Champions League/World Cup structure for Football AI

[GBXII]

Totally in favour of changing the current format for so many reasons, the main one being the complete lack of excitment. Also in favour of a champions league style format but with no seedings, which would leave more room for shocks. The GAA is so slow to change..

[Rossfan]

Eight random groups of four drawn out of a hat would make for a total dog's dinner of a thing altogether.
If a Champions League type thing was to be introduced you'd need to keep the Provincials and  have a 2nd Tier/Division or whatever. Perhaps allow a couple of the Tier 2 teams(Finalists?) into the  K O stages of your top tier Championship.
There's not too much wrong with the present system other than the fact that there are so many knock out rounds that it's impossible for Co Boards to plan Club Championships in advance.
Maybe tighten up the Provincials by playing them all in May; then Club Championships in June then an All Ireland series in July/August and free September for Club competitions?

[thewobbler]

I like the idea of 32 counties playing in a straight knockout. Given the historical provinces of Ireland, we could probably play one knockout tournament in each province, with the four winners making the semi-finals.

This would make the provincial championship something worth winning, would ensure local rivalries continue, and would allow club football to take the driving seat in most counties by the middle of June.

Madness, eh?

[Tyrone Dreamer]

I've posted this before in a few threads and still think it has some merits:

Probably the wrong thread but I have suggested one way of changing the season which I will out line below. Its only a rough idea but I think we need to think of better ways to get people interested from earlier in the year:

. Link the league and championship and split the championship into an A championship and B championship.
. Have 2 groups of 8 in the A championship and the same in b). There are a lot of teams who simply arent in a position to compete with the top teams.
. Each team plays each other once with the top four qualifying for the quarter finals with 1st in group 1 playing 4th in group 2 etc.
. Start the B championship earlier. This would mean that the winners of the B championship could have a playoff with one of the 4th placed teams for a quarter final place. Meaning every team in Ireland still has a chance of winning the All Ireland.
. Each team plays 3 home and 3 away games. Have a huge advertising blitz early in the year. Season tickets for home games and for all games will be available through clubs at reasonable prices and with oap/children tickets available. These will have 1st choice on quarter final tickets and on.
. Each team plays 1 neutral match possibly in Croke Park. Say have a few big Croke Park Weekends with double headers on Saturday and Sundays.
. Possibly organise the groups on a geographical basis so that there will be plenty of derbies and bigger crowds.
. There would be relegation/promotion each year between championships.
. Possibly have the provincial championships as a warm up.
. Start the championship in March/April. Matches will be played once every 2 weeks. Every other week will be set aside for club games with county players and there will be no exceptions. Club players need more games than once every 2 weeks so something would have to be considered here. Still think this would be better for clubs than the current situation.

This would be a huge shift from current situation and I'm not saying its the best way forward. But really think it makes no sense currently for most counties to only start playing meaningful games in July even though the season commences in January. Also think it could lead to a better structured season for clubs. Should also mean nearly every county match is important. The traditionalists would probably hate this idea!

[Tyrone Dreamer]

I see people saying the current system ensures there are five trophies handed out every year and they dont want this to stop as everyone has something to play for. Maybe we could have 4 competitions - North,south,east,west. 8 in each, split into 2 4's. Top 2 in groups go through to regional semi finals and there would be a regional tropy for eventual winners, they would then go through to all ireland semi's. This would ensure everyone gets 3 championship games and keep local derbies etc.

[Rossfan]

I like the idea of 32 counties playing in a straight knockout. Given the historical provinces of Ireland, we could probably play one knockout tournament in each province, with the four winners making the semi-finals.

This would make the provincial championship something worth winning, would ensure local rivalries continue, and would allow club football to take the driving seat in most counties by the middle of June.

Madness, eh?

Absolutely.
Why not bring back sideline throws and 5 points for a goal and grassy banks and paper hats and ........

[Zulu]

Why are some people saying that if you get rid of the provincial championships you'll lose all the local rivalries? There is only 32 counties which means that any championship format would be bound to throw up a few inter provincial match ups and weren't half the country trying to tell us that the Cork/Kerry AI final wasn't all that interesting to them because it was 'local' and had occured so often in recent times.

