year, I actually think Mayo would be capable of beating Kerry or Tyrone in the championship. As would a lot of other teams - and hence the amount of tams who will feel they can beat Mayo is not that low. But Cork are out on their own in my humble opinion

I agree once more but I've got watch what I say about Cork at this stage, if Cork was a female movie star the authorities would be keeping a close eye on me such has been my enthusiasm for their football!!

Yeah I'm with you on Cork! Dangerously attractive football they're playing. . I look forward to seeing how we measure up.

I take your point on not always having the players available but I fel we have had them at mdifield. In my opinion Kieran Conroy, James Kilcullen and Seamus O'Shea have all been options to play a physical role beside McGarrity and/or Parsons. But its only this year that any of them have been given that scope and I still can't say with certainly that they midfield pairing won't be Parsons and McGarrity for championshiop. They re too similar and while it may work with S O'Shea coming back from the  half-forward line, I don't think that's the best use of our resources.

Full-back remains a problem. MacDanger is right, every decent full-back at club level is in the panel.

[muppet]

O'Shea got injured too.

[Zulu]

Classic Omahony type defence keep expectation as low as possible then try and and boost any win as a hige bonus.

Every manager in the country attempts to dampen expectations so I don't see how that is classic JOM. And if saying a county hasn't an AI in them this year is keeping expectations low then all bar 2 or 3 counties should have low expectations.

Few other counties have had the patience of mayo with a manger that so far has taken the team back years .

Back from where, humiliating AI defeats? I don't think any rational football observer would have ranked Mayo any higher than 4th or 5th in the country over the past 3 years and you could make a strong arguement that they've been 7th or 8th so AI QF defeats to Derry, Tyrone and Meath isn't a disaster, though I do think the Meath defeat was poor.

you ask what makes a good season. Very simple this year a creditable performance in an AllIreland Final which wa the only thing lacking in the team he took over. he is now there ;ong enough to have made a team in his own image . and championship wise so far it has been Ugly.

See R&GS for a bit of reasonable analysis, who wants a credible performance in an AI, if you get there winning it is all that should matter.

While I have high hope for mayo to win the league. it will count for little as it will be probaly 3 months before mayo have a serious Championship game. while mayo team may not change that much till then everyone else will have.

Kerry and Tyrone will have some noteable changes but Dublin, Cork, Galway, Monaghan and many more will be using many of the same players they used in the league.

there isnt a team in the country who have 15 excellent players and mayo have at least 12 

Will you stop FFS. If Mayo had 12 excellent players they'd be AI favourites, Cork don't have 12 excellent players let alone Mayo. Some very good players yes, but only Dillon would be a nailed on brilliant IC footballer for me.

[RedandGreenSniper]

Maith an fear Iolar, fine post.

[INDIANA]

Zulu I don't think tyrone have one in them either this year. I can't see beyond kerry and cork. The likes of dublin, mayo , galway are below this level. Tyrone are just below kerry and cork.


I think mayo need to look at the type of underage players they are developing and start targetting the areas of the senior team where they are weak. My own county could do with the same approach. Mayo need to find one absolute top drawer 1% forward and a full back. In a football mad county like Mayo it should be easy. Could also do with finding another Liam Mc Hale.
Mayo are probably 4 players away from challenging the top 2. Its not that far. Supporters are too gloomy at times. I think they are in a far better place then Dublin are at present.

Not sure you can do that to a 16-year old Indy. 'We need a corner forward so put our star midfieldr inside and try to make an O'Neill out of him'. Could ruin more players than players you'd make.

Thats not what I mean at all. I mean actively coaching guys playing in those areas and perhaps casting the net wider then you are and looking for a different type of player. The type of player who may be good at 20 rather than 17.

Fair enough. But that would require a coherent coaching structure, where senior, Under 21, Minor, U-16 and Devopment coaches work together with the County Board in a united front. That has never happened in Mayo and doesn't look like it will start soon either.

