Good Priests, what have they done for you.

[Main Street]

On the contrary, the Bishops in the USA  in 2001 went a long way further than the Vatican or the Irish hierarchy
http://www.usccb.org/comm/restoretrust.shtml

and they formulated the guidelines of dealing with sexual abuse, not Cardinal Ratzingers tribunal clouded in canon law intricacies.

http://www.usccb.org/bishops/presidentialaddress.shtml
Presidential Address -- Bishop Wilton D. Gregory
Dallas, Texas -- June 13, 2002
The Catholic Church in the United States is in a very grave crisis, perhaps the gravest we have faced. This crisis is not about a lack of faith in God. In fact, those Catholics who live their faith actively day-by-day will tell you that their faith in God is not in jeopardy; it has indeed been tested by this crisis, but it is very much intact. The crisis, in truth, is about a profound loss of confidence by the faithful in our leadership as shepherds, because of our failures in addressing the crime of the sexual abuse of children and young people by priests and Church personnel

We are the ones, whether through ignorance or lack of vigilance, or – God forbid – with knowledge, who allowed priest abusers to remain in ministry and reassigned them to communities where they continued to abuse.
We are the ones who chose not to report the criminal actions of priests to the authorities, because the law did not require this.
We are the ones who worried more about the possibility of scandal than in bringing about the kind of openness that helps prevent abuse.
And we are the ones who, at times, responded to victims and their families as adversaries and not as suffering members of the Church.

etc etc

and contrast that text with the one from the then Pope to the American Bishops.
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/speeches/2002/april/documents/hf_jp-ii_spe_20020423_usa-cardinals_en.html
where the Pope called the abuse a crime and a sin but excused the actions of the child abuse protectors
"It is true that a generalized lack of knowledge of the nature of the problem and also at times the advice of clinical experts led Bishops to make decisions which subsequent events showed to be wrong."

[lynchbhoy]

I don't know what others want. I know what I expect as a standard,
honesty and openness.[/quote]
- you will get the same levels of openness as the health board etc. We'd like more but
thats the norm.

The Vatican was not only aware of the abuse but dictated the cover up which allowed
priests to continue with their sex abuse and frankly should there be a denial  of that
is just plain silly at this stage.
I expect them to acknowledge that the cover up allowing priests to continue abuse was a
crime, at least equal to the crime of the abusers.

I disagree that the vatican moved to cover this up, there was def knowledge, but the cover
up guilt remains with Irish catholic church colluders.

Not just 100% wrong , they were 100% part of the crime, the crime of omission. And even
your opinion as stated is not supported by the Vatican or Cardinal Brady.
The Catholic Church in Ireland and the Vatican in Rome do not acknowledge that their part
in the cover up was equal if not greater than the actual abuser. In fact the Pope has
regarded  it as a 'misplaced good intention'. A far distance from an acknowledgement.

I dont agree that the vatican shares equal blame in this, or in any cover up.

That has nothing to do with the sexual abuse. Sexual abuse thrived under the atmosphere of
fear. The use of the strap in educational institutions as a means of a discipline method
was in no way a deterrent to the sexual abuse, most probably the opposite.

I was not talking about the sexual abuse here, just modern behavious and lack of standards.

And they should be supported by the hierarchy  instead of being dragged into the mire of
canon law complicity in sex abuse crimes. And you may have noted as I have,  that there
are many priests and bishops who have come out against the dictates of the Hierarchy and
adopted the principle that the complicity was a crime and that the omission was a crime.

Dragging everyone into it including the innocents is most def not any solution, way forward
or even of any help to the victims.
that would have finger pointing at some innocent old priest who didnt publicly speak out and
have his name dragged through the mud too.
Let the us all and the judicial system concentrate on the guilty - the sex offenders and
those who went out of their way at the top of the tree in Ireland to protect them.

[theskull1]

I don't know what others want. I know what I expect as a standard,
honesty and openness.

- you will get the same levels of openness as the health board etc. We'd like more but
thats the norm.

Since when did anyone ever go to the health board for moral leadership?

You do of course make the valid point that cover ups happen in all walks of human life and the church is just one of many institutions who will go to whatever lengths possible to protect the institution from any harm. So it's very HUMAN in that regard. Not much influence from the heavanly father in their thinking taking place here.

Why anyone would look to these type of institutions for guidance as they ponder through life is just beyond my comprehension. I just don't get it. Brainwashing from an early age is the only explaination I can think of. Some must be more predisposed than others not to question such well formed mental constructs.

[lynchbhoy]

I don't know what others want. I know what I expect as a standard,
honesty and openness.

- you will get the same levels of openness as the health board etc. We'd like more but
thats the norm.

Since when did anyone ever go to the health board for moral leadership?

You do of course make the valid point that cover ups happen in all walks of human life and the church is just one of many institutions who will go to whatever lengths possible to protect the institution from any harm. So it's very HUMAN in that regard. Not much influence from the heavanly father in their thinking taking place here.

Why anyone would look to these type of institutions for guidance as they ponder through life is just beyond my comprehension. I just don't get it. Brainwashing from an early age is the only explaination I can think of. Some must be more predisposed than others not to question such well formed mental constructs.

not guidance, just examples.
could hav cited the GAA, irfu, fai, ifa etc etc as well as most of the large multi-nationals that wont air their dirty linen in public and deal with their own problems behind their own large and locked doors.
I picked out the health board as that example (as well as the bloody sunday one) affects human lives more directly.
Not brainwashing at all, just reality of how institutions handle their affairs/problems.
the Catholic church have done plenty wrong but, they are doing what everyone else does.
I am sure financial and precedence/implication reasons are why these people all do this.

anyhow, this still does not affect the grass roots priest and parish from the good work that it does. Some people say that the trocaire collections would be better spent at home than abroad...but thats another discussion

[theskull1]

Grass roots priests are just sheep when it comes to these scandals. They have displayed no courage by speaking out against the controlling hierarchy. Of course they're great guys for the jobs that they're trained for (weddings funerals christenings confession the sick etc) but when the difficult moral issues arise from within, really you would expect men of the cloth to consider what their hero jesus would have done and not think twice about speaking out with a loud voice about what the institution has been up to.

