The Poppy

[johnneycool]

Anyone participate in the minutes silence this morning at 11am?

Have to say i forgot about it but was 'shushed' by a work colleague as they were listening to big ben, so I started reciting the angelus and surprised myself how much of it i knew!

[Canalman]

Ah the arguments nearly over for 2009. Can we please agree to disagree here so we don't have to go through this again in 2010.
For what it's worth I have only seen 1 person wearing a poppy here in Dublin, a lady wearing one last week in Liffey Valley SC. Haven't been to town for a while though.

[thebigfella]

Ah the arguments nearly over for 2009. Can we please agree to disagree here so we don't have to go through this again in 2010.
For what it's worth I have only seen 1 person wearing a poppy here in Dublin, a lady wearing one last week in Liffey Valley SC. Haven't been to town for a while though.

I seen 4 guys in suits in a very suspicious black saloon car this morning on my way to work wearing them.

[Alco Pup]

We were just made to observe the two minutes silence here in work - wtf???

Was ragin about it!  Effectively we were being railroaded into marking something that we might not agree with. How can they do that?!?!?!

[Evil Genius]

More like two cousins knocking lumps out of each other, then when one cousin is getting his ass kicked he calls in his best friend and they end up killing the other cousin.

I have read some crap on this thread, but for its utter crassness, that (mis)characterisation of WWI takes it to a whole new level.

By "two cousins" and a "best friend", I assume you mean the British and Germans, plus the USA, as though they were the only combatants involved. Have you never wondered why the conflict was called "The Great War" or "World War One", rather than eg "The Anglo-German War" or somesuch?

In fact, the Great War involved the collision of most of the world's great empires of the time, most notably the Austro-Hungarian, Russian, German, French, Ottoman and British, plus other major countries like Italy and China, as well as a host of smaller states. Consequently, the war was fought over the whole of Europe and beyond, with the Western Front (Flanders etc) only being a part - and not always the bloodiest part at that. For example, I saw reference recently to the Soca Valley Battles/Isonzo Front between Italy and Austria. I thought I was reasonably clued up about WWI, but must confess I was only barely aware of those names. Yet it turns out that during a sequence of 12 offensives between 1915 and 1917 in what is now modern-day Slovenia, over a third of a million troops died.

Similarly, there were huge losses suffered on countless other battlefields, of which those who take only an Anglo-centric view are not even aware. Therefore to talk about WWI being some sort of family spat between some Brits and Germans, eventually settled by the intervention of the Yanks etc, is about as accurate as the Hollywood depiction of WWII as essentially amounting to "John Wayne beating up a bunch of suicidal Nips in the Pacific (Oh, and a lot of Jews died somewhere, too)" 

In fact, at the start of the 20th Century, the British were (typically) uninterested in events on Continental Europe, somewhere where they had no significant possessions and where they hadn't fought any major battles since helping topple Napoleon a century earlier.

Consequently, their involvement in WWI followed a complex series of events, following a crack in the Hapsburg Empire emerging at Sarajevo, which then drew in the Russians, Germans and Turks, before spilling over into France and the Low Countries. As such, Britain felt itself compelled to join in to defend two strategic interests: namely the threat to its overseas Empire posed by the newly expansionist German Empire (especially via its greatly enlarged Navy), plus Britain's formal alliance with France, whose borders were threatened by the Germans.

The first world war will be seen in history books long after we depart as a senseless unnecessary war fought by two administrations who had little or no respect for their nations.

The conduct of the War by the Governments and Generals etc was undoubtedly often callous in the extreme, but that should not colour the debate as to why the War was fought, still less any analysis the differing motives of the many and various participants for getting involved.

Standing up in the name of small nations my arse.

Nor should it distort or betray the motives of individual soldiers and sailors etc who joined up. In the case of the UK (including Ireland), it is undeniable that the fate of "poor little Belgium" was key for many volunteers, as stories of German atrocities, both genuine and propagandised, began to gain widespread currency.

As for those hundreds of thousands of Irishmen and women who were involved, their motives were many and varied. some simply joined up to "serve King and Country", others (Ulster Volunteers/Carson and Irish Volunteers/Redmond) to further their respective cause in the Home Rule question. Still more saw it as noble to stick up for little nations who were being invaded by ("uncivilised") Empires, or even out of religious conviction i.e. "Catholic countries" like France and Belgium being threatened by those "vicious Huns" etc. Still more joined up because they needed the money, or because their Pals were enlisting, or even out of a sense of adventure (though these latter were soon to be grievously disabused when they learned what their "adventure" really involved).

In any case, however, it is not for us, nearly 100 years later to sneer at them or detract from their motives or heroism.

