Thoughts on Fitness and Coaching for Gaelic Games

[Logan]

I didn't ignore your reference to Kildare because although I know how they train I don't know how Dublin train but anyway as you alluded to Dublin didn't beat Kildare because of fitness.

I didn't say they did or didn't beat them because of fitness - but Kildares' fitness wasn't overly evident or the main factor in them winning.
But the point is that unless a team is very clearly 'fitter' it's impossible to say with any certainty that one team is fitter than another.

But you can tell us about Kildares training

How do you know the IRFU use or don't use traditional linear periodised training models? Unless you are of course an IRFU coach?

I am for my sins.

Look I don't mind you or anyone having a different opinion, I'm actually interested in why you are thinking differently, I have been drafting up a season plan with a lot emphasis of periodisation and a different train of thought has caught my curiosity, perhaps my language has been agressive only because I want you to qualify what your saying.

Fair enough, that's honest. Truce.

Even on hydration we have been told players should have a minimum 3 litres of water before a game, yet you seem to have contradictory evidence to this.

I'll send you some stuff - but if you've been told by the IRFU to have your players drink a minimum of 3L of water before a game - I would love to see their proof of that.
There is NO way that makes sense.

[Logan]

Because you're not reading all the studies on hydration Dinny. Quite a number suggest in a temperate climate like ours- 3 litres is far too much and its something I agree with. I can't see how a junior club footballer will need 3 litres of water before a junior B championship match. Anything around 1.5 litres in our climate with a sports drink beforehand is plenty IMO.

Plenty

Rugby is a different game especially at the levels Liam Hennessy is talking about - ie the higher echelons of professional sport.

The body doesn't hydrate anyway just by taking in litres and litres of water.
I would bet your left testicle not one IRFU player drinks 3 litres of water from breakfast to 3pm kick off.
That's a ship load of water to drink - even for a big man.

[Logan]

It's what we've been advised, my players ofter lose between 3-5kg in a game particularly when the temperatures are high. The reason so much water intake is recommended is to off set muscle fatigue, any percentage drop in body water levels can decrease muscle performance. I haven't performed any studies but this what the IRFU guru's are recommending so I'm quite open to other schools of thought.

I don't want to look as though I'm bashing the IRFU's guru's - but from what I know this is correct in marathon runners. Not in team sports in Ireland.

The only way a rugby player would lose 5kg in a match is if they had a child.

[Dinny Breen]

From an IRFU guide on nutrition

Hyperhydration

This is the strategy for loading more water into the body so as to be insured against dehydration especially during a game. It is important to become accustomed to this strategy during training.

Remember, do not try any unusual strategy for the first time on match day. All strategies should be well rehearsed and practised long before the playing season begins.

Thirst is not always a good guide of your fluid requirements, so it is advisable to drink more than normal. A good yardstick for daily fluid requirements is 35-45 ml per kilogram of body weight. For an average 70 kg young player this means drinking between 2.5 and 3.2 litres of water each day. The simplest and most practical drink is water. However, water does not provide the most rapid form of water replacement in the body. A dilute carbohydrate and electrolyte drink will deliver water faster to the body, eg specially formulated sports drinks. However, sports drinks should only be consumed during and immediately following training or a game. They should not be consumed regularly throughout the day. Excessive consumption of sports drinks can have adverse long term effects on teeth and can also contribute to excess fat storage. Don't make the mistake of thinking that because the ambient temperature and humidity are relatively low during winter that the need to consume water before, during or after training is reduced! back to top

[Dinny Breen]

It's what we've been advised, my players ofter lose between 3-5kg in a game particularly when the temperatures are high. The reason so much water intake is recommended is to off set muscle fatigue, any percentage drop in body water levels can decrease muscle performance. I haven't performed any studies but this what the IRFU guru's are recommending so I'm quite open to other schools of thought.

I don't want to look as though I'm bashing the IRFU's guru's - but from what I know this is correct in marathon runners. Not in team sports in Ireland.

The only way a rugby player would lose 5kg in a match is if they had a child.