Doesn't happen in Dublin either but it does up the North and thats the difference. Cork through sheer weight of numbers get players through. it certainly isn't by design. Kerry just produce naturals.
For example Dublin have an enormous problem at midfield going right back through the system and nothing has been done to change it.
Gaelic Football is huge in Mayo and I think directing your development structures in the areas where your senior team is weak would raise big dividends down the line.

[Zulu]

The division between Zulu and most of the Mayo posters here has to do with what constitutes a good year for Mayo. As far as Zulu is concerned,

... they can and should win Connacht and if they avoid Kerry/Cork in their QF then a SF is a realistic goal. If they achieve that then I think he will have done a very good job.

Which is grand, if you're not from Mayo and don't live and die with the green and red. Mayo people think Sam, which people outside Mayo think this is a ridiculous ambition. Who do they think they are, sitting there among bog and heather and dreaming of sitting at the top table?

But people in Mayo think we were seventy minutes away in 2006, 2004, 1997 and only minutes from the damn thing in 1996, so that's what we're basing the ambition on. When you're so close to something that you can nearly reach out and touch it - well, it leaves a certain want when you don't close the deal. A certain longing. A constant craving, as k.d. lang put it.

But this isn't really registering with Zulu, not because of any fault in the man, because he's looking in from the outside. Zulu will have watched that capitulation against Meath and shrugged. Can you remember what you thought about that game Zulu? You might have thought bit unlucky, Kilcoyne injured, hop of a ball, whatever. Or maybe you thought lots of things. I don't know.

But once you had drawn your conclusions, would you then have gone off and had your tea and maybe cut the grass and watched a few episodes of The Wire and did some posting on GAABoard.com?

With respect Zulu, that's not what we did in Mayo. We tore our hair out in chunks about how a team that were - sorry Hardy and the Meath boys - dead men walking at four o'clock and who had turned into the Harlem Globetrotters by half-five. We didn't like it, and still don't. I got one of the most bitter text messages I ever got after that game. It hurt. It still hurts. And we want to know whose damn fault it is that we're hurting.

John Maughan gets cursed at home over the Dermot Flanagan substitution in 1997. Nobody ever says well, Flanagan got injured, no wonder Mayo lost. But they do say well, Kilcoyne was injured, what chance had Mayo then about that game against Meath last year. Johnno gets a softer ride in terms of current analysis because of what he did in Galway, and that's given him more rope than other men have got. The analysis is not always based on his current body of work.

So what constitutes a good year for Mayo? Mayo could have a good year and not win a game. They could lose in Sligo or else to a Galway revival and then end up away against Cork/Kerry or some Northern power and still lose.

It's a knockout Championship. There have been teams that have got to a semi and never been as good before or since. Distance in Championship isn't always a true measure. People say of Mayo in our All-Ireland final years that we over-achieved. We would argue that we were serial over-achievers though, and that the potential for Championship is there if only we could unlock the key. Sisyphus rolling that boulder is only trotting after us.

We know that the luck can be against you too, as it was in 1996 (in both games, thanks to Pat McEneany's noble admission last year, for which he deserves thanks) and 1998. It's a knockout Championship. Bodies of work don't count. It's all about making it happen on the day. We just have to be sure that the Mayo team is performing as well as it can. And if that means we sound harsh on Johnno, well, tough. We're pretty harsh on ourselves too.

But that doesn't mean we'll go playing rugger either, of course. Up Mayo.

Although I'm not from Mayo Iolar, I do feel your pain and I don't know why but I almost feel like a Mayo man when it comes to your football so I don't simply brush off Mayo defeats as I might those of other counties I'd like to see do well. Don't ask me to explain it because I can't, there's just something about Mayo football that's intoxicating (there I go again if it isn't the current Cork footballers it's bloody Mayo football).

Although I can't fully appreciate what it's like for Mayo people I do think that Mayo folk are going to have to be a bit more realistic and patient if they are going to see their dreams come to pass. Getting rid of JOM won't solve anything, regardless of championship results, because if you do, the process starts again. New man, new ideas and a pressure to 'change' things often leads to the baby going out with the bathwater.

