Send for the Aussies

[JMohan]

I'd disagree with that JM and in fact both Tyrone and Kerry have been well ahead of other counties in the skill department over the past number of years. Likewise both Dublin and Monaghan have failed due to skill levels rather than fitness levels. The problem isn't that coaches don't want to work on skills but that they simply don't have enough time or resources to do so, even at county level. In saying that I do think county teams could be doing more to improve technique as could underage coaches, which is where they have the time to do so.

Not sure what exactly you disagree with - but I agree with you on Dublin and Monaghan - but I don't rate their coaches anyway - spend more time in the media than worrying about skills - agree completely. And in fact Monaghan are most usually (overtrained - Fermanagh last year/Derry this year.)

Bad coaches are bad coaches

[AZOffaly]

I suppose my 'vision' as I start off on this chapter of my GAA life is to try and foster the skills of the game in the young lads and ladies I will be involved with initially, and any other teams I am asked to help out with, at an older level, I will try my best to hone the techniques, or at least not ignore them completely in the name of tactics and other forms of preparation (all important as well).

My approach to football, even as a player, was always that the fecking ball is very hard to get hold of, a forward might touch it 10 times in a game sometimes, so you have to try and use it as well as you possibly can when you have it.

I should add that I am definitely not 'anti' tactics or being properly prepared physically as well. That's not what I meant at all. But the aim of all tactics and preparation is to help put your team in a position to win the game. Executing the skills better than the other team is a significant arrow to have in your quiver if you can as well, and is more likely to help those tactics and preparation bear fruit.

[JMohan]

I suppose my 'vision' as I start off on this chapter of my GAA life is to try and foster the skills of the game in the young lads and ladies I will be involved with initially, and any other teams I am asked to help out with, at an older level, I will try my best to hone the techniques, or at least not ignore them completely in the name of tactics and other forms of preparation (all important as well).

My approach to football, even as a player, was always that the fecking ball is very hard to get hold of, a forward might touch it 10 times in a game sometimes, so you have to try and use it as well as you possibly can when you have it.

I agree - but to get it you need to be fit first of all ... etc etc

It's chicken and egg - but as Zulu correctly pointed out and as I did on a previous thread there are ways to improve and progress ... which Monaghan and Dublin never seem to learn.

They promote themselves as being super trained - and they are - stupidly! They can run and lift weights but they can't win the big games.

Every team goes through stages of progression in winning an All Ireland ...
1. First you learn how to play together as a team and beat poor teams - this starts with basic skills you already have and a basic good organisational level and decent fitness & discipline - e.g. Antrim
2. Then you learn how to stop good teams playing by hassling them and owning the ball (think back to Armagh and Tyrone before they won anything) and disrupt their style. This is easily achieved with very high levels of running fitness and just hard training - see Monaghan now (and maybe Derry - tho I think Cassidy has gone backwards with them - shock comment!)
3. And then you learn how to combine 1 & 2 and beat good teams without the ball - once you add good skill work - especially in later stages of the game, good psychology, shrewd management and take them to the next level - Tyrone and Kerry

Monaghan for example have stopped at stage 2 and never progressed beyond spoiling to a more constructive team. As I said - this is Bantys biggest failing in my opinion. 

For what it's worth Derry are back at at 1 I fear, Tyrone at 3 ... (Derry were closing in on 3 after the League last year untii they took their eye off Fermanagh).


But you see what I mean - think it's the same at all levels.

[Zulu]

you'll soon see that you can have a bigger influence on winning faster by focusing on the other areas  

I disagree with that bit, I don't notice too many teams wilting in the second half these days, though some teams are certainly prepared better than others, but the point I'd make is that the biggest improvements can now be made in the skills department rather than the fitness one.

The one thing that surprises me about the IC training that I've seen recently is that all the players are still doing the same session, i.e. there is no specialised training for forwards or defenders and as a result the players aren't practicing game situations enough. Maybe the likes of Tyrone are different but it amazes me that IC backrooms can watch their team kick 10 or 11 points yet their forwards continue to spend less than probably 5% of a training session kicking points.

[JMohan]

you'll soon see that you can have a bigger influence on winning faster by focusing on the other areas  

I disagree with that bit, I don't notice too many teams wilting in the second half these days, though some teams are certainly prepared better than others, but the point I'd make is that the biggest improvements can now be made in the skills department rather than the fitness one.

The one thing that surprises me about the IC training that I've seen recently is that all the players are still doing the same session, i.e. there is no specialised training for forwards or defenders and as a result the players aren't practicing game situations enough. Maybe the likes of Tyrone are different but it amazes me that IC backrooms can watch their team kick 10 or 11 points yet their forwards continue to spend less than probably 5% of a training session kicking points.

In that comment I meant for AZ at junior levels.

And as for fitness - you can always push the bar higher.... but that's a mute point.

As for skill improvement that's a fine comment - but skill development is made mostly at younger ages - not with adults. There is some change - but the time to do it is in youths and children.   

[AZOffaly]

I think we are all in violent agreement here lads. Several strands in the ideal team.

