Is the Pope guilty of sexual abuse cover up?

[orangeman]

Give her Dixie posted this on the Clerical abuse page - think it might be more suited here :


Catholic League head: Abuse not pedophilia because boys were 'post-pubescent'
The head of the influential Catholic League says that the priest who allegedly sexually abused 200 deaf boys in Wisconsin did not engage in pedophilia because 'the vast majority of the victims [were] post-pubescent."

Bill Donohue made the argument during a raucous debate on Larry King Live Tuesday night, during which he repeatedly pointed the finger to homosexuality -- rather than pedophilia -- as the cause of the church's sex abuse problems.

"You've got to get your facts straight," Donohue said, addressing sex abuse victim Thomas Roberts. "I am sorry. If Im the only one thats going to deal with facts tonight then that'll be it. The vast majority of the victims are post-pubescent. Thats not pedophilia, buddy. Thats homosexuality."
A rather surprised panel of commentators -- which included pop icon Sinead O'Connor -- then began to debate at what age, exactly, does sexual attraction to children cease to be pedophilia.

Donohue argued the age at which children become "post-pubescent" is around 12 or 13.


Click on this link to read the article in full, and then watch the 3 minute clip from the show where he springs this wild claim.
Is now a defence that is going to be used in the future by elements within the church?

http://rawstory.com/rs/2010/0331/catholic-league-boys-pubescent/

[Ulick]

I think you need to read it again. Yes they said the Pope was written to, but they didn't say the matter was quietly dropped. They say he failed to respond to the letters. Meanwhile the 'case' (Canon not proper civil) continued for 2 years without resolution until he died, still a priest. That doesn't disagree with either article.

Your 'judge' never really contradicts anything other than to deny he was the source of the quotes, but he never states the quotes were false.

The original NY Times article said the case was dropped. The judge said it wasn't. The fact that the case continued makes any claim that the Pope never replied to a letter (asking for an investigation and for him to be defrocked) irrelevant.

[Ulick]

Even the canon law judge (inadvertently) admits there was a cover up, authorised by Ratzinger.
It is as plain as the nose on anyones face.
Yet we have heard claims by Ratzinger that  'Crimen' nor the Code of Canon Law ever prohibited the reporting of child abuse to law enforcement authorities."
At no time during all his exhaustive and tearful investigation did the canon law judge inform the legal authorities of the evidence.

The police had already dropped the prosecution, it was the Church that continued with it.

[hairyhog]

this should've been an april fool unfortunately it appears to be serious!

Satan behind media attacks on the Pope, asserts Italian exorcist

Noted Italian exorcist Father Gabriele Amorth, commented this week that the recent defamatory reporting on Pope Benedict XVI, especially by the New York Times, was "prompted by the devil."

Speaking to News Mediaset in Italy, the 85-year-old exorcist noted that the devil is behind "the recent attacks on Pope Benedict XVI regarding some pedophilia cases."

"There is no doubt about it.  Because he is a marvelous Pope and worthy successor to John Paul II, it is clear that the devil wants to 'grab hold' of him."

Father Amorth added that in instances of sexual abuse committed by some members of the clergy, the devil "uses" priests in order to cast blame upon the entire Church: "The devil wants the death of the Church because she is the mother of all the saints."

"He combats the Church through the men of the Church, but he can do nothing to the Church."

The exorcist went on to note that Satan tempts holy men, "and so we should not be surprised if priests too ... fall into temptation. They also live in the world and can fall like men of the world."

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/satan_behind_media_attacks_on_the_pope_asserts_italian_exorcist/

[Main Street]

Even the canon law judge (inadvertently) admits there was a cover up, authorised by Ratzinger.
It is as plain as the nose on anyones face.
Yet we have heard claims by Ratzinger that  'Crimen' nor the Code of Canon Law ever prohibited the reporting of child abuse to law enforcement authorities."
At no time during all his exhaustive and tearful investigation did the canon law judge inform the legal authorities of the evidence.