I'm not saying Mayo fans shouldn't dream and some self confidence never hurt anyone but it has to be matched by realistic evaluations of your players, which I think is a little bit lacking.

[moysider]

I, for one, have given him a little praise, perhaps. Why you believe he deserves credit is not obvious to me.

Because if Mayo were fighting relegation you can be sure many would be calling for his head, you can't knock a manager when things go wrong in the league and then shrug your shoulders and say it's only the league when they go right. Fair is fair.

f we struggle in the championship as you point out we usually do, then Johnno must get the credit he deserves for that as well, right?

I think you can only judge a manager on whether he is getting the most out of the players he has at his disposal and in that respect JOM hasn't done too bad IMO. I'm not sure what I would regard as a good championship for Mayo this year, I think they can and should win Connacht and if they avoid Kerry/Cork in their QF then a SF is a realistic goal. If they achieve that then I think he will have done a very good job.

Anybody with a smidereen of sense would have done the positive things that have been done this spring.

So if it goes right, anyone would have done it but if it goes wrong we'll blame the manager, seems like a lose lose situation for the manager to me. Mayo had a tough league draw this year and only for some bad kicking would be in the league final with a game to spare, he surely deserves credit for that especially when it was done without Dillon and C Mort initially, and McGarrity or Harte for long periods (and a misfiring A. O'Shea for good measure).

We re still tactically innocent and as I ve said in an earlier post players are still required to come up with the answer on the pitch - if they can.

That's a wishy washy criticism for me, what do you mean by that and how would you have them play? From my experience it is very hard to get a team to play to a plan and I know many county teams don't focus on that aspect of their play till after the league so that their card isn't marked from a long way out.

The continued absence ot Aidan Higgins from the panel is beyond belief. Looked in great shape at the weekend league game. Pace to burn still. A hardness and an awareness that would be priceless in this panel without seasoned defenders. If he brings him into the panel then he deserves credit for admitting he got it wrong and would be a better man and manager, in my book, if he did so. I wont hold my breath though. Since his second coming in Mayo he has markedly refused to reverse poor decisions. I think he must feel, as a politician, he does nt want to be seen to back down when he s wrong. That he would put his own posture ahead of the county team is a cause for concern imo.

I can't comment on Aidan as I don't see any Mayo club football but it could be he simply doesn't rate him as highly as you and feels he has enough defenders as it is. There will always be one or two players in a county like Mayo that you could make a case for but I don't think Aidan being in the panel is a make or break type decision so it isn't something that is as poor a reflection on JOM as you are making out IMO.

I would expect Mayo managed by anybody with a clue, would be in a similar position right now. Let alone a manager of about 26 years intercounty experience and a double AI winner.

Again, the you do well and anyone could do it argument, getting into the top 3 of a league containing Kerry, Tyrone, Cork, Galway etc. is an achievement regardless of a managers past record and should be acknowledged by any fair minded fan.

He s got a conveyour belt of talent most counties could only dream about. So much so he can discard players while they still have a lot to offer.

I wouldn't agree with that necessarily, Tyrone, Cork and Down have as much or more coming through based on recent underage results, even Dublin have put two U21 Leinsters back to back in the past two years. In fairness Mayo have won Connacht U21 titles but have failed to win AI's on the back of those so the real quality of those teams is debatable.

Johnno will be judged on his championships. Or maybe not. I detect a spin machine revving up. Goes something like this. Johnno shows great managerial skill to get Mayo teams to overachieve in the league. Spineless Mayo players let Johnno down in Championship.

That's a bit paranoid for me.

If Johnno manages a good championship then he ll get credit.

Which would be what?

Dont usually like to be sarcastic Zulu, but I m running out of fingers and toes counting all the super counties with not just good, but outstanding panels of players.

