Mayo Vs Meath - All-Ireland Quarter Finals

[GaillimhIarthair]

Is it true that a former leader of Atlantis is now using some ancient bardic powers - the forbidden written word as weapon - and is trying to unsettle the mystical land from within and are the people still trying to blame their misery on extrinsic forces outside their control. Atlantis, God help us.

That is correct Turlough, yes. But there's a bit of previous here.

The current Atlantis manager has always been the leader-in-waiting since he lead Atlantis' biggest rival to the All-Ireland. At Atlantis' expense, I might add, but they are a Christian people, and forgave and forget. Anyway, whoever was the manager of Atlantis always  had a shadow over him once the leader-in-waiting was back on the market.

In 2005 the leader-in-waiting had a radio show commenting on football. It was his usual bland stuff with one exception - there was a big blowout between management and a fiery but valuable player, and the leader-in-waiting broke cover for once to say, categorically, that if he were in charge, the hothead would be back on the team.

One year later, the leader-in-waiting said that he'd love to be in charge of Atantis when they won a semi-final. This was not the most supportive gesture ever to the 2006 management, who had at least got to the semi-final in the first place.

So if the current manager of Atlantis doesn't like being sniped at - and I assure you he does not - then maybe he's sorry he fired the first shots himself. Filleann an feall ar an bhfeallaire, as they say.

Did the current Atlantis manager ever get round to camping outside the "fiery but valuable" players house like he promised to do some time back?

ah your mistaken i think Gi ,you see there were 2 fiery and valuable players one who's house was camping outside , he has gone on an proved himself to be a fountain of knowledge on all things football , the other fiery player wasn't that valuable and had to prove himself to the current manager of Atlantis,  he is still laying pipes around the country bringing water to the fountains of ireland.

[GaillimhIarthair]

did the saw doctors ever write a song about atlantis if they haven't they should 

IolarCC would make a packet on the royalties 

[Zapatista]

Did anyone hear the Cain Ward interview on Newstalk? One of the most honest sports interviews I've heard in a long time.

He completely dismissed ideas of romance leading Meath to a semi-final and history getting on top of Mayo which the interviewer kept angling towards. The more honest he was the more the interviewer realised he was asking stupid questions.

[RogerMilla]

ah yeah , but will galway bate atlantis ??

[Zulu]

This is taken from today's Irish Independent and although it's about Tyrone I've posted it here because it refers to Tyrone's system of development. And it is Tyrone which counties like Mayo, and indeed Meath, should be taking their lead from. I seem to remember a few lads on here saying Meath ahdn't embraced modern techniques, the fact they've made the semi-final shouldn't fool anyone, Meath are quite a bit off the pace and should be shown up by Kerry. IMO they should thank their lucky stars they aren't playing Tyrone or Cork.



Since 1991, Mickey Harte has nurtured Tyrone sides from youth to senior and the production line just keeps rolling

SUCCESS leaves clues but you don't have to be Sherlock Holmes to discover the basis for Tyrone's production line of All-Ireland winners.

Patience, vision, determination, hard work and a long-term view which is at variance with the shifting sands of GAA county politics -- these are the elements on which the Tyrone football ethos is based.

They are not sexy, not 'fast-fix' methods to suit the microwave age, but enduring qualities that work over the long term.

And then there's the 'X factor', the longevity of the relationship between manager Mickey Harte and the majority of his team.

Of the players on duty for Tyrone in the recent All-Ireland quarter-final against Kildare, eight have travelled the road through heartbreak, success, further devastating loss, and ultimate glory alongside Harte since 1997.

They are Ciaran Gourley, Brian McGuigan, Pascal McConnell, Kevin Hughes, Stephen O'Neill, Owen Mulligan, Enda McGinley, and Michael McGee.

A further four -- Joe McMahon, Conor Gormley, Philip Jordan and Davy Harte-- signed on in time to claim their place in the county annals during Harte's time as the Tyrone U-21 manager.

And that does not take into account the late, great Cormac McAnallen and Paul McGirr who were taken from their families and team-mates at a cruelly early age.

