Cork V Mayo - What odds on a draw?

[moysider]

Hard to comment on this game, we just don't know how seriously will Cork take it. I suspect they'll play a weakened side which makes predicting the winner difficult. Mayo are coming along nicely but they often do well in the league and struggle in the championship, particularly at the business end, so I'm not convinced that their current position is any cause for summer optimism. Considering the heat JOM was getting here at the start of the year I don't see too many lads giving him the credit he deserves, is that fair or have I just missed those posts?

I, for one, have given him a little praise, perhaps. Why you believe he deserves credit is not obvious to me. If he has got it right for the business end ok but right now we can enjoy a nice early run but the ? marks remain and if we struggle in the championship as you point out we usually do, then Johnno must get the credit he deserves for that as well, right?
Anybody with a smidereen of sense would have done the positive things that have been done this spring. Things like playing Seamus Ó Sé and not playing Donal Vaughan corner back. But his failure over the years not to take the full back problem seriously is probably going to come back to haunt us again. He may have done something about our fitness preparation, and if he has I will give him credit for that - even though his card was marked on that more than a year ago and he should have changed things last year.
We re still tactically innocent and as I ve said in an earlier post players are still required to come up with the answer on the pitch - if they can.
The continued absence ot Aidan Higgins from the panel is beyond belief. Looked in great shape at the weekend league game. Pace to burn still. A hardness and an awareness that would be priceless in this panel without seasoned defenders. If he brings him into the panel then he deserves credit for admitting he got it wrong and would be a better man and manager, in my book, if he did so. I wont hold my breath though. Since his second coming in Mayo he has markedly refused to reverse poor decisions. I think he must feel, as a politician, he does nt want to be seen to back down when he s wrong. That he would put his own posture ahead of the county team is a cause for concern imo.
I would expect Mayo managed by anybody with a clue, would be in a similar position right now. Let alone a manager of about 26 years intercounty experience and a double AI winner. He s got a conveyour belt of talent most counties could only dream about. So much so he can discard players while they still have a lot to offer. Johnno will be judged on his championships. Or maybe not. I detect a spin machine revving up. Goes something like this. Johnno shows great managerial skill to get Mayo teams to overachieve in the league. Spineless Mayo players let Johnno down in Championship.
Not buying it. If Johnno manages a good championship then he ll get credit.

[moysider]

Touche! And I will gladly acknowledge his improvement though the jury is still out as far as I'm concerned, he will need to produce championship performances before I am convinced. In saying that, he is performing much better than I thought he would and it is great to see him develop as he is a decent skin and I'd love to see him be part of an AI winning Mayo team. As for JOM, I think he has been doing a good job (like Gilroy in Dublin) with a good, but not outstanding, panel of players and he is simply continuing that good work but isn't getting much credit for it. When Mayo go through a bad patch or lose however lads are never slow to get the digs in.

Dont usually like to be sarcastic Zulu, but I m running out of fingers and toes counting all the super counties with not just good, but outstanding panels of players.

I, for one, have always got digs in before the bad event. And I think I was very restrained in my digs after Meath last year. The stumblin blocks for a probable Mayo demise in championship this year are obvious now. That gives Johnno weeks to work on it. If he addresses those obvious problems then people would appreciate that. Nobody expectiong miracles. Just the best possible.

[rosnarun]

did i really see some one say apart from meath last year We have seen pretty good Preformances? Meath was a late laspse in concentration Derry was probably the worst performace i gave seen from a mayo championship team in the last 20 years . including ALL Ireland finals . at least against kerry we lost to the best team since the 1980's against derry we were humiliated by a bunch of also rans, no wonder Pearse hanley got out of here Pronto.
If mayo get to a league Final he will finally get them back to  where her found them(providing we get to the AIF as well this year.)
the only occasion that came close for bad performances was the display against sligo under pat holmes and Mayo won the friggin league that year.
A wee bit soon be be even cooking any humble pie yet.

[Lar Naparka]

Touche! And I will gladly acknowledge his improvement though the jury is still out as far as I'm concerned, he will need to produce championship performances before I am convinced. In saying that, he is performing much better than I thought he would and it is great to see him develop as he is a decent skin and I'd love to see him be part of an AI winning Mayo team. As for JOM, I think he has been doing a good job (like Gilroy in Dublin) with a good, but not outstanding, panel of players and he is simply continuing that good work but isn't getting much credit for it. When Mayo go through a bad patch or lose however lads are never slow to get the digs in.