Not sure what you mean by that but I would only rate Cork, Kerry and Tyrone as counties with outstanding panels, and even Tyrone are slipping a bit on that score IMO. I said this last year and i still think it is true, Mayo have a panel of players that could beat any country, bar Cork or Kerry, but are not so strong that counties like Dublin, Galway, Tyrone, Monaghan, Derry, Donegal, Kildare and a few more couldn't beat them.

did i really see some one say apart from meath last year We have seen pretty good Preformances?

Have you not? The Connacht final was pretty good wasn't it or the QF performance against Tyrone for that matter?

Just a few things. First of all I dont think anybody was going to look into this league too much.The touchstone performances for this team and management were the Galway and Meath games last Championship. Nice leagu e so far for the form of Clarke, McL,Vaughan, Andy and more. The revival of Parsons( one player that managemant did not get best out of last year). McGar looks to have more drive this year. And of course the emergence of Varley and Ó Sé. These are important but now managemant must translate this potential into a Championship team. So far the players have shown that they can mix in a league where a lot of stuff is off the cuff. Mayo players have the quality to thrive in this environment. But in a more tactical championship is where the better managers give their their team an edge and now Johnno needs to show he has it in the Harte/Kernan/O Connor era. He s not sparring with Paudi now - except in print.
When I mentioned tactical innocence I was referring to a specific observation I made in another thread. Far from being wishy washy it was very specific. I wasn't so much worried about how we go about things as much as how we respond to others set up. We only found out how to play Monaghan as they game progressed. The players did not look prepared for how Monaghan play - even though they had already struggled against a similar situation v Dublin. We always do well even against the best Galway teams because the players are familiar with each others games and ways but when we go outside of Connacht we re usually not clued into the opposition. Like Meath last year and the ridiculous Joe Sheridan scenario. Management must do better sussing out opposition and get match ups and tactics better than has usually been the case in Mayo. You mention that several teams can beat Mayo in the championship. That of course is true. If we have to play Monaghan in August I wouldn't be bullish about beating them even though I wouldn't take many of their players. 5 maybe. Still I know they have the ability to out think and out fight us. That is where Johnno must earn his credits. To deliver on potential he needs to put distance between Mayo and the Donegals, Kildare,Meath, Monaghans etc.
The Aidan Higgins ommission is huge. Would have made the difference last year v Meath for one thing. It was a break decision last year and will be again I fear as we struggle to find a fb line.Johnno may feel he has enough defenders. Numbers yes but most can't defend. Higgins can and is a cool head and a leader. That s stuff we dont have. We ve lost crucial matches because likes of Mac and now Higgins were left out before natural successors emerged.
You pretty much confirmed up my fingers and toes sarcasm. You have named 3 teams with very strong panels. I wouldn't fawn over Cork yet while some of Kerry and Tyrone second tier players look very ordinary and even seasoned players like Tom O Sullivan look decidedly uncomfortable without the likes of Tomás, Dara and McCarty around. But Kerry still have about 8 elite players and nobody else can match that. I m talking about Tomás, Marc, Declan Ó Sull, Galvin, Gooch, Donaghy and McCarty if he comes back. But they ve lost some giants from last year in Dara, Kennelly, Murphy, Walsh and maybe McCarty. Also very few counties have as much coming through. Even though we went out early U21 this year there was still certain senior players in the team. But there was no midfield so.... Minor as well has a few A listers regardless how far they progress. Check out Mayo colleges performances this year. Senior A league and championship winners. 3 mayo schools in the provincial semis.
I might be paranoid but that does nt mean I m not right. Punters like stars and Johnno is a messiah for many people and there has been a clear flavour of ' Mayo God help us, if O Mahoney cant do anything with them then....'
As regards what a successful Summer would be? The season still has to pan out but I suspect that you are pigeon- holing us before a ball is kicked. If Kerry and Cork are as good as we fear they might then yeah they would probably be too big an ask. If we give ourselves a chance againt these by clever selection/match-ups/ tactics we could nt ask for more. However if we implode and self-destruct again against teams we were clearly better than like Galway( ok I know we fell over the line but it was a horror show in last quarter and the writing was on the wall. Problems not addressed either) and Meath last year, then that wont be accectable. If we lose to Sligo and pull ourselves together and get to a semi or final through the back door, then that will be accectable too - as long as we re beaten by a better team after doing our best.

