Is the Pope guilty of sexual abuse cover up?

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

Sinead O'Connor  really had a go at him on the Late Late Show tonight.

I feel sorry for her. The woman isn't well.

I know what ya mean, she is bi-polar, which can't be easy.

[muppet]

It's called Narcissism http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/features/2009/0929/1224255430943.html

Ireland became a breeding ground for self-serving narcissists

KATE HOLMQUIST

GIVE ME A BREAK: NARCISSISTS ARE some of the loneliest people in the world, except they never learn how lonely they are until it's too late. Narcissists, either as individuals or in an elite group, are convinced that the world revolves around them and they're very good at pulling others into their game, especially if they have financial or moral power. When their behaviour tests the patience of even the most willing enablers, narcissists have a trump card – they appear needy and vulnerable.

So when caught out in wrongdoing, they demand generosity, special favours and tolerance. In the rare event that someone stands up to them, they brand their accusers as lacking in empathy, when it's the narcissist who actually cannot empathise with others.

Has no one any idea what they've been having to deal with? Is nobody but them actually living in the real world? Can no one understand the sheer stress involved in being the centre of the universe?

If that doesn't work, narcissists avoid blame by blaming everyone else and are very good at producing scapegoats and fall guys. A narcissist never experiences guilt because he's like the pampered dog who eats your dinner and allows itself to be chastised, only to cuddle up to you afterwards and steal your breakfast the next morning.

A narcissist's needs come before everyone else's, and when these needs are met, the world is better off because the narcissist knows what's best for everyone – whether it's pulling together the money for a vanity project that will never see the light of day or something more sinister, such as an abuse of people or power.

Anyone in thrall to a narcissist has usually accepted an emotional or economic payoff, because narcissists are good at buying people or gaining their loyalty on credit.

When an entire institution is narcissistic, most people involved with it may believe that if narcissistic needs are unmet, the world will stop turning. At its most basic, people fear for their jobs. If the narcissist is running a religion, the potential whistleblower may even fear hell.

What's so dangerous about narcissists is this ability to convince people that if they fall from grace, so will everyone else.

Narcissists and their institutions believe that everything they own, no matter how expensive or outlandish, has been earned, whether or not that's the case.

Like the Russian prince in need of just one more diamond encrusted Fabergé egg, the narcissist in public life can convince others that without that egg, the world will implode.

Say you live in not just one fabulous house, but several. You haven't got just one enviable car, you have a fleet. These possessions are no less than you deserve and they are but worthy examples of your (arguably) refined taste, which in itself makes the world a better place – can't anyone see that?

Without people providing an example at the very top, what does everyone else have to aspire to? Narcissists always travel first class because they deserve it, they spend more on clothing and personal grooming, they dine in the finest establishments because all of these things are not meant to please them personally – they are actually generous acts in themselves because they raise the status of everything associated with them, such as Ireland Inc.

Narcissists are impossible to win an argument with. They're adept at turning criticism on its head by speaking of their humble roots and their struggles to lift themselves up from the bottom to the pinnacle of achievement. They are convinced that they are a fine example to others.

Narcissists can be irresistibly charming and are often surrounded by enablers, who lose their own identities and values by becoming wrapped up in the narcissist's world, like the backstage wardrobe mistress who puts up with abuse because she gets the star's cast-offs.

Psychiatrists and psychologists debate what gives the narcissist this grandiose sense of entitlement. Is it an accident of genetics or the environment?

Ask a narcissist what made them that way and they can't tell you because they're not narcissists, are they?

Psychiatrically definable narcissism is relatively rare; people and institutions whose behaviour borders on it are not, particularly when given the circumstances in which to grow. And these days it's running like weeds gone wild. The economic boom encouraged narcissism like top-grade organic compost.

The "because I'm worth it" mantra wasn't just from a shampoo commercial, it was a personal statement of empowerment. Narcissists convinced non-narcissists that overspending on luxuries while others were starved of the basics made sense because weren't they lifting everybody up with them and – famous last words "providing jobs".

All of this Galway Tent, fake tan, champagne first-class living was contagiously good because it made Ireland Inc appear successful to the outside world. The outside world was laughing at the ostentation, but never mind that.

Most people don't laugh when dealing with narcissists – these people and institutions are too powerful. Don't dare to criticise publicly unless you're prepared for the worst. A narcissist will throw it right back at you, and because you were an enabler caught up in their selfish world, some of it will probably stick.

[Ulick]

The only thing proved here is that you accept the quoted word of a canon law judge as the one true account
and you got the information contained in his account which excused Murphy from a defrocking mixed up as a reason to explain why criminal charges were not pressed by the DA.

No the thing proved here are that there are conflicting views of the events and therefore the NY Times article can't be accepted as unchallenged evidence that the Pope was engaged in a cover-up. For that to stick much more evidence is required.