Dont usually like to be sarcastic Zulu, but I m running out of fingers and toes counting all the super counties with not just good, but outstanding panels of players.

I, for one, have always got digs in before the bad event. And I think I was very restrained in my digs after Meath last year. The stumblin blocks for a probable Mayo demise in championship this year are obvious now. That gives Johnno weeks to work on it. If he addresses those obvious problems then people would appreciate that. Nobody expectiong miracles. Just the best possible.

And I, for one, think your comments about the Meath match were bang on! My only reservation was when you called for coaching techniques for the players as they were lacking in the basics – or something along those lines. Well, you can't teach an old dog new tricks and with the CVs some of those on show that day have, there is no point in even trying.
By any rational standards, it was pure GUBU all the way and was only matched, in my 50 years experience, by some of the other championships displays since John O'Mahony returned. In the clueless stakes, the manager beat the players by a short head.
I also wasn't expecting miracles, just the best possible and I was, and am, wishing everyone concerned the very best. If it turns out that Johnno has only a clutch of gluggers in the nest, he can't be asked to work miracles. Same goes for the players; they are only amateurs after all and if their best isn't good enough, then so be it.
This year, for me anyway, things are beginning to shape up a bit and I'd like to think that I give team and manager due credit at all times. Winning an All Ireland may well be beyond them this year or any other but all concerned seem to be making progress. There have been plenty of mistakes along the way but the ability and willingness to learn from those mistakes is all-important.
With God's help, we'll see some improvement over previous years in the months ahead.

[Zulu]

I, for one, have given him a little praise, perhaps. Why you believe he deserves credit is not obvious to me.

Because if Mayo were fighting relegation you can be sure many would be calling for his head, you can't knock a manager when things go wrong in the league and then shrug your shoulders and say it's only the league when they go right. Fair is fair.

f we struggle in the championship as you point out we usually do, then Johnno must get the credit he deserves for that as well, right?

I think you can only judge a manager on whether he is getting the most out of the players he has at his disposal and in that respect JOM hasn't done too bad IMO. I'm not sure what I would regard as a good championship for Mayo this year, I think they can and should win Connacht and if they avoid Kerry/Cork in their QF then a SF is a realistic goal. If they achieve that then I think he will have done a very good job.

Anybody with a smidereen of sense would have done the positive things that have been done this spring.

So if it goes right, anyone would have done it but if it goes wrong we'll blame the manager, seems like a lose lose situation for the manager to me. Mayo had a tough league draw this year and only for some bad kicking would be in the league final with a game to spare, he surely deserves credit for that especially when it was done without Dillon and C Mort initially, and McGarrity or Harte for long periods (and a misfiring A. O'Shea for good measure).

We re still tactically innocent and as I ve said in an earlier post players are still required to come up with the answer on the pitch - if they can.

That's a wishy washy criticism for me, what do you mean by that and how would you have them play? From my experience it is very hard to get a team to play to a plan and I know many county teams don't focus on that aspect of their play till after the league so that their card isn't marked from a long way out.

The continued absence ot Aidan Higgins from the panel is beyond belief. Looked in great shape at the weekend league game. Pace to burn still. A hardness and an awareness that would be priceless in this panel without seasoned defenders. If he brings him into the panel then he deserves credit for admitting he got it wrong and would be a better man and manager, in my book, if he did so. I wont hold my breath though. Since his second coming in Mayo he has markedly refused to reverse poor decisions. I think he must feel, as a politician, he does nt want to be seen to back down when he s wrong. That he would put his own posture ahead of the county team is a cause for concern imo.

I can't comment on Aidan as I don't see any Mayo club football but it could be he simply doesn't rate him as highly as you and feels he has enough defenders as it is. There will always be one or two players in a county like Mayo that you could make a case for but I don't think Aidan being in the panel is a make or break type decision so it isn't something that is as poor a reflection on JOM as you are making out IMO.

I would expect Mayo managed by anybody with a clue, would be in a similar position right now. Let alone a manager of about 26 years intercounty experience and a double AI winner.

Again, the you do well and anyone could do it argument, getting into the top 3 of a league containing Kerry, Tyrone, Cork, Galway etc. is an achievement regardless of a managers past record and should be acknowledged by any fair minded fan.

He s got a conveyour belt of talent most counties could only dream about. So much so he can discard players while they still have a lot to offer.

I wouldn't agree with that necessarily, Tyrone, Cork and Down have as much or more coming through based on recent underage results, even Dublin have put two U21 Leinsters back to back in the past two years. In fairness Mayo have won Connacht U21 titles but have failed to win AI's on the back of those so the real quality of those teams is debatable.