[Zulu]

All pretty reasonable Moysider, even if hard to read (paragraphs and spacing needed  ) However I'd still disagree on one or two things;

The Aidan Higgins ommission is huge. Would have made the difference last year v Meath for one thing. It was a break decision last year and will be again I fear as we struggle to find a fb line.Johnno may feel he has enough defenders. Numbers yes but most can't defend. Higgins can and is a cool head and a leader.

Like I said I don't see Mayo club football but I have seen a good bit of Aidan Higgins over the years from his college days through and I don't rate him as highly as you and I don't think he'd bring a huge amount to the party. I think he probably should be on the panel but I don't feel he is a major point of contention. I also remember AOM being used as a stick to beat Maughan with yet when he got his chance Maughans judgement of him was proved right. There's always one or two boarderline players, I can't agree that Higgins is anymore than that.

You pretty much confirmed up my fingers and toes sarcasm. You have named 3 teams with very strong panels. I wouldn't fawn over Cork yet while some of Kerry and Tyrone second tier players look very ordinary

Cork are the real deal, believe me and they've better players still to mature and come in. As for Kerry and Tyrone I feel both are mentally stronger than Mayo and have the firepower and bit of real class Mayo don't have - Gooch Declan O'Sull, SON, Sean Cavanagh for example. I do think both will be weaker than they have been in the past few years but Mayo don't have a Gormley, Tomas or Marc O'Se in the backs or a Gooch Declan O'Sull, SON, Sean Cavanagh up front and that's why I feel they'd lose to these teams in CP.

The season still has to pan out but I suspect that you are pigeon- holing us before a ball is kicked.

Like I say, there'd be no happier non-Mayo man than myself if (when) Mayo win an AI but I think some of the Mayo posters have been unduly harsh on JOM and are a bit unrealistic about the quality of player available to them. I certainly hope we are both proved wrong and JOM proves he has what you fear he lacks and the players prove more capable than I'm giving them credit for but we'll find out shortly I suppose.

[moysider]

Zulu I don't think tyrone have one in them either this year. I can't see beyond kerry and cork. The likes of dublin, mayo , galway are below this level. Tyrone are just below kerry and cork.


I think mayo need to look at the type of underage players they are developing and start targetting the areas of the senior team where they are weak. My own county could do with the same approach. Mayo need to find one absolute top drawer 1% forward and a full back. In a football mad county like Mayo it should be easy. Could also do with finding another Liam Mc Hale.
Mayo are probably 4 players away from challenging the top 2. Its not that far. Supporters are too gloomy at times. I think they are in a far better place then Dublin are at present.

Not sure you can do that to a 16-year old Indy. 'We need a corner forward so put our star midfieldr inside and try to make an O'Neill out of him'. Could ruin more players than players you'd make.

Thats not what I mean at all. I mean actively coaching guys playing in those areas and perhaps casting the net wider then you are and looking for a different type of player. The type of player who may be good at 20 rather than 17.

I know what you re saying Indiana but you would need some crystal ball to see the awkward, gangly 17yr old as a future Liam McHale or Darren Fay. They just usually end up as junior midfielders no matter what you do with them. McHale, Brady, Harte or McGarrity famously never played county minor but should have and would have been better for it if they had. The fact that they didn't is down to selection policy and wouldnt happen now thankfully. Harte was left out when he was clearly the best minor midfielder around but selection was regional based with each regional selector given the option of picking 1 midfielder. The north selector picked a player from his own club and so avoided the pitchforks and torches.
Most of this years minor team will come from 4 or 5 schools. These guys have been developing at a level above club football since early teens and have good habits ingrained since early 12/13. There are no rough diamonds out there to be discovered, believe me. A natural full back or a McHale is a matter of chance unfortunately. But county managers in Mayo are getting a lot of material to bring on. They cant expect alll the work be done for them. A bit of coaching wouldn't go astray.