[give her dixie]

Ulick, how about you provide some evidence that the pope didn't cover up abuse scandals?

[longrunsthefox]

Sinead O'Connor  really had a go at him on the Late Late Show tonight.

I feel sorry for her. The woman isn't well.

Well or not, she has been totally right about the Catholic Church and its leaders for a long time. I thought she did wel last night and it seems Brady or any other bishop hasn't the balls to go on the show when invited. 

[stew]

It's called Narcissism http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/features/2009/0929/1224255430943.html

Ireland became a breeding ground for self-serving narcissists

KATE HOLMQUIST

GIVE ME A BREAK: NARCISSISTS ARE some of the loneliest people in the world, except they never learn how lonely they are until it's too late. Narcissists, either as individuals or in an elite group, are convinced that the world revolves around them and they're very good at pulling others into their game, especially if they have financial or moral power. When their behaviour tests the patience of even the most willing enablers, narcissists have a trump card – they appear needy and vulnerable.

So when caught out in wrongdoing, they demand generosity, special favours and tolerance. In the rare event that someone stands up to them, they brand their accusers as lacking in empathy, when it's the narcissist who actually cannot empathise with others.

Has no one any idea what they've been having to deal with? Is nobody but them actually living in the real world? Can no one understand the sheer stress involved in being the centre of the universe?

If that doesn't work, narcissists avoid blame by blaming everyone else and are very good at producing scapegoats and fall guys. A narcissist never experiences guilt because he's like the pampered dog who eats your dinner and allows itself to be chastised, only to cuddle up to you afterwards and steal your breakfast the next morning.

A narcissist's needs come before everyone else's, and when these needs are met, the world is better off because the narcissist knows what's best for everyone – whether it's pulling together the money for a vanity project that will never see the light of day or something more sinister, such as an abuse of people or power.

Anyone in thrall to a narcissist has usually accepted an emotional or economic payoff, because narcissists are good at buying people or gaining their loyalty on credit.

When an entire institution is narcissistic, most people involved with it may believe that if narcissistic needs are unmet, the world will stop turning. At its most basic, people fear for their jobs. If the narcissist is running a religion, the potential whistleblower may even fear hell.

What's so dangerous about narcissists is this ability to convince people that if they fall from grace, so will everyone else.

Narcissists and their institutions believe that everything they own, no matter how expensive or outlandish, has been earned, whether or not that's the case.

Like the Russian prince in need of just one more diamond encrusted Fabergé egg, the narcissist in public life can convince others that without that egg, the world will implode.

Say you live in not just one fabulous house, but several. You haven't got just one enviable car, you have a fleet. These possessions are no less than you deserve and they are but worthy examples of your (arguably) refined taste, which in itself makes the world a better place – can't anyone see that?

Without people providing an example at the very top, what does everyone else have to aspire to? Narcissists always travel first class because they deserve it, they spend more on clothing and personal grooming, they dine in the finest establishments because all of these things are not meant to please them personally – they are actually generous acts in themselves because they raise the status of everything associated with them, such as Ireland Inc.

Narcissists are impossible to win an argument with. They're adept at turning criticism on its head by speaking of their humble roots and their struggles to lift themselves up from the bottom to the pinnacle of achievement. They are convinced that they are a fine example to others.

Narcissists can be irresistibly charming and are often surrounded by enablers, who lose their own identities and values by becoming wrapped up in the narcissist's world, like the backstage wardrobe mistress who puts up with abuse because she gets the star's cast-offs.

Psychiatrists and psychologists debate what gives the narcissist this grandiose sense of entitlement. Is it an accident of genetics or the environment?

Ask a narcissist what made them that way and they can't tell you because they're not narcissists, are they?

Psychiatrically definable narcissism is relatively rare; people and institutions whose behaviour borders on it are not, particularly when given the circumstances in which to grow. And these days it's running like weeds gone wild. The economic boom encouraged narcissism like top-grade organic compost.

The "because I'm worth it" mantra wasn't just from a shampoo commercial, it was a personal statement of empowerment. Narcissists convinced non-narcissists that overspending on luxuries while others were starved of the basics made sense because weren't they lifting everybody up with them and – famous last words "providing jobs".

All of this Galway Tent, fake tan, champagne first-class living was contagiously good because it made Ireland Inc appear successful to the outside world. The outside world was laughing at the ostentation, but never mind that.

Most people don't laugh when dealing with narcissists – these people and institutions are too powerful. Don't dare to criticise publicly unless you're prepared for the worst. A narcissist will throw it right back at you, and because you were an enabler caught up in their selfish world, some of it will probably stick.

Speaking of narcissists................................. This is a gem i received from that ballix gallsman.

Perhaps idiot was a bit strong and for that I apologise. To say our opinions differ on lots of things would be an understatement and I'm sure this won't be the last time we clash!