It's still remarkable for any county to have 12 players of a squad of 30 on duty three weeks ago that have forged their careers in tandem with the humble man from Ballygawley who is the top football coach in Ireland right now.

testament

That alone is a great testament to the Tyrone football culture as personified by Mickey Harte and the team he has built and readjusted since claiming the Red Hands' first All-Ireland senior title in 2003.

Consider, too, that Harte has been at the coalface as a manager for Tyrone since 1991 when he started out with the county minor team, and you appreciate the depth of the foundations laid in the home of the All-Ireland champions.

Counties such as Dublin and Mayo, who expect far more of their senior teams than they have delivered for many years, would do well to ponder the template set out by Harte and Tyrone.

The Northern side have looked the most structured and cohesive team in the country and have dealt capably with every challenge posed by the opposition to date this summer.

Kerry have limped along before hitting the heights against a dismal Dublin side which in turn had promised far more than it was able to deliver when it came to the crunch.

Mayo also flattered to deceive; Cork are looking solid but will soon get a comprehensive NCT of their roadworthiness when they play Tyrone; and Meath are the shock team of the championship.

Football and sport don't always follow the form book, but none of these counties can match Tyrone in having the core of their squad bonded by passion and loyalty to the manager who nurtured them from their teens.

It's a fascinating relationship and Harte took time out from the build-up to the Cork game to reflect on the journey so far.

If there was one key factor, one turning point, Harte identifies it as the opportunity he had to stay working with the boys of '97 and '98 beyond their minor years.

"Well I suppose there's no guarantee that any particular template will work but I suppose the more significant thing was that I got to work with the 97/98 minors for three years at U-21 level.

"That was significant. I was able to continuously work with them.

"After '98, I had them in the U-21s from 1999 through to 2002 and those sides which won All-Irelands in 1998 with the minors, and 2000 and 2001 with the U-21s, came through to win the senior All-Ireland in 2003.

"Whatever about the statistics in relation to the Kildare game, the big statistic for me was that 13 of the 2003 All-Ireland winning panel came through from the '97/98 panels.

"Statistics show that, even if you have a successful minor team, 10 years later only two will be regulars in a county senior team.

"In other words, if you have a squad of 18-year-olds, when they're 28, you will, on average, have only two players in your senior side.

"So that was an amazing number of players to come through the ranks," he said.

The question then had to be posed: Was it down to you, the individual leader, or the inherent talent of the players which brought them through from underage football to the pinnacle of their achievements to date?

"I think it's a bit of everything. I think the most important thing from my perspective is that I would look back at the patience of the county board," said Harte.

"They had the vision to see what they were getting and to let it develop. What they were getting was players who were applying the best practice in learning and preparation and it took time.

"The teams were not necessarily bringing home cups and trophies but were doing things well. They evolved into a group of players who were applying the best practice and eventually the trophies came as well.

"To reach that stage required proper structures and (having) a system in place, creating the kind of player who will sustain the teams for the longer term. And then, they are a special group of players. Apart from football they had to cope with the hand of life they were dealt at a young age.

"Paul McGirr's death; Cormac. Kevin Hughes had a brother and sister killed; others in the group lost relatives.

"John Devine's father died just before the All-Ireland (final) last year, so there was a lot to deal with but these boys came through it all," he said.

Eighteen years as a team manager, almost seven of them in charge of the Tyrone senior side, and Harte retains his own enthusiasm at a high level.

He believes players should continue developing, and he highlights Brian Dooher as a great example.

"Brian Dooher is the epitome of a player improving as he gets older, but it's also up to me to keep improving myself.

"I have to change and I have to be open to change and be continuously thinking of doing things in a different way.

"As long as I do that, the players will realise that it's incumbent on them to develop as well," he said.

Harte admires the qualities of his players and his teams, but he doesn't do sentiment when it comes to the highest good of the cause.

Players don't get brownie points for longevity, and if they're out of form or the tactical situation requires it, out they go.