The police had already dropped the prosecution, it was the Church that continued with it.

The police had dropped a prosecution in the mid 1970's ?
This new evidence was compiled by the canon law judge in 1996.
The new evidence was not handed over to the police despite the canon law judge alluding to that it was a possibility.

[Ulick]

The police had dropped a prosecution in the mid 1970's ?
This new evidence was compiled by the canon law judge in 1996.
The new evidence was not handed over to the police despite the canon law judge alluding to that it was a possibility.

No the police came to the conclusion he was going to die and there was no point in reopening the investigation, though I'm not sure what that as to do with the Popes "cover-up".

[Main Street]

The police had dropped a prosecution in the mid 1970's ?
This new evidence was compiled by the canon law judge in 1996.
The new evidence was not handed over to the police despite the canon law judge alluding to that it was a possibility.

No the police came to the conclusion he was going to die and there was no point in reopening the investigation, though I'm not sure what that as to do with the Popes "cover-up".

Why would the Milwaukee DA use such an excuse? Have you got a link to that?
I suspect you are mixing up what has allegedly happened in the fantasy world canon law prosecution, which carries the most lethal punishment of losing a frock, to what happened in the world of real criminal law prosecution.

The criminal prosecutors did not go ahead in the mid 70's because the Milwaukee DA claimed the 6 year statute of limitations had passed.

The Canon Law Judge say he informed the sex abuser Murphy in 1996 that criminal charges may be filed against him. Yet no mention was made by the CLJ that contact was made with the DA. One can only conclude that the CLJ did not contact the DA,  not even to ascertain the status of a  possible criminal prosecution.

[muppet]

I think you need to read it again. Yes they said the Pope was written to, but they didn't say the matter was quietly dropped. They say he failed to respond to the letters. Meanwhile the 'case' (Canon not proper civil) continued for 2 years without resolution until he died, still a priest. That doesn't disagree with either article.

Your 'judge' never really contradicts anything other than to deny he was the source of the quotes, but he never states the quotes were false.

The original NY Times article said the case was dropped. The judge said it wasn't. The fact that the case continued makes any claim that the Pope never replied to a letter (asking for an investigation and for him to be defrocked) irrelevant.

This is mere semantics. It could be argued that the case was dropped because he died or that it wasn't dropped because he died. Either way the 'judge's' article hardly delivers the knockout blow you suggested.

[Ulick]

Going round in circles here lads. The New York Times have been proven to be less than truthful with the facts to say the least and certainly don't have any evidence to suggest the Pope was engaged in a cover-up. Back to the drawing board, but no doubt I'm sure there'll be another equally spurious claim coming along soon. See you then...

[HowAreYeGettinOn]

Something tells me this will be of interest to Ulick and Muppet...

(http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2010/04/father-brundage-is-wrong.html#more)

The Vatican Spins; The NYT Wins

01 Apr 2010 09:53 am

The Vatican came out swinging yesterday against the New York Times. And whiffed bad. The Vatican accused the Times of reporting "deficient by any reasonable standards of fairness," and insisting that then-Cardinal Ratzinger had nothing to do with the decision by his deputy to suspend a canonical trial against Father Lawrence Murphy, an unrepentant multiple rapist of deaf children, because he was nearing death.

The only way this can be the case is, again, if control-queen Ratzinger knew nothing of the final decisions of his number two in a meeting in Rome on a case where hundreds of defenseless deaf children had been raped and molested by an unrepentant priest for decades. That's the agit-prop being pushed out by some Vatican-sympathizers. They argue that because Ratzinger's CDF only got responsibility for child abuse cases in 2001, he cannot have been responsible for the 1998 decision. But Ratzinger was in charge of the case in 1996 to 1998 because

"Father Murphy was suspected of using the confessional to commit his crimes — a crime that is considered particularly serious under the church's canon law because confession is a sacrament. "

This is why Ratzinger is so connected to the Murphy case. And he was handling it for two years. What are the odds he knew nothing about it? Or that he had no sign-off on the final decision not to proceed with a trial?