However, I would ask that when I'm having great fun toying about with some of the village idiots you don't join in and reinforce their belief that they're in some way great intellects of the board.

Yes, I am this cocky before you ask. Has no one told you? I'm a f**king genius.

A man who does not have the courage of his convictions is no man at all.

Toying with thevillage idiots me arse, gallsman you are a tool and pm me no more.

[longrunsthefox]

It's called Narcissism http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/features/2009/0929/1224255430943.html

Ireland became a breeding ground for self-serving narcissists

KATE HOLMQUIST

GIVE ME A BREAK: NARCISSISTS ARE some of the loneliest people in the world, except they never learn how lonely they are until it's too late. Narcissists, either as individuals or in an elite group, are convinced that the world revolves around them and they're very good at pulling others into their game, especially if they have financial or moral power. When their behaviour tests the patience of even the most willing enablers, narcissists have a trump card – they appear needy and vulnerable.

So when caught out in wrongdoing, they demand generosity, special favours and tolerance. In the rare event that someone stands up to them, they brand their accusers as lacking in empathy, when it's the narcissist who actually cannot empathise with others.

Has no one any idea what they've been having to deal with? Is nobody but them actually living in the real world? Can no one understand the sheer stress involved in being the centre of the universe?

If that doesn't work, narcissists avoid blame by blaming everyone else and are very good at producing scapegoats and fall guys. A narcissist never experiences guilt because he's like the pampered dog who eats your dinner and allows itself to be chastised, only to cuddle up to you afterwards and steal your breakfast the next morning.

A narcissist's needs come before everyone else's, and when these needs are met, the world is better off because the narcissist knows what's best for everyone – whether it's pulling together the money for a vanity project that will never see the light of day or something more sinister, such as an abuse of people or power.

Anyone in thrall to a narcissist has usually accepted an emotional or economic payoff, because narcissists are good at buying people or gaining their loyalty on credit.

When an entire institution is narcissistic, most people involved with it may believe that if narcissistic needs are unmet, the world will stop turning. At its most basic, people fear for their jobs. If the narcissist is running a religion, the potential whistleblower may even fear hell.

What's so dangerous about narcissists is this ability to convince people that if they fall from grace, so will everyone else.

Narcissists and their institutions believe that everything they own, no matter how expensive or outlandish, has been earned, whether or not that's the case.

Like the Russian prince in need of just one more diamond encrusted Fabergé egg, the narcissist in public life can convince others that without that egg, the world will implode.

Say you live in not just one fabulous house, but several. You haven't got just one enviable car, you have a fleet. These possessions are no less than you deserve and they are but worthy examples of your (arguably) refined taste, which in itself makes the world a better place – can't anyone see that?

Without people providing an example at the very top, what does everyone else have to aspire to? Narcissists always travel first class because they deserve it, they spend more on clothing and personal grooming, they dine in the finest establishments because all of these things are not meant to please them personally – they are actually generous acts in themselves because they raise the status of everything associated with them, such as Ireland Inc.

Narcissists are impossible to win an argument with. They're adept at turning criticism on its head by speaking of their humble roots and their struggles to lift themselves up from the bottom to the pinnacle of achievement. They are convinced that they are a fine example to others.

Narcissists can be irresistibly charming and are often surrounded by enablers, who lose their own identities and values by becoming wrapped up in the narcissist's world, like the backstage wardrobe mistress who puts up with abuse because she gets the star's cast-offs.

Psychiatrists and psychologists debate what gives the narcissist this grandiose sense of entitlement. Is it an accident of genetics or the environment?

Ask a narcissist what made them that way and they can't tell you because they're not narcissists, are they?

Psychiatrically definable narcissism is relatively rare; people and institutions whose behaviour borders on it are not, particularly when given the circumstances in which to grow. And these days it's running like weeds gone wild. The economic boom encouraged narcissism like top-grade organic compost.

The "because I'm worth it" mantra wasn't just from a shampoo commercial, it was a personal statement of empowerment. Narcissists convinced non-narcissists that overspending on luxuries while others were starved of the basics made sense because weren't they lifting everybody up with them and – famous last words "providing jobs".

All of this Galway Tent, fake tan, champagne first-class living was contagiously good because it made Ireland Inc appear successful to the outside world. The outside world was laughing at the ostentation, but never mind that.

Most people don't laugh when dealing with narcissists – these people and institutions are too powerful. Don't dare to criticise publicly unless you're prepared for the worst. A narcissist will throw it right back at you, and because you were an enabler caught up in their selfish world, some of it will probably stick.

Speaking of narcissists................................. This is a gem i received from that ballix gallsman.

Perhaps idiot was a bit strong and for that I apologise. To say our opinions differ on lots of things would be an understatement and I'm sure this won't be the last time we clash!