[Farrandeelin]

Lads, in all fairness what constitutes a good summer in Mayo football terms is as Iolar put it in his extremely well put post is SAM. Nothing less comes close. And that failing at the last hurdle 5 times over the last 20 yrs just makes the thought of actually winning one even more exciting, or would it be relief to some of the older posters??? But every year that we end up losing in the champoinship we do tear our hair out...

[moysider]

But his failure over the years not to take the full back problem seriously is probably going to come back to haunt us again

Is there a top quality FB knocking about the county that isn't in the panel???

Mayo have plenty of players to win Sam

Eh.........we have plenty of players alright........not good enough to win Sam at the minute though.....

As regards the full back thing the answer is no. That s why it should have been taken seriously. Caff was never going to be serious fb for obvious so why persist there? Because he had played there underage? That s just lazy, or even worse, rank poor judgement. Ballina dont even rate him no1 fb. Probably 3rd or 4th choice all being fit and well. However the last day he looked like he might be able to play 2 very well. Kerry and Tyrone has shown it is possible to relocate bigger men and make them full back - I m thinking about Griffin and McCarty  recent years and McMahon and McAnallen. Johnno tried it with Conroy but was not an established player and just didnt have the radar for it either. A lot of the best club players out there play midfield but only 2 can play for the county in midfield. One of those lads could be the answer if anybody is looking hard enough. It s unlikely you ll find a club player wearing 3 able for it.

[moysider]

All pretty reasonable Moysider, even if hard to read (paragraphs and spacing needed  ) However I'd still disagree on one or two things;

The Aidan Higgins ommission is huge. Would have made the difference last year v Meath for one thing. It was a break decision last year and will be again I fear as we struggle to find a fb line.Johnno may feel he has enough defenders. Numbers yes but most can't defend. Higgins can and is a cool head and a leader.

Like I said I don't see Mayo club football but I have seen a good bit of Aidan Higgins over the years from his college days through and I don't rate him as highly as you and I don't think he'd bring a huge amount to the party. I think he probably should be on the panel but I don't feel he is a major point of contention. I also remember AOM being used as a stick to beat Maughan with yet when he got his chance Maughans judgement of him was proved right. There's always one or two boarderline players, I can't agree that Higgins is anymore than that.

You pretty much confirmed up my fingers and toes sarcasm. You have named 3 teams with very strong panels. I wouldn't fawn over Cork yet while some of Kerry and Tyrone second tier players look very ordinary

Cork are the real deal, believe me and they've better players still to mature and come in. As for Kerry and Tyrone I feel both are mentally stronger than Mayo and have the firepower and bit of real class Mayo don't have - Gooch Declan O'Sull, SON, Sean Cavanagh for example. I do think both will be weaker than they have been in the past few years but Mayo don't have a Gormley, Tomas or Marc O'Se in the backs or a Gooch Declan O'Sull, SON, Sean Cavanagh up front and that's why I feel they'd lose to these teams in CP.

The season still has to pan out but I suspect that you are pigeon- holing us before a ball is kicked.

Like I say, there'd be no happier non-Mayo man than myself if (when) Mayo win an AI but I think some of the Mayo posters have been unduly harsh on JOM and are a bit unrealistic about the quality of player available to them. I certainly hope we are both proved wrong and JOM proves he has what you fear he lacks and the players prove more capable than I'm giving them credit for but we'll find out shortly I suppose.