But the NYT's coup de grace against the Vatican comes with the theocon chief witness, Father Brundage. Brundage had claimed he had been misquoted in the NYT, and that the trial was indeed ongoing at the time of Murphy's death. Brundage, now seeing documents he had not seen before, reverses himself:

"    Father Brundage, who is now working in the Archdiocese of Anchorage, posted an essay this week saying he was never informed that the trial of Father Murphy had been halted.

    He also said that he had been misquoted in both The New York Times and The Associated Press. In an interview on Wednesday, Father Brundage acknowledged that he had never been quoted in any Times articles about the Murphy case — and the paper did not misquote him. He said he was misquoted in an Associated Press article that was posted temporarily on the Times Web site, and he mistakenly attributed that to The Times.

    He said the documents show that the Vatican had encouraged the Milwaukee Archdiocese to halt the trial, but they did not use strong language and actually order a halt. He said that he never saw the letter from Archbishop Weakland abating the trial until it appeared on the Times Web site last week."

So it seems perfectly clear that the Vatican did indeed make the final decision - against Weakland's wishes - not to proceed with a canonical trial, and Murphy was buried in full vestments, and his victims never got justice and the church had more sympathy with an elderly and dying priest than with the raped souls and bodies of countless children. The indefatigable Carolyn Disco, a commenter at America, and NCR and a Dish-reader, notes the critical meeting when the decision was made:

"     Snip: The May 30, 1998 meeting with Weakland, Fliss, Sklba, Bertone, his deputy Girotti, and staff is critical. The translated minutes from Italian specify Weakland pleaded for a canonical trial to proceed. He specified six points, including Murphy has no remorse, many victims, fear of scandal, etc. Some of the translation wording can be awkward but the meaning is clear.

    Then Bertone lists the problems of continuing a trial: difficulty in furnishing proofs, testimonies without increasing scandal, need for secrecy, long period of time, no other accusations from Superior diocese; that "there are not enough elements to instruct a canonical trial."

    Bertone lists what should be done by way of "penal remedies"  like restricting where Murphy can celebrate Eucharist (only Superior, not Milwaukee), and requiring permission in writing. Also that Murphy must give clear signs of repentance, "OTHERWISE he must be applied to a trial." Clear signs of repentance mean NO TRIAL.
     
    Bertone even "restates the two central points TO BE FOLLOWED" and lists them: (no discretion allowed) "1) the territorial restriction of the celebration (of the) Eucharist and 2) the needed remorse and reform of the priest." That's it, period.
     
    The meeting concludes with Weakland's pained "difficulty he will have explaining this to the community of the deaf." Weakland would have no difficulty at all explaining the continuation of a trial but great difficulty in explaining the cancellation of one."

Notice that one factor in Bertone's decision - my italics - was avoiding more scandal for the church and needing more secrecy. Moreover, Disco notes how the Vatican bureaucracy, like most bureaucracies, finds a way to avoid full responsibility by anyone :

"    There is no separate written order by Bertone to stop a canonical trial (with or without his superior's  agreement or understanding, ie Ratzinger) but there are minutes that specify what measures are "to be followed."

    There is no written order to Brundage to stop a trial, instead there are those same minutes he read, and a report of a status conference on the Murphy case with no mention of a trial in progress – just administrative measures related to "precepts.""

For clarifying details of what went on at those meetings at the Vatican and compelling case that Weakland was pushing strongly at the end for a trial and the Vatican was pushing against can be read in Disco's responses (7,8 and 9) here.

[Main Street]

Going round in circles here lads. The New York Times have been proven to be less than truthful with the facts to say the least and certainly don't have any evidence to suggest the Pope was engaged in a cover-up. Back to the drawing board, but no doubt I'm sure there'll be another equally spurious claim coming along soon. See you then...