Johnno will be judged on his championships. Or maybe not. I detect a spin machine revving up. Goes something like this. Johnno shows great managerial skill to get Mayo teams to overachieve in the league. Spineless Mayo players let Johnno down in Championship.

That's a bit paranoid for me.

If Johnno manages a good championship then he ll get credit.

Which would be what?

Dont usually like to be sarcastic Zulu, but I m running out of fingers and toes counting all the super counties with not just good, but outstanding panels of players.

Not sure what you mean by that but I would only rate Cork, Kerry and Tyrone as counties with outstanding panels, and even Tyrone are slipping a bit on that score IMO. I said this last year and i still think it is true, Mayo have a panel of players that could beat any country, bar Cork or Kerry, but are not so strong that counties like Dublin, Galway, Tyrone, Monaghan, Derry, Donegal, Kildare and a few more couldn't beat them.

did i really see some one say apart from meath last year We have seen pretty good Preformances?

Have you not? The Connacht final was pretty good wasn't it or the QF performance against Tyrone for that matter?

[RedandGreenSniper]

Zulu I respect your opinion and while on a lot  of occasions it is beneficial to hear someone with a detached view give their opinion, some of your comments here are very general comment looking at things from a distance and not fully aware of some of the specifics. And I mean that in the best possible sense.

For instance, the Aidan Higgins one is strange to me considering we are so lacking in specialised full-back line players. But, you are right, it is not a huge selection blunder all the same. I could point out some of those but we're best leave them in the past.

Regarding the underage teams, I think you are looking at the success of the teams rather than the individual merits of players in those sides. You can have a very strong team at U-21 level but only two or three good enough to go on to play at Senior. Conversely you could have an-21 team that underachieves yet could produce a high yield of senior players.
Mayo have had successful U-21 teams and we've had plenty of players in there to provide a very good stream for management.

On the basis of the league, so far, John has done very well. That is not in doubt for me. But it comes with the caveat that we don't know where each team is at in terms of their prep for championship. The Kerry players were nowhere near the same pitch as Mayo players in their league clash, for instance. So we are going to be careful to hype up very good league performances. It is, of course, better to play well in the league than not, but they have a habit of being misleading.

We will be able to truly assess how John O'Mahony has done after championship. And what will a good year be, I hear you ask?

Well I'm not going to say a Connacht title, a quarter final or semi-final place or anything like that. Because that would be to look at Mayo in isolation and not leave room for if Mayo get beaten on a day by a very high performing Galway or Kildare or Derry team, for instance.

A good year for me would be Mayo playing close to their potential, not naive about how they line up against the opposition, able for the fight when it comes down to it, fit enought to keep going for 70 minutes and if that isdn't good enough, then I'll take my hat off to the better team.

[Zulu]

Regarding the underage teams, I think you are looking at the success of the teams rather than the individual merits of players in those sides. You can have a very strong team at U-21 level but only two or three good enough to go on to play at Senior. Conversely you could have an-21 team that underachieves yet could produce a high yield of senior players.
Mayo have had successful U-21 teams and we've had plenty of players in there to provide a very good stream for management.

I'd agree with that 100% and I didn't mean to imply that you judge players abilities on the success of the teams they play in, I was just pointing out that a number of counties could have as many good young players coming through as Mayo. I purposefully left Kerry out, which proves your point, they have had very limited success at underage in recent years but they still bring through lads who become good seniors.

I think Mayo have produced some great young players recently but they are quite similar and none of them is a real gem of a scoring forward, a Heslin or Murphy (Carlow) type midfielder or a real quality FB. If you could field 15 attacking wing backs I'm sure Mayo would win most AI's but you can't (as you lads know more than most) and as such I wouldn't be too confident about the future.

On the basis of the league, so far, John has done very well. That is not in doubt for me. But it comes with the caveat that we don't know where each team is at in terms of their prep for championship. The Kerry players were nowhere near the same pitch as Mayo players in their league clash, for instance. So we are going to be careful to hype up very good league performances. It is, of course, better to play well in the league than not, but they have a habit of being misleading.

Again I agree, but you can only look after your own game and if your opponents aren't up as well prepared as they should be then what can you do? It should be acknowledge that Mayo were, and are, missing a few players too so they have done well IMO and considering the negativity of Mayo fans prior to the league it wouldn't go amiss for lads to give the management a pat on the back for a job well done.