Sorry Logan but we weigh our players before and after each game, I've seen this with my own eyes, the average is just under 3 kilos.

[Logan]

Ok, yes, possibly 2.5 kilos ... that's still ~5 lbs of weight

But 5kgs? ~10lbs I doubt that.

[Tony Baloney]

From an IRFU guide on nutrition

Hyperhydration

This is the strategy for loading more water into the body so as to be insured against dehydration especially during a game. It is important to become accustomed to this strategy during training.

Remember, do not try any unusual strategy for the first time on match day. All strategies should be well rehearsed and practised long before the playing season begins.

Thirst is not always a good guide of your fluid requirements, so it is advisable to drink more than normal. A good yardstick for daily fluid requirements is 35-45 ml per kilogram of body weight. For an average 70 kg young player this means drinking between 2.5 and 3.2 litres of water each day. The simplest and most practical drink is water. However, water does not provide the most rapid form of water replacement in the body. A dilute carbohydrate and electrolyte drink will deliver water faster to the body, eg specially formulated sports drinks. However, sports drinks should only be consumed during and immediately following training or a game. They should not be consumed regularly throughout the day. Excessive consumption of sports drinks can have adverse long term effects on teeth and can also contribute to excess fat storage. Don't make the mistake of thinking that because the ambient temperature and humidity are relatively low during winter that the need to consume water before, during or after training is reduced! back to top

It says 2.5 to 3.2 litres of water per day. That's different from 3 litres prior to a match.

[Dinny Breen]

Doubt all you want I have the statistics recorded, you probably need to look at it from a rugby perspective I have players who weigh anything from 80Kg up to 120Kg, I'd say your average rugby player probably weighs in excess of 20Kg than your average footballer.

[Dinny Breen]

Do you not think you'd drink more on a match day 

[Jinxy]

Hyperhydration should not be used for field sports in a temperate climate.
It's no more beneficial than maintaining fluid levels (euhydration) during a game.
Remember there is nothing to stop players taking on water during the umpteen breaks in play there is during a game.
The use of glycerol to facilitate hyperhydration is an area that there has been a good bit of research on but in our climate I think the concept of hyperhydration has little or no merit.

[Tony Baloney]

Do you not think you'd drink more on a match day 

Aye when you're thirsty after a match.

[Logan]

Drink as normal the day of a match
If you want water drink some but don't force it down

[full back]

Logan - I am coming to the end of my playing career and hope to do a bit of coaching. You have raised some interesting points there. If you have any supporting documentation I'd love to get my hands on it and have a read. Could you pm me and I will give you my email. Cheers.

Would be interested in this as well if posible

[dundrumite]

Because you're not reading all the studies on hydration Dinny. Quite a number suggest in a temperate climate like ours- 3 litres is far too much and its something I agree with. I can't see how a junior club footballer will need 3 litres of water before a junior B championship match. Anything around 1.5 litres in our climate with a sports drink beforehand is plenty IMO.

Rugby is a different game especially at the levels Liam Hennessy is talking about - ie the higher echelons of professional sport.

Just on the hydration debate, it is reccomended by the institute of medicine website that 3.7 litres of water should be consumed daily with 80% of this through beverages including water (as the majority one can assume). So is the 1.5/ 3 litres that is being debated in addition to this?

[Logan]

Because you're not reading all the studies on hydration Dinny. Quite a number suggest in a temperate climate like ours- 3 litres is far too much and its something I agree with. I can't see how a junior club footballer will need 3 litres of water before a junior B championship match. Anything around 1.5 litres in our climate with a sports drink beforehand is plenty IMO.

Rugby is a different game especially at the levels Liam Hennessy is talking about - ie the higher echelons of professional sport.

Just on the hydration debate, it is reccomended by the institute of medicine website that 3.7 litres of water should be consumed daily with 80% of this through beverages including water (as the majority one can assume). So is the 1.5/ 3 litres that is being debated in addition to this?

3.7L of fluids over a whole day sounds much more reasonable.