The only thing proved here is that you accept the quoted word of a canon law judge as the one true account
and you got the information contained in his account which excused Murphy from a defrocking mixed up as a reason to explain why criminal charges were not pressed by the DA.

[give her dixie]

Did anyone catch this nonsense today from the popes personal preacher?
Now, this excuse takes some beating.

Pope Benedict XVI's personal preacher on Friday likened accusations against the pope and the Catholic church in the sex abuse scandal to "collective violence" suffered by the Jews.

Reaction from Jewish groups and victims of clerical sex abuse ranged from skepticism to fury.

The Rev. Raniero Cantalamessa said in a Good Friday homily with the pope listening in St. Peter's Basilica that a Jewish friend wrote to him to say the accusations remind him of the "more shameful aspects of anti-Semitism."

So far I haven't seen St. Peter burning, nor were there outbursts of violence against Catholic priests. ... The Vatican is now trying to turn the perpetrators into victims.

- Stephan Kramer, general-secretary of Germany's Central Council of Jews
The 82-year-old pontiff looked weary as he sat near the central altar during the early evening prayer service before he was scheduled to take part in a candlelit Way of the Cross procession near the Colosseum that commemorates Christ's suffering before his crucifixion.

The Vatican later officially distanced itself from Cantalamessa 's Good Friday remarks.

Vatican spokesman Rev. Federico Lombardi contacted The Associated Press in Rome to say such parallelism can lead to misunderstandings. He said the comments did not represent the position of the Church and that Cantalamessa was not speaking as a Vatican official.

Thousands of Holy Week pilgrims were in St. Peter's Square as the church defends itself against accusations that Benedict had a role in covering up sex abuse cases.

The "coincidence" that Passover falls in the same week as Easter celebrations prompted Cantalamessa to think about Jews, said the preacher, a Franciscan who offers reflections at Vatican Easter and Advent services.

"They know from experience what it means to be victims of collective violence and also because of this they are quick to recognize the recurring symptoms," the preacher said.

Stephan Kramer, general-secretary of Germany's Central Council of Jews, said Cantalamessa's remarks were "a so-far-unheard-of insolence."

"It is repulsive, obscene and most of all offensive toward all abuse victims as well as to all the victims of the Holocaust," Kramer said. "So far I haven't seen St. Peter burning, nor were there outbursts of violence against Catholic priests. I'm without words. The Vatican is now trying to turn the perpetrators into victims."

Rabbi Gary Greenebaum, U.S. director of interreligious relations for the American Jewish Committee, called the comments "an unfortunate use of language."

"The collective violence against the Jews resulted in the death of 6 million, while the collective violence spoken of here has not led to murder and destruction, but perhaps character assault," Greenebaum said.

Quoting from the letter from the Jewish friend, who wasn't identified by Cantalamessa, the preacher said that he was following "with indignation the violent and concentric attacks against the church, the pope and all the faithful of the whole world."

"The use of stereotypes, the passing from personal responsibility and guilt to a collective guilt remind me of the more shameful aspects of anti-Semitism," Cantalamessa said his friend wrote him.

In the sermon, he referred to the sexual abuse of children by clergy, saying "unfortunately, not a few elements of the clergy are stained" by the violence. But Cantalamessa said he didn't want to dwell on the abuse of children, saying "there is sufficient talk outside of here."

Peter Isely, the Milwaukee-based director of SNAP, the Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests, denounced the anti-Semitism analogy as "reckless and irresponsible."

"They're sitting in the papal palace, they're experiencing a little discomfort, and they're going to compare themselves to being rounded up or lined up and sent in cattle cars to Auschwitz?" he said. "You cannot be serious."

Benedict didn't speak after the homily, but, in a tired-sounding voice, chanted prayers. He leaned up to remove a red cloth covering a tall crucifix, which was passed to him by an aide. He took off his shoes, knelt and prayed before the cross.