And that's half the problem with the GAA, too many lads spout ill thought out BS and romanticise games or championships beyond all reality. The present system is a complete joke at this stage, Christ were not living in Australia, it would take you no more than 3 hours to drive between any 2 points in the country so there is no logical reason to create a competition based on geography.

I still believe that joining the league and the championship is the best way forward but I'm open to any suggestions as long as they don't involve retaining the provincial championships (unless they're played as a stand alone competition) because that is a flawed competition from the start.

[Sionnach]

it would take you no more than 3 hours to drive between any 2 points in the country so there is no logical reason to create a competition based on geography.

I still believe that joining the league and the championship is the best way forward but I'm open to any suggestions as long as they don't involve retaining the provincial championships (unless they're played as a stand alone competition) because that is a flawed competition from the start.

No more than 3 hours??? What are you talking about?

[Sionnach]

There would be a lot of advantages to this.

Start with provincial tournaments, with each side getting enough games to warm up.

Then league phase: 2 divisions each divided into 2 groups. Top and bottom teams play off to decide titles / promotion/ relegation.

Finally knock-out: the first-division sides, i.e. teams that finished in the league-phase top 16, play straight knock-out for the All-Ireland.

The draw for the first round is seeded according to finishing position in the league phase. Open draw from then on, although in the quarter-finals the league champions (or, if they lost the first round, the team that beat them) could be given home advantage with the choice of any large enough venue).   

The second tier involves the ones who didn't make the league top 16, in a similar format to the first tier. Promoted sides are into the first division of next year's league. So for instance a team newly promoted to the top 16 in the league phase could theoretically be relegated to the second tier, win it in the knock-out, and be back in the top 16 for next year's league phase.



It's a fairly simple format, and gives every team a fair chance with no geographical inequalities. With only 4 knockout rounds and no back door, it would take less time to play off and alleviate the fixture problem, yet more of the games would be meaningful.

[Zulu]

it would take you no more than 3 hours to drive between any 2 points in the country so there is no logical reason to create a competition based on geography.

I still believe that joining the league and the championship is the best way forward but I'm open to any suggestions as long as they don't involve retaining the provincial championships (unless they're played as a stand alone competition) because that is a flawed competition from the start.

No more than 3 hours??? What are you talking about?

Jesus man it was a generalisation, the point being that the vast majority of games would involve counties that aren't that far away.

There would be a lot of advantages to this.

Start with provincial tournaments, with each side getting enough games to warm up.

How and why would you do that?

Then league phase: 2 divisions each divided into 2 groups. Top and bottom teams play off to decide titles / promotion/ relegation.

Why play a league and then give the second placed teams after all the games have been played the opportunity to actually win it, likewise for the bottom two? This is again a nonsense GAA solution to a non-existant problem. You play a league and the top team at the end of all the games wins it and the bottom one or two get relegated, nice and simple.

Finally knock-out: the first-division sides, i.e. teams that finished in the league-phase top 16, play straight knock-out for the All-Ireland.

While I would agree with the idea of only the top teams playing for the championship, that hasn't a hope of being passed in any Congress, and though I know this is only a bit of winter internet chit chat, any proposal worth talking about has to have some chance sometime in the future of being passed. Cutting half the teams in Ireland out of a chance to win Sam just wouldn't work, sure some of the hurling lads are trying to get more of the weaker counties back into the AI where their only role will be to provide more rounds.

[brianboru00]

How about the leagues finished by end of April (preliminarys over by 1st week in April)

Provincial Championships run over the course of late April / May and finals last week in May / 1st in June

Then divide the Championship into "A Championship comprised of top 12 teams from National Leagues"
                                                 "B Championship comprised of remaining 20 teams"

A championship - Open draw - 4 ties
B Championship - Prelim + 1st round +2nd round to get to semi final stage.