'The team always comes first' is Harte's Law, as he has proved at various stages, most notably by leaving stalwarts such as Brian McGuigan, Owen Mulligan and Stephen O'Neill out of his starting line-up for the All-Ireland final against Kerry last year.

So how does the relationship work, particularly with the long-serving players?

"It's an ongoing process -- they have grown up while I've grown old.

"We have a good relationship. We can have the banter but there's good respect on both sides and everyone knows when the banter has to stop and it's time to do the work," said Harte.

Ah, yes, the work. Physical fitness, agility and strength conditioning are honed to the highest level possible, utilising team sessions and private work the players are required to do on their own, but Harte doesn't believe in slog for the sake of it.

"It has always been our philosophy starting with the minors, that the ball was king.

"Our sessions will be 90pc ball-work. Occasionally we'll work without it, but rarely, because it's much easier and useful to do everything we can do with the ball," he said.

Tyrone's senior squad chases a successful defence of their All-Ireland title but within the county the schools system, the coaching and development panels are all being tuned to bring through the future generations of Tyrone footballers.

A fabulous and comprehensive centre of excellence, to cost around €8m, is to open in Garvaghy by 2014, but the flame of hero-worship is burning brightly within Tyrone.

"There's already a lot of coaching going on in schools and clubs and it gives an opportunity for coaches to learn ways of doing things well, and to bring on the next generation.

"Young fellas are taking the cues from their own heroes in their clubs, and the present team is building a legacy for new players to come.

cracked

"But you can never take this for granted and say this is the whole deal, that we have it cracked.

"All you can do is say we have been in good places in the last number of years and if we want to stay there, we need new players, new ideas, and new attitudes," said Harte.

Talk of development and future plans pales into insignificance as the All-Ireland semi-final clash with Cork looms on the horizon, which is the next big challenge for Harte and his men.

"To be ready for the next day we know we have to work hard.

"The stark reality facing ourselves and Cork is that one team will be playing in September on the greatest day of the football year, and the other's season will be finished.

"You are always just one game way from being knocked off the pedestal, and we don't want that to happen against Cork," he said.

[INDIANA]

I agree with all of that but kerry haven't won a minor all-ireland since 1994. Laois and Down have excellent underage systems but are a disaster at senior level. Mayo are very successful at underage level as well.

Dublin are performing relatively poorly at underage level but its not just that. There are about 10 problems in dublin that need to be fixed. Underage is definitely one fo them. The reality is tyrone have a very even standard at senior club level and below. PLayers don't gravitate towards big clubs and show a bit of loyalty to their own club. This gives Harte a big pick of adult players meaning he wil pick up players who didn't play underage for tyrone. That never happens in dublin and I don't know about mayo.
Dublin have only got planning permisson for a centre of excellence- tyrone have already built theirs- thats the difference.

[Zulu]

It's never just one thing in any county Indiana, but if you look at both Tyrone and Kilkenny the whole GAA sysytem within those counties are pulling in the same direction. Each county has it's own problems and arteas it needs to correct but if a county is going to be successful it needs to put in place some development structure where the next level builds upon the work of the previous one. I wouldn't encourage any county to simply copy Tyrone or Kilkenny because the GAA system is different in each county but I would encourage every county to have the same outlook as them. It isn't enough to simply work hard and wait for a talented group to come along, you have to work with a purpose and make thingxs happen yourself. Dublin, Mayo and Meath all have the playing population, tradition, finance and interest to be serious football teams but none of them are. The solution for each county is different but it is there, if they first admit they have problems and what worked in the past isn't working anymore.

[INDIANA]

It is Zulu- but you underestimate the problems created at 2nd level in Dublin. There are so many secondary schools in dublin who offer all sports. There are also a large number of kids who go to grind schools and private schools some of whom don't play GAA at all. Thats not the case in kilkenny and tyrone. Thats where the biggest problem is in dublin- some of the schools have no interest in promoting GAA. Dublin's record at school level is appalling because of it.