What does that say to you about these grass roots priests. Are you not in anyway disappointed in the way they stayed silent along with their masters?

[Main Street]

You are missing the pertinent point by a country mile, Lynchbhoy.

A good organisation in a serious criminal conspiracy of this nature is not excused from those criminal actions by a sign of the times excuse  when it helped create, maintain and sustain that ethos of untouchability.
How can it be said in a way that you can understand?
I suggest you read my linked address of the US bishop in 2002 from a previous post and compare it to the feeble excuses the Pope is still offering today, even compare it to the initial response of the hapless Cardinal Brady of recent days.
Certainly the US bishops in 2002 had no bones about admitting that they partook in a criminal conspiracy. I read no weighing up of good actions versus immoral actions, no feeble excuses, no excuses full stop.

Search deeper for moral strength my son

[RogerMilla]

It's a bit strange that the Bishops in America, Austria and even Germany all reacted to child abuse accusations in the same manner!!

Hmmm its almost as if they were taking orders from the same place....

[Maguire01]

could hav cited the GAA, irfu, fai, ifa etc etc as well as most of the large multi-nationals that wont air their dirty linen in public and deal with their own problems behind their own large and locked doors.

Criminal matters? As serious as sex abuse?

[theskull1]

All your doing TYP is exposing the truth that many human beings have betrayed children in the interests of protecting their friends and institutions reputation.

Those people who did such things have lost any authority and dignity and should they hang their heads in shame till the day they die. They should now not be given another chance to lead those orginisations after handing out a limp apology. It's over for them (and that includes those who turned a blind eye leaving others to act) when you think about it.

Would you not agree?

[Puckoon]

All your doing TYP is exposing the truth that many human beings have betrayed children in the interests of protecting their friends and institutions reputation.

Exactly.  The Church is not the only organisation with access to children which has had problems with some of its members betraying the trust placed in them by society in general and in particular by parents.

I think the initial point made by Maguire still stands.

One one hand we have an entire organisation - where non participating members were fully aware of what was being done to young children and stood by and let it continue.

Even in the swimming paedophile ring - one of them was a priest!

[muppet]

All your doing TYP is exposing the truth that many human beings have betrayed children in the interests of protecting their friends and institutions reputation.

Exactly.  The Church is not the only organisation with access to children which has had problems with some of its members betraying the trust placed in them by society in general and in particular by parents.

Gary O'Toole blew the lid on swimming abuse and while it wasn't perfectly handled the problem was dealt with magnificently in  comparison to the church's decades of heel dragging. Can anyone name a clerical equivalent of O'Toole who blew the lid on his own organisation?

[muppet]

Some scandals have been forgotten in our haste to condemn others

Not a bad article by Liam Clarke linked to Sunday's gospel

You are right, we are all sinners so we should keep our mouths shut about pedophile priests.

[Puckoon]

Some scandals have been forgotten in our haste to condemn others

Not a bad article by Liam Clarke linked to Sunday's gospel

to quote

"The whole of society has failed child-abuse victims. Many who rush to condemn shy away from confronting the truth when it touches their own interests. To adapt the biblical story, those who live in glass houses should not throw the first stone."



This is really what it has boiled down to? Who is trying to kid who with that kind of nonsense. It isnt a bad article in that it highlights other situations in which child abuse was dumbed down. If this is what protectors of the church need to wheel out however to play the "everyone is responsible card" its somewhat pathetic.

That kind of tripe argument wouldnt fly from a pupil in school uniform who found himself in a headmasters office for stealing sweets from a shop at lunch time along with other pupils - how on earth is it relevant in the principles of child sex abuse cover up?

[theskull1]

My point is being lost.  It is that we need to take a balanced but vigilant and intolerant view of the sickness we have in our society which is the abuse of the most vunerable, particularly by those in positions of trust, and the willingness to brush it under the carpet. We need to truly evaluate how we value our children, what are we putting before them?

These are the shepherds of many sheep who rely on them for moral guidance. Are you really telling me that you could listen to Brady for instance and take on board what he is preaching about after what he has been part of for over 30 years?

I don't understand the rest

[Main Street]

My point is being lost.  It is that we need to take a balanced but vigilant and intolerant view of the sickness we have in our society which is the abuse of the most vunerable, particularly by those in positions of trust, and the willingness to brush it under the carpet.

Your point is lost because it is airy fairy and irrelevant to the pertinent issues.
If the Vatican and the Irish hierarchy had followed the lead set by the US bishops some 8 years ago there would be no threads like this.  We would all be moving forward.
First you have to realise that the cover up was a crime, when you get past that obstacle
then throw the Pope's letter into the bin. The Vatican is irrelevant here. The US bishops ignored the Vatican and came clean.
I don't know what the problem is in the irish hierarchy.
I now suspect you have a leader in Brady who can't lead the church out of this. He may be sound but he is not a leader. He has no perspective of what has happened and he does not know the way forward.
If so, put him out to pasture.
I suspect the Bishops are not a united bunch, I guess they don't communicate, some of the blackguards amongst them have prevented a united front and have held others back. One of the Bishops needs to take the lead, prepare a statement, gather signatures, force out the rest.  A night of the long croziers.