We will be able to truly assess how John O'Mahony has done after championship. And what will a good year be, I hear you ask?

Well I'm not going to say a Connacht title, a quarter final or semi-final place or anything like that. Because that would be to look at Mayo in isolation and not leave room for if Mayo get beaten on a day by a very high performing Galway or Kildare or Derry team, for instance.

A good year for me would be Mayo playing close to their potential, not naive about how they line up against the opposition, able for the fight when it comes down to it, fit enought to keep going for 70 minutes and if that isdn't good enough, then I'll take my hat off to the better team.

Once again, I'm in full agreement. You can't judge a team by what stage of the championship they get to as they might have to play a Kerry or Cork early on (for example) while another county could reach a SF without ever playing a top 4 or 5 opponent. Nevertheless, I think some Mayo posters already have their knives sharpened if Mayo do stumble later on and I don't think that is justified. As you've pointed out Mayo could get beaten by a Galway or Kildare, this isn't something that would happen to Cork or Kerry IMO, so Mayo are very close to too many teams, talentwise, for the manager to be slated if they were to meet and be narrowly beaten by one of those teams.

It often amuses me when I see fans criticize manager after manager before it begins to dawn on them that the players aren't up to much. The only managers that will have definitely failed if they don't lead their team to an AI is Counihan, O'Connor and Harte. I don't think Mayo have an AI in them this year so JOM has to be judged by that standard IMO.

[INDIANA]

Zulu I don't think tyrone have one in them either this year. I can't see beyond kerry and cork. The likes of dublin, mayo , galway are below this level. Tyrone are just below kerry and cork.


I think mayo need to look at the type of underage players they are developing and start targetting the areas of the senior team where they are weak. My own county could do with the same approach. Mayo need to find one absolute top drawer 1% forward and a full back. In a football mad county like Mayo it should be easy. Could also do with finding another Liam Mc Hale.
Mayo are probably 4 players away from challenging the top 2. Its not that far. Supporters are too gloomy at times. I think they are in a far better place then Dublin are at present.

[RedandGreenSniper]

Once again, I'm in full agreement. You can't judge a team by what stage of the championship they get to as they might have to play a Kerry or Cork early on (for example) while another county could reach a SF without ever playing a top 4 or 5 opponent. Nevertheless, I think some Mayo posters already have their knives sharpened if Mayo do stumble later on and I don't think that is justified. As you've pointed out Mayo could get beaten by a Galway or Kildare, this isn't something that would happen to Cork or Kerry IMO, so Mayo are very close to too many teams, talentwise, for the manager to be slated if they were to meet and be narrowly beaten by one of those teams.

It often amuses me when I see fans criticize manager after manager before it begins to dawn on them that the players aren't up to much. The only managers that will have definitely failed if they don't lead their team to an AI is Counihan, O'Connor and Harte. I don't think Mayo have an AI in them this year so JOM has to be judged by that standard IMO.

My point is not where and who we lose to, but how we lose. That will be what will dictate my analysis of the year. I don't know about knives being sharpened. We had a terrible 2007 championship, a good 2008 and what looked like a good 2009 after the Connacht final but ended up as a poor enough year because of the collapse against Meath. I personally think we have underachieved so far under John O'Mahony but am willing to be patient (not that there's much of a choice!).

As regards how things might go this year, I actually think Mayo would be capable of beating Kerry or Tyrone in the championship. As would a lot of other teams - and hence the amount of tams who will feel they can beat Mayo is not that low. But Cork are out on their own in my humble opinion.

[RedandGreenSniper]

Zulu I don't think tyrone have one in them either this year. I can't see beyond kerry and cork. The likes of dublin, mayo , galway are below this level. Tyrone are just below kerry and cork.


I think mayo need to look at the type of underage players they are developing and start targetting the areas of the senior team where they are weak. My own county could do with the same approach. Mayo need to find one absolute top drawer 1% forward and a full back. In a football mad county like Mayo it should be easy. Could also do with finding another Liam Mc Hale.
Mayo are probably 4 players away from challenging the top 2. Its not that far. Supporters are too gloomy at times. I think they are in a far better place then Dublin are at present.

Not sure you can do that to a 16-year old Indy. 'We need a corner forward so put our star midfieldr inside and try to make an O'Neill out of him'. Could ruin more players than players you'd make.

[Zulu]

Mayo are probably 4 players away from challenging the top 2. Its not that far. Supporters are too gloomy at times. I think they are in a far better place then Dublin are at present.

I agree with that but I think you are a bit too gloomy in the capital too. Gilroy is another coach going about his business pretty well IMO but that's for another thread.