Which, in fact, is what Remembrance Day and the Poppy etc should be all about.
For whatever the rights or wrongs of the various conflicts which we have all witnessed over the last century, to wear a Poppy or remain silent for two minutes once a year is NOT designed to endorse these conflicts or show any measure of support for them. Rather it is simply to remember all those people who fought and died, in the sincere hope that those of us who have come later will never be required to repeat their sacrifice.

Which is why, for example, a German footballer (Ballack) playing for an English club (Chelsea) can wear a Poppy on his shirt at the weekend, just as his Chancellor (Merkel) can today lay a wreath at the Cenotaph of a former enemy (France):
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20091111/ts_afp/francegermanywwihistory

Indeed, as half the World pauses today to remember those who died, it sometimes seems that it is only in Ireland (and the environs of Parkhead?) where bitter, ignorant and prejudiced individuals fail utterly to recognise or admit the significance of the day. Then again, following the events of 8th November 1987 closer to home, some of us, sadly, already knew that...

P.S. I would have let your post pass, as a product of simple ignorance, until I read your later assertion that:
"I would have been a big fan of history in school and would have read my fair share of history books in relation to the era from 1800 up to the start of the cold war"
Therefore, if you really have read up your history of those events, but still come to your puerile, indeed offensive, conclusions, I can only deduce you to be motivated by a combination of bitterness, prejudice and stupidity.
Perhaps the next time you open a book, you might be advised to open your mind first...

[Cúig huaire]

EG, that is all well and good, but the question on everyones lips is are you wearing a poppy? 

[thewobbler]

well said Evil Genius.

[Evil Genius]

EG, that is all well and good, but the question on everyones lips is are you wearing a poppy? 

Yes.

And in case anyone is wondering, it is not as some kind of badge of identity or to make anyone else feel uncomfortable, still less as a "F**k You" gesture; rather it is (particularly) in memory of a good friend, plus (more generally) a number of other people.

[ziggysego]

EG, that is all well and good, but the question on everyones lips is are you wearing a poppy? 

Yes.

And in case anyone is wondering, it is not as some kind of badge of identity or to make anyone else feel uncomfortable, still less as a "F**k You" gesture;

I don't believe you

[Evil Genius]

EG, that is all well and good, but the question on everyones lips is are you wearing a poppy? 

Yes.

And in case anyone is wondering, it is not as some kind of badge of identity or to make anyone else feel uncomfortable, still less as a "F**k You" gesture;

I don't believe you

Well f**k You, then! 

[Gaoth Dobhair Abu]

Standing up in the name of small nations my arse.

Nor should it distort or betray the motives of individual soldiers and sailors etc who joined up. In the case of the UK (including Ireland), it is undeniable that the fate of "poor little Belgium" was key for many volunteers, as stories of German atrocities, both genuine and propagandised, began to gain widespread currency.

As for those hundreds of thousands of Irishmen and women who were involved, their motives were many and varied. some simply joined up to "serve King and Country", others (Ulster Volunteers/Carson and Irish Volunteers/Redmond) to further their respective cause in the Home Rule question. Still more saw it as noble to stick up for little nations who were being invaded by ("uncivilised") Empires, or even out of religious conviction i.e. "Catholic countries" like France and Belgium being threatened by those "vicious Huns" etc. Still more joined up because they needed the money, or because their Pals were enlisting, or even out of a sense of adventure (though these latter were soon to be grievously disabused when they learned what their "adventure" really involved).


Indeed, as half the World pauses today to remember those who died, it sometimes seems that it is only in Ireland (and the environs of Parkhead?) where bitter, ignorant and prejudiced individuals fail utterly to recognise or admit the significance of the day.

EG you were doing so well then threw in that flowery, rose coloured guff (the bit in bold) about "poor little Belgium" and crap about Catholic countries and rubbish about Pals going off for adventure, try conscription.

Also you self righteous pompous arse, instead of Parkhead try The Falkirk Stadium. 

[deiseach]

Indeed, as half the World pauses today to remember those who died, it sometimes seems that it is only in Ireland (and the environs of Parkhead?) where bitter, ignorant and prejudiced individuals fail utterly to recognise or admit the significance of the day. Then again, following the events of 8th November 1987 closer to home, some of us, sadly, already knew that...

Even assuming that half the world does stop (doubtful), one must assume that the other half don't. I know Irish people have an inflated sense of our own importance on the world stage, but to equate us with 'half the world' . . .

[Evil Genius]

Standing up in the name of small nations my arse.

Nor should it distort or betray the motives of individual soldiers and sailors etc who joined up. In the case of the UK (including Ireland), it is undeniable that the fate of "poor little Belgium" was key for many volunteers, as stories of German atrocities, both genuine and propagandised, began to gain widespread currency.