The head of Germany's Roman Catholic bishops said earlier in an unusually forthright Good Friday statement that the church in the pope's homeland failed to help victims of clerical sex abuse because it wanted to protect its reputation.

Clerics have neglected helping abuse victims by a "wrongly intended desire to protect the church's reputation," Archbishop Robert Zollitsch of Freiburg said.

The news about sexual and physical abuse of children by priests and other employees leaves the church with "sadness, horror and shame," he said.

Reports of new cases have been cropping up almost daily in neighboring Austria, where the country's top Catholic, Cardinal Christoph Schoenborn, held a service for victims and acknowledged church guilt in the controversy this week.

Austria's Platform Of Those Affected By Church Violence — a group that includes victims, psychologists, psychiatrists and lawyers — said about 150 people had called a new hot line for victims of abuse by clergy and church workers, with about a third claiming they had been sexually abused and the rest reporting physical or verbal abuse.

In 1980, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, the future pope, allowed a pedophile priest to be transferred from the northwestern city of Essen to undergo therapy in Munich, where he was then archbishop.

The Munich archdiocese says Benedict wasn't involved in a lower-ranking official's later decision to allow the priest to return to pastoral work. The Rev. Peter Hullermann went on to work with youths again and was sentenced for sexual abuse in 1986.

Germany's prestigious Regensburg Domspatzen boys choir once led by the pope's brother, the Rev. Georg Ratzinger, as well as the school that sends many students to the choir, also have faced allegations of sexual and more general physical abuse.

An Associated Press tally has documented 73 cases with allegations of sexual abuse by priests against minors over the past decade in Italy, with more than 235 victims.

Italian prosecutor Pietro Forno said that once investigations have gotten under way, church officials have never tried to interfere or hinder the probes. But he added, "In the many years that I have dealt with this, never — and I stress, never — have I received a single complaint from bishops, or priests. And that's a bit odd."

[mylestheslasher]

Did anyone catch this nonsense today from the popes personal preacher?
Now, this excuse takes some beating.

Pope Benedict XVI's personal preacher on Friday likened accusations against the pope and the Catholic church in the sex abuse scandal to "collective violence" suffered by the Jews.

Reaction from Jewish groups and victims of clerical sex abuse ranged from skepticism to fury.

The Rev. Raniero Cantalamessa said in a Good Friday homily with the pope listening in St. Peter's Basilica that a Jewish friend wrote to him to say the accusations remind him of the "more shameful aspects of anti-Semitism."

So far I haven't seen St. Peter burning, nor were there outbursts of violence against Catholic priests. ... The Vatican is now trying to turn the perpetrators into victims.

- Stephan Kramer, general-secretary of Germany's Central Council of Jews
The 82-year-old pontiff looked weary as he sat near the central altar during the early evening prayer service before he was scheduled to take part in a candlelit Way of the Cross procession near the Colosseum that commemorates Christ's suffering before his crucifixion.

The Vatican later officially distanced itself from Cantalamessa 's Good Friday remarks.

Vatican spokesman Rev. Federico Lombardi contacted The Associated Press in Rome to say such parallelism can lead to misunderstandings. He said the comments did not represent the position of the Church and that Cantalamessa was not speaking as a Vatican official.

Thousands of Holy Week pilgrims were in St. Peter's Square as the church defends itself against accusations that Benedict had a role in covering up sex abuse cases.

The "coincidence" that Passover falls in the same week as Easter celebrations prompted Cantalamessa to think about Jews, said the preacher, a Franciscan who offers reflections at Vatican Easter and Advent services.

"They know from experience what it means to be victims of collective violence and also because of this they are quick to recognize the recurring symptoms," the preacher said.

Stephan Kramer, general-secretary of Germany's Central Council of Jews, said Cantalamessa's remarks were "a so-far-unheard-of insolence."

"It is repulsive, obscene and most of all offensive toward all abuse victims as well as to all the victims of the Holocaust," Kramer said. "So far I haven't seen St. Peter burning, nor were there outbursts of violence against Catholic priests. I'm without words. The Vatican is now trying to turn the perpetrators into victims."