The "B Championship" is the Tommy Murphy Cup. However - once the semi finals have been reached- the semi finalist are drawn against the Provincial Champions.

e.g     Prov Champs V  "BC 1/2 final"                 A Championship
         Mayo                    Meath                                        Derry           V   Kerry
         Kerry                    Fermanagh                                 Westmeath  V    Monaghan
         Dublin                   Sligo                                          Armagh        V Kildare                                                                                   
         Cork                     Wicklow                                     Galway         V  Donegal


So the last 12 comprises of the Provincial champs / "B semi finalists" and winners of 1st round of "A Championship"

This gives the Provincial Champions an extra game before the quarter finals as well as a second chance if they lose .
It seeds the teams cutting down on one sided affairs - The Tommy Murphy cup would become more competitive, perhaps bring in a rule which states you must name 12 of the 15 players who played in your last TM match.
Every team gtd 2 games including Provincial winners.

Of course the semi final and final of TMC may become damp squibs.
The timing is crucial and club fixtures will remain a problem unless they too are enforced by Croke Park

[Sionnach]

Jesus man it was a generalisation, the point being that the vast majority of games would involve counties that aren't that far away.

OK, I know it was only a generalisation, just that not that long ago I had to do a signficantly longer trip than that on a fairly regular basis for a while!

How and why would you do that?

By that I was just referring to something along the lines of the McKenna, O'Byrne, etc, which would serve as a chance to try out players etc with the old National League gone.

TWhy play a league and then give the second placed teams after all the games have been played the opportunity to actually win it, likewise for the bottom two? This is again a nonsense GAA solution to a non-existant problem. You play a league and the top team at the end of all the games wins it and the bottom one or two get relegated, nice and simple.

I didn't suggest that! By "top teams" I mean the winners of each of the division's 2 groups. Not the top two teams in each group.

While I would agree with the idea of only the top teams playing for the championship, that hasn't a hope of being passed in any Congress, and though I know this is only a bit of winter internet chit chat, any proposal worth talking about has to have some chance sometime in the future of being passed. Cutting half the teams in Ireland out of a chance to win Sam just wouldn't work, sure some of the hurling lads are trying to get more of the weaker counties back into the AI where their only role will be to provide more rounds.

But they do all get a chance to win Sam. They only have to do well enough in the round-robin phase of the championship. and it's that which decides who qualifies for the last 16. I think you're right to say that it would be unlikely to get consensus in the near future, but let's be realistic, are the champions league, and other structures that lads are suggesting likely either? I feel this would be a good structure if not as politically palatable as it could be.

[mylestheslasher]

The provincial councils will never agree to it and neither will the smaller counties.

That sums it up. It's outdated and illogical, but too many have financial gains to be made from it and then there's the romantic model.

In the last 2 years, the All-Ireland champs didn't win one provincial game. It's meaningless.

The provincial championship wasn't meaningless before ye won your first Sam, was it? It is 125 years of tradition we are talking about here and while I am open to changes I would still somehow like to see a team crowned as provincial champs every year.

[Sionnach]

Would have doubts about champions league type structures, when you look at the European soccer and rugby competitions many of the groups could end up being dull and largely predictable. Wouldk incorporating the league as a more meaningful round-robin stage to determine seeding for straight knock-out be better? it would be quite simple, something like this

First play provincial championships. [For instance, one option would be to play them off in a month with no replays etc with the finals under lights over the May bank holiday long weekend.]  Either leave them as stand-alone competitions or else if preferred increase their importance by making the lround-robin Division One consist of the eight finalists with champions home in games against runner-ups.

The league as a round-robin stage. It determines seeding for the knock-out rounds, which should ensure the round-robin stage is much meaningful and interesting than the current national league even if not quite knock-out intensity.

Finally straight knock-out with the 32 counties plus London with no back-doors etc.[ Possibly reward seed number 1 with a bye to the last 16 and choice of venue up to the quarter-finals, leaving the bottom 4 in winnable preliminary round games and avoiding too many first-round mismatches.  Home advantage going to the higher seed with an exception for the weakest counties if facing division 1 / 2 sides. To avoid seeds working too much against weaker teams getting good runs, maybe if you beat a higher seed you could be given their seeding for the rest of the competition. ]

[thejuice]

Can I make a suggestion that if we ever did go to a league format that any tied game should go to extra time sudden death where first to 3 points or a goal wins the game. At least that way the games would still have a 'championship' feel to them, no settling for draws.