As for those hundreds of thousands of Irishmen and women who were involved, their motives were many and varied. some simply joined up to "serve King and Country", others (Ulster Volunteers/Carson and Irish Volunteers/Redmond) to further their respective cause in the Home Rule question. Still more saw it as noble to stick up for little nations who were being invaded by ("uncivilised") Empires, or even out of religious conviction i.e. "Catholic countries" like France and Belgium being threatened by those "vicious Huns" etc. Still more joined up because they needed the money, or because their Pals were enlisting, or even out of a sense of adventure (though these latter were soon to be grievously disabused when they learned what their "adventure" really involved).


Indeed, as half the World pauses today to remember those who died, it sometimes seems that it is only in Ireland (and the environs of Parkhead?) where bitter, ignorant and prejudiced individuals fail utterly to recognise or admit the significance of the day.

EG you were doing so well then threw in that flowery, rose coloured guff (the bit in bold) about "poor little Belgium"

Let me see, now: Google "Poor Little Belgium" + "World War One" and this is the first entry:
http://www.nzhistory.net.nz/war/new-zealanders-in-belgium/fund-raising
Yep, the fate of the Belgians was a matter of concern even 12,000 miles away (they must have got a text message or something  )

   ...and crap about Catholic countries

Really? why not read the first three paragraphs of "Atrocities" from this study, specifically the allegations of "priests being strung up and used as church bell clappers, nuns being raped, and prisoners of war being crucified":
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=-EVdYq7oK_kC&pg=PA240&lpg=PA240&dq=Nuns,+rape,+WWI,+German+atrocities,+Belgium&source=bl&ots=P6505o-7UG&sig=GPYuXNVOzb-_PLNohAFLhSgLn40&hl=en&ei=2936Suj1IsnU4Qawvv2MAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CA8Q6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=&f=false
Whether actually true or completely false, such stories were widely believed and had a huge influence on large numbers of volunteers, with atrocities against Priests and Nuns having particular resonance in Ireland.

...and rubbish about Pals going off for adventure,

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/britain_wwone/pals_01.shtml

...try conscription.

Over one million men volunteered from the UK (including Ireland) in the first five months of the War alone. Conscription was not introduced in GB until 1916. And when referring specifically to Ireland, it should be noted that Conscription was never introduced here during WWI.

Also you self righteous pompous arse, instead of Parkhead try The Falkirk Stadium. 

Actually, I was referring to Remembrance Sunday 2008, when at their home fixture versus Motherwell, Celtic substituted a minutes "applause" for a minute's silence, since they knew it would be abused by a section of their support:
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/2008/11/08/scottish-premier-league-chiefs-blasted-by-veterans-over-minute-s-applause-for-war-dead-86908-20877794/

"And if. You know. Your history..." 

[Evil Genius]

Indeed, as half the World pauses today to remember those who died, it sometimes seems that it is only in Ireland (and the environs of Parkhead?) where bitter, ignorant and prejudiced individuals fail utterly to recognise or admit the significance of the day. Then again, following the events of 8th November 1987 closer to home, some of us, sadly, already knew that...

Even assuming that half the world does stop (doubtful), one must assume that the other half don't. I know Irish people have an inflated sense of our own importance on the world stage, but to equate us with 'half the world' . . .

I was not "equating" Ireland with half the world, rather I was contrasting it, in the same way as I would not equate, but might contrast eg the posters on this site with one dim individual who seems incapable of comprehending even simple concepts...

P.S. As regards observance of Remembrance Day generally, you may substitute whatever fraction of the world you like for my "half", since I was exagerrating for effect, but before you do, you might want to read the following:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8354016.stm
http://www.nationalpost.com/story.html?id=2209988
http://www.theage.com.au/national/tributes-for-nations-fallen-20091111-i9yq.html
http://cbs13.com/national/obama.veterans.day.2.1305174.html

[Gaoth Dobhair Abu]

And what is wrong with a minutes applause? Stinks of Poppy fasicism to me.

Your obviously passionate about the slaughter that was WW1, but your flowering up the "great" war with examples of this and that (seriously EG I don't have the time you seem to, to start going through your examples), I could also give examples of whole communities destroyed by WW1, also ask yourself the question, why was conscription brought in in Britian, Canada, Australia etc... would it have been that they had run out of people feeling sorry for Belgium or Pals going off together.
This great sacrifice that people keep harping on about re: Irish volunteers in WW1 is revisionism at its worst, the majority of these men went to the "front" for the reason that if they did Home Rule maybe granted or "Rome Rule" denied - infact rather then selfless acts these men made the ultimate sacrifice for all the wrong reasons.
Poor souls lied to by better educated men. Reminds me of the average US jarhead, being told that they are going to Iraq or Afganstan to protect "freedom".