Rabbi Gary Greenebaum, U.S. director of interreligious relations for the American Jewish Committee, called the comments "an unfortunate use of language."

"The collective violence against the Jews resulted in the death of 6 million, while the collective violence spoken of here has not led to murder and destruction, but perhaps character assault," Greenebaum said.

Quoting from the letter from the Jewish friend, who wasn't identified by Cantalamessa, the preacher said that he was following "with indignation the violent and concentric attacks against the church, the pope and all the faithful of the whole world."

"The use of stereotypes, the passing from personal responsibility and guilt to a collective guilt remind me of the more shameful aspects of anti-Semitism," Cantalamessa said his friend wrote him.

In the sermon, he referred to the sexual abuse of children by clergy, saying "unfortunately, not a few elements of the clergy are stained" by the violence. But Cantalamessa said he didn't want to dwell on the abuse of children, saying "there is sufficient talk outside of here."

Peter Isely, the Milwaukee-based director of SNAP, the Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests, denounced the anti-Semitism analogy as "reckless and irresponsible."

"They're sitting in the papal palace, they're experiencing a little discomfort, and they're going to compare themselves to being rounded up or lined up and sent in cattle cars to Auschwitz?" he said. "You cannot be serious."

Benedict didn't speak after the homily, but, in a tired-sounding voice, chanted prayers. He leaned up to remove a red cloth covering a tall crucifix, which was passed to him by an aide. He took off his shoes, knelt and prayed before the cross.

The head of Germany's Roman Catholic bishops said earlier in an unusually forthright Good Friday statement that the church in the pope's homeland failed to help victims of clerical sex abuse because it wanted to protect its reputation.

Clerics have neglected helping abuse victims by a "wrongly intended desire to protect the church's reputation," Archbishop Robert Zollitsch of Freiburg said.

The news about sexual and physical abuse of children by priests and other employees leaves the church with "sadness, horror and shame," he said.

Reports of new cases have been cropping up almost daily in neighboring Austria, where the country's top Catholic, Cardinal Christoph Schoenborn, held a service for victims and acknowledged church guilt in the controversy this week.

Austria's Platform Of Those Affected By Church Violence — a group that includes victims, psychologists, psychiatrists and lawyers — said about 150 people had called a new hot line for victims of abuse by clergy and church workers, with about a third claiming they had been sexually abused and the rest reporting physical or verbal abuse.

In 1980, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, the future pope, allowed a pedophile priest to be transferred from the northwestern city of Essen to undergo therapy in Munich, where he was then archbishop.

The Munich archdiocese says Benedict wasn't involved in a lower-ranking official's later decision to allow the priest to return to pastoral work. The Rev. Peter Hullermann went on to work with youths again and was sentenced for sexual abuse in 1986.

Germany's prestigious Regensburg Domspatzen boys choir once led by the pope's brother, the Rev. Georg Ratzinger, as well as the school that sends many students to the choir, also have faced allegations of sexual and more general physical abuse.

An Associated Press tally has documented 73 cases with allegations of sexual abuse by priests against minors over the past decade in Italy, with more than 235 victims.

Italian prosecutor Pietro Forno said that once investigations have gotten under way, church officials have never tried to interfere or hinder the probes. But he added, "In the many years that I have dealt with this, never — and I stress, never — have I received a single complaint from bishops, or priests. And that's a bit odd."

Dixie, they are rotten to the core. Our moral leaders have no morals at all. No amount of this putrid muck suprises me anymore.

[orangeman]

It's getting worse as time goes by and the sooner they realise that new leaders are needed the better.


Yes the existing leaders might be good men, but they're tainted and guilty at least by their failure to act historically.

This new PSNI team that has been set up could lead to further embarassment.

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

Sinead O'Connor  really had a go at him on the Late Late Show tonight.