Apologies about the typing but I was belting stuff out as I m spending too much time on this board. Also cant do the fancy editing with quotes that you and Indiana seem to have mastered.
I just cant let the Higgins thing go. It s not like the poor Austy situation at all. Only 10 year olds took that seriously. Nice fella but .... Crazy thing is Johnno carried him along for 3 years as well and is still fond of carrying  baggage. There are at least 4 in the panel that wont play Championship football this year or any year.
I know Aidan is no Marc O Sé but he s as good as it gets for us. Most of our backs are a ball of nerves. Aidan was a kid in 99 and a bit exposed. Now he s a mature confident player and out in the cold. Only Keith Higgins plays with the type of confidence you need but does make blunders. Likes of Vaughan, McLoughlin, Caff, Howley need a bit of steadiness around - something likes of Gardiner cannot provide. Only Clarkie and Keith are giving us that steadiness and it wont be enough. I would have Aidan as one of my first picks on the team with Keith, Clarkie and Dillon and work from there.
I d be inclined to agree about Cork being the real deal - most of the time. But they weren't last September were they. What McCarty and Tomás did to O Neill and Kerrigan should have been censored for kids. Corks capitulations in AI finals v Kerry almost as bad as ours. Worse in fact because they can beat them a few months earlier and then.... bam. Cork are on intimate terms with Kerry so there s no excuse for their beatings while in our case you could make 'going into unknown territory' excuse. Cork/Kerry is like a Mayo/Galway game and Mayo/Galway is not as fickle as that.
Right now Tyrone and Kerry have proven quality that likes of us don't. But nothing stays the same. Block was a nobody until he made that block. It s up to Johnno to try and get these players to take that push on more. Those quality players you mention have been the best last no. of years but things change. I would nt beat myself up about winning Sam this year. I ve survived many a year without Sam. But I want to see structure, shape, form, power, ambition, tactical astuteness, smart selection, heart, endeavour, fortitude, cunning, ruthlessness, etc. That would indicate that we re going in the right direction and that if we re the best team some year we might win it, rather than just hoping to win it sometime. Dont think I m asking for too much. Just good practice.

[moysider]

Lads, in all fairness what constitutes a good summer in Mayo football terms is as Iolar put it in his extremely well put post is SAM. Nothing less comes close. And that failing at the last hurdle 5 times over the last 20 yrs just makes the thought of actually winning one even more exciting, or would it be relief to some of the older posters??? But every year that we end up losing in the champoinship we do tear our hair out...

For me it would have been relief in 96. No kidding. Ok 'only' saw us lose 89 before but the soft capitulations of talented teams in years like 86 and 97 and 90 and 91 were hard to take. Then there were the horror shows like 82 in Tuam and of course 92,93 and 94 to Donegal, Cork and Leitrim. I d have taken your hand off for a win in 96.
I believed we would win in 97 and still believe we should have. I ll never forget pickin up mid west drivin through Meath and the late Willie The Shoe pulling the plug early on his programme. He was too depressed to continue.
04 and 06 were numbness for me. Couldn't convince myself beforehand we had any hope but had to sit through it anyway. I could only compare it to watching somebody hack your kids to death and you have to sit and watch it. And worse, you knew it was goin to happen for weeks in advance but nobody could or would do anything about it. That s why I m still iffy about this new look league Mayo. Seasoned coaches should be able to see large chinks and they will exploit them. We, as we always do, will play our own game and hope for the best. We ll focus on ourselves and let the opposition worry about us. I mean that strategy has served us well in the past. Right?

[diehard]

The main concern in Mayo is Full Back.........and with good reason.  We have had a few terrible experiences in the past ........despite playing a talented footballer like David Heaney there.
When you pull on the No.3 jersey at IC level look who you will probably be facing - Paddy Bradley, Kieran Donaghy, Bernard Brogan, Declan Meehan, Mattie Forde, Sean Kavanagh, Stephen O Neill etc etc.  Need I say any more?  You might not win a game at full back but you can certainly lose a winnable game by being dodgy in that position.
Mayo are no where near ready in that position yet.  And this I fear will be our undoing yet again come the summer.  Certainly if I was an opposing manager I would be targeting that position.
Maybe that's why Billy Joe is being brought back? Not that this will be an automatic fix but what other options are there?