However, I would ask that when I'm having great fun toying about with some of the village idiots you don't join in and reinforce their belief that they're in some way great intellects of the board.

Yes, I am this cocky before you ask. Has no one told you? I'm a f**king genius.

A man who does not have the courage of his convictions is no man at all.

Toying with thevillage idiots me arse, gallsman you are a tool and pm me no more.

Does PM not mean PERSONAL message? Bad form posting it here instead of answering back with a PM. Anyway, how do we know you didn't make that up?

[pintsofguinness]

Does PM not mean PERSONAL message? Bad form posting it here instead of answering back with a PM.

will you get a grip

[ardmhachaabu]

Class, 

The cake is ready when it's dished out!*! 

At least when it's my wife cooking*

[Tyrones own]

Does PM not mean PERSONAL message? Bad form posting it here instead of answering back with a PM. Anyway, how do we know you didn't make that up?

fcuk it Stew... can't win for loosing with the intellects on here

[gallsman]

Ah Stew, up to your old tricks I see.

Why don't you post up the rest of our private conversation and show everyone where my comments came from and their tongue in cheek nature?! No? Afraid to be seen as a tosser again?

While you're at it, why don't you go ahead and repost whatever you deleted from the previous page?

You are a complete and utter twat. Go ahead and report me for calling you a twat, I don't particularly care.

You can also take your patronising, smug, self-superior attitude on this board and shove it up your hole.

[pintsofguinness]

sure why don't you post it galls?

[gallsman]

Because my sent messages clears things every two weeks or so.

[Ulick]

Ulick, how about you provide some evidence that the pope didn't cover up abuse scandals?

Ah thank you for this opportunity dixie. I have never said he didn't  cover up abuse scandals, only that there is no evidence to say that he has. A subtle but important difference - innocent until proven guilty an all that - even for Catholics.

[Main Street]

The only thing proved here is that you accept the quoted word of a canon law judge as the one true account
and you got the information contained in his account which excused Murphy from a defrocking mixed up as a reason to explain why criminal charges were not pressed by the DA.

No the thing proved here are that there are conflicting views of the events and therefore the NY Times article can't be accepted as unchallenged evidence that the Pope was engaged in a cover-up. For that to stick much more evidence is required.

True, it can't be accepted as unchallenged evidence, because it is challenged 

Ratzinger has not lent his name to any document.
Are the  document's content challenged?
http://documents.nytimes.com/reverend-lawrence-c-murphy-abuse-case#document/p75
Even to the end, the Church hierarchy wanted Murphy squirelled away into the ground unnoticed.

I am satisfied that there is enough evidence implicating Ratzinger's Vatican office directly in the cover up over the decades.
As a reasonable man, I can can reasonably assume Ratzinger not only knew but directed the operations of his office.
All canon law charges against a priest discipline would come to his office.
His office was concerned with directing the application of Canon Law. The application of Canon law on the sex abuse issue in the catholic Church was an instrument to maintain and preserve secrecy, was the framework for a cover up and used to actively stonewall against attempts by criminal prosecutors to gain evidence. The application of Canon Law, in that manner, is proven beyond reasonable doubt. Credible inquiry  judges have said so, indeed even the US bishops have admitted it and many other credible witnesses have given their uncontested testimony on how Canon Law was applied.
In 2001 sex abuse cases  came directly to Ratzinger's office under terms of strict secrecy.

Interestingly Ratzinger's excuse in the Munich archdiocese was also
'it wasn't me, it was the deputy'
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,684970,00.html

'Church officials in Essen decided not to press charges and instead arranged for their brother to enter into therapy in Munich. In the letter of transfer, written to the Bavarian diocese that Ratzinger then led, there was a clear admission that the priest had sexually assaulted children in his former parish. Munich was not left in the dark about what kind of problem was on its way to them, the diocese of Essen said last week.

The Diocesan Council, chaired by Archbishop Ratzinger, dealt with the case in Munich on Jan. 15, 1980. According to the minutes of the meeting, "Point 5d" on the agenda saw the council discussing Peter H., who had requested "accommodation and support in a Munich parsonage for a while." The request also stated that "Chaplain H. will undergo psychological therapeutic treatment."

Ratzinger Knew Police Hadn't Been Informed

A policeman's son, Ratzinger was well aware that no one had notified the police and that everything had been handled by the Church internally. Neither he nor his diocese reported the case to the authorities. Instead, a brief, succinct statement concerning the chaplain's application was entered into the minutes: "The request is granted."

Barely two weeks later, H. had been assigned to pastoral duties again. Ratzinger allegedly knew nothing of this. But his office did receive a note from his vicar-general at the time, Gerhard Gruber, concerning the chaplain's placement in the Catholic parish of St. Johannes Evangelist in Munich. Did Ratzinger overlook the memo? Gruber now says that he alone was responsible'.