[ross4life]

i'm not sure about mayo been very successful at underage level! correct me if i'm wrong but one under 21 all ireland in 2006 is all i can remember mayo wining last 20 years, even we manage to win one All ireland in that time

[Zulu]

I agree R4L, Mayo aren't particularily successful at underage.

[INDIANA]

i'm not sure about mayo been very successful at underage level! correct me if i'm wrong but one under 21 all ireland in 2006 is all i can remember mayo wining last 20 years, even we manage to win one All ireland in that time

But they are getting to all-ireland minor and u21 finals- so they must be doing something right. But underage is no guarantee. There are some people in Dublin who feel giving a kid a dublin jersey at 14 is ridiculous-because they think they've made it because they are on a development team. i laughed at these people a few years back- I'm not laughing anymore.

[Barney]

Ross, Mayo haven't put away the underage titles but have played in 3 Minor Finals, and 3 u21 Finals this Decade. They have also lost two semi-finals at u21 in the last two years, and one minor semi-final.

Basically we are there or thereabouts at the underage grades (and u21 is a much better indicator of senior success if you ask me) and are picking up players from these teams.

Where we are losing out is that many of the players are at a very similar and interchangeable level and we are not developing the top class forwards needed to win an All Ireland.

However this year John O'Mahony has found solutions at full-back (Cafferkey), centre-half back (Cunniffe) and full-forward (O'Shea). We have a very young team, with probably a similar average age to Roscommon, and if the rate of development continues and we add in a few more we can improve further but success at All ireland level was always 2/3 years away.

[ross4life]

& sure kerry didn't win Minor for ages but they success started at under 21 level with all irelands in 1990, 1995, 1996, 1998, & 2008

[INDIANA]

Ross, Mayo haven't put away the underage titles but have played in 3 Minor Finals, and 3 u21 Finals this Decade. They have also lost two semi-finals at u21 in the last two years, and one minor semi-final.

Basically we are there or thereabouts at the underage grades (and u21 is a much better indicator of senior success if you ask me) and are picking up players from these teams.

Where we are losing out is that many of the players are at a very similar and interchangeable level and we are not developing the top class forwards needed to win an All Ireland.

However this year John O'Mahony has found solutions at full-back (Cafferkey), centre-half back (Cunniffe) and full-forward (O'Shea). We have a very young team, with probably a similar average age to Roscommon, and if the rate of development continues and we add in a few more we can improve further but success at All ireland level was always 2/3 years away.

Not so sure Barney- I'm starting to think minor is nearly a better indicator. Very hard to correct skills deficits at 21 years of age. Dublin won the leinster u21 title this year and lost to cork (the all-ireland champs) by a point. Yet I saw about 10 guys playing who still didn't have the basic skills for dublin- and they never will at this stage. If they are good at minor- stay injury free and have a good attitude they'll be good seniors. I know someone who's actually doing a study on transition from u21 to senior. I'll put the results up when he's done but so far the results are nowhere near what I expected. I thought you'd get maybe 6-7 seniors off an u21 team (good u21 team)- seems the strike rate is no better than minor so far.

[ross4life]

Ross, Mayo haven't put away the underage titles but have played in 3 Minor Finals, and 3 u21 Finals this Decade. They have also lost two semi-finals at u21 in the last two years, and one minor semi-final.

Basically we are there or thereabouts at the underage grades (and u21 is a much better indicator of senior success if you ask me) and are picking up players from these teams.

Where we are losing out is that many of the players are at a very similar and interchangeable level and we are not developing the top class forwards needed to win an All Ireland.

However this year John O'Mahony has found solutions at full-back (Cafferkey), centre-half back (Cunniffe) and full-forward (O'Shea). We have a very young team, with probably a similar average age to Roscommon, and if the rate of development continues and we add in a few more we can improve further but success at All ireland level was always 2/3 years away.

getting to finals is all good but it's about winning titles (i thought you knew this from senior) losing finals at underage is so heartbreaking that for some they find it hard to recover, as for forwards to win all irelands well it doesn't help when John O' Mahoney keeps his best forward Conor Moonwalker on the bench & he decides to play Moran in defence