My point is not where and who we lose to, but how we lose. That will be what will dictate my analysis of the year.

Yep, that is the only way to properly judge how a team have developed but I think Mayo are going in theright direction but, as Indiana points out, are short a few players.

I don't know about knives being sharpened. We had a terrible 2007 championship, a good 2008 and what looked like a good 2009 after the Connacht final but ended up as a poor enough year because of the collapse against Meath. I personally think we have underachieved so far under John O'Mahony but am willing to be patient (not that there's much of a choice!).

That's my point R&GS, developing a team is a process and even when you are doing everything right it isn't always a smooth upward development but I like the way Mayo are going. It is easy for supporters to say we need a FB, midfielder or whatever but they aren't always about and a coach can't always find the solution to the problems that exist if the players aren't there.

As regards how things might go this year, I actually think Mayo would be capable of beating Kerry or Tyrone in the championship. As would a lot of other teams - and hence the amount of tams who will feel they can beat Mayo is not that low. But Cork are out on their own in my humble opinion

I agree once more but I've got watch what I say about Cork at this stage, if Cork was a female movie star the authorities would be keeping a close eye on me such has been my enthusiasm for their football!!

[INDIANA]

Zulu I don't think tyrone have one in them either this year. I can't see beyond kerry and cork. The likes of dublin, mayo , galway are below this level. Tyrone are just below kerry and cork.


I think mayo need to look at the type of underage players they are developing and start targetting the areas of the senior team where they are weak. My own county could do with the same approach. Mayo need to find one absolute top drawer 1% forward and a full back. In a football mad county like Mayo it should be easy. Could also do with finding another Liam Mc Hale.
Mayo are probably 4 players away from challenging the top 2. Its not that far. Supporters are too gloomy at times. I think they are in a far better place then Dublin are at present.

Not sure you can do that to a 16-year old Indy. 'We need a corner forward so put our star midfieldr inside and try to make an O'Neill out of him'. Could ruin more players than players you'd make.

Thats not what I mean at all. I mean actively coaching guys playing in those areas and perhaps casting the net wider then you are and looking for a different type of player. The type of player who may be good at 20 rather than 17.

[rosnarun]

I don't think Mayo have an AI in them this year so JOM has to be judged by that standard IMO.

Classic Omahony type defence keep expectation as low as possible then try and and boost any win as a hige bonus.
Few other counties have had the patience of mayo with a manger that so far has taken the team back years .
you ask what makes a good season. Very simple this year a creditable performance in an AllIreland Final which wa the only thing lacking in the team he took over. he is now there ;ong enough to have made a team in his own image . and championship wise so far it has been Ugly.
While I have high hope for mayo to win the league. it will count for little as it will be probaly 3 months before mayo have a serious Championship game. while mayo team may not change that much till then everyone else will have.
Mayo have plenty of players to win Sam . there isnt a team in the country who have 15 excellent players and mayo have at least 12  with maybe 10 pretty decent ones.
No excuses now or never.(until next year)

[macdanger2]

But his failure over the years not to take the full back problem seriously is probably going to come back to haunt us again

Is there a top quality FB knocking about the county that isn't in the panel???

Mayo have plenty of players to win Sam

Eh.........we have plenty of players alright........not good enough to win Sam at the minute though.....

[RedandGreenSniper]

Zulu I don't think tyrone have one in them either this year. I can't see beyond kerry and cork. The likes of dublin, mayo , galway are below this level. Tyrone are just below kerry and cork.


I think mayo need to look at the type of underage players they are developing and start targetting the areas of the senior team where they are weak. My own county could do with the same approach. Mayo need to find one absolute top drawer 1% forward and a full back. In a football mad county like Mayo it should be easy. Could also do with finding another Liam Mc Hale.
Mayo are probably 4 players away from challenging the top 2. Its not that far. Supporters are too gloomy at times. I think they are in a far better place then Dublin are at present.

Not sure you can do that to a 16-year old Indy. 'We need a corner forward so put our star midfieldr inside and try to make an O'Neill out of him'. Could ruin more players than players you'd make.

Thats not what I mean at all. I mean actively coaching guys playing in those areas and perhaps casting the net wider then you are and looking for a different type of player. The type of player who may be good at 20 rather than 17.

Fair enough. But that would require a coherent coaching structure, where senior, Under 21, Minor, U-16 and Devopment coaches work together with the County Board in a united front. That has never happened in Mayo and doesn't look like it will start soon either.