• Good Skill base given as a young player, added to and enhanced by relevant drills and coaching all the way up
• Good Physical preparation. Be as fit as you can to use those skills
• Good Dietry preparation. Look after yourself off the field to help you prepare physically and perform on it
• Good Mental preparation to make sure you are positive and clear headed no matter the situation
• Good Tactical planning, with alternative plans, to try and play to your strengths and to limit the oppositions

I think the latter 4 have come on hugely in the last 20 years, but the first one seems to have suffered a bit, or at least stayed stagnant.

[JMohan]

I will agree to a point.

(I also think that much of the last 4 you listed are trained in a completely retarded and somewhat dangerous manner)

[AZOffaly]

I will agree to a point.

(I also think that much of the last 4 you listed are trained in a completely retarded and somewhat dangerous manner)

Possibly so, but compared to what was the case when I was starting out, it's a different world. I take your point though. A good friend of mine is a Professor in Sports Science at the University of Swansea, and specialises in the field of Sports Strength and Conditioning and  Nutrition. He's very scathing of some of the stuff going on, and not only in the GAA. He deals as a consultant to the WRU, the Ospreys and several soccer clubs in the UK as well. He says that some of the stuff that goes on is very half cocked, and as you say, somewhat dangerous.

[JMohan]

I will agree to a point.

(I also think that much of the last 4 you listed are trained in a completely retarded and somewhat dangerous manner)

Possibly so, but compared to what was the case when I was starting out, it's a different world. I take your point though. A good friend of mine is a Professor in Sports Science at the University of Swansea, and specialises in the field of Sports Strength and Conditioning and  Nutrition. He's very scathing of some of the stuff going on, and not only in the GAA. He deals as a consultant to the WRU, the Ospreys and several soccer clubs in the UK as well. He says that some of the stuff that goes on is very half cocked, and as you say, somewhat dangerous.

I know that even some of the training done by teams advised by Irish 'professors' is bananas - so he's correct on that point.

[AZOffaly]

I will agree to a point.

(I also think that much of the last 4 you listed are trained in a completely retarded and somewhat dangerous manner)

Possibly so, but compared to what was the case when I was starting out, it's a different world. I take your point though. A good friend of mine is a Professor in Sports Science at the University of Swansea, and specialises in the field of Sports Strength and Conditioning and  Nutrition. He's very scathing of some of the stuff going on, and not only in the GAA. He deals as a consultant to the WRU, the Ospreys and several soccer clubs in the UK as well. He says that some of the stuff that goes on is very half cocked, and as you say, somewhat dangerous.

I know that even some of the training done by teams advised by Irish 'professors' is bananas - so he's correct on that point.

Is that supposed to be a dig at him? Unfair if so. I only mentioned his qualification as an indication of where I was getting my info. on that subject, as I am certainly not an expert in that field myself. He can't kick points though

[Zulu]

In that comment I meant for AZ at junior levels.

Fair enough.

And as for fitness - you can always push the bar higher.... but that's a mute point.

Well there is a genetic ceiling and football is a multi disciplinary sport so being faster or fitter won't necessarily mean you are a better footballer. But the point is the best teams are the best because of superior skill levels rather than superior fitness levels, though I agree with you if you're talking about IC players, we have a good deal of room for fitness improvements.

As for skill improvement that's a fine comment - but skill development is made mostly at younger ages - not with adults. There is some change - but the time to do it is in youths and children.

Undoubtedly it is the best time but it is far from the only time and you can and should improve skill technique all through adult level. I would argue that kicking in Gaelic football is one of the most difficult ball sport skills and needs constant work but we don't do anywhere near enough of it. And in fact most coaches don't know how to correct poor kicking technique which is a direct result of our own lack of research into our games.

[JMohan]

I will agree to a point.

(I also think that much of the last 4 you listed are trained in a completely retarded and somewhat dangerous manner)

Possibly so, but compared to what was the case when I was starting out, it's a different world. I take your point though. A good friend of mine is a Professor in Sports Science at the University of Swansea, and specialises in the field of Sports Strength and Conditioning and  Nutrition. He's very scathing of some of the stuff going on, and not only in the GAA. He deals as a consultant to the WRU, the Ospreys and several soccer clubs in the UK as well. He says that some of the stuff that goes on is very half cocked, and as you say, somewhat dangerous.

I know that even some of the training done by teams advised by Irish 'professors' is bananas - so he's correct on that point.

Is that supposed to be a dig at him? Unfair if so. I only mentioned his qualification as an indication of where I was getting my info. on that subject, as I am certainly not an expert in that field myself. He can't kick points though

No!
Not a dig - I meant his equivalent here in Ireland has been doing bananas training with IC teams ... so your friend is correct

[JMohan]

In that comment I meant for AZ at junior levels.

Fair enough.

And as for fitness - you can always push the bar higher.... but that's a mute point.

Well there is a genetic ceiling and football is a multi disciplinary sport so being faster or fitter won't necessarily mean you are a better footballer.

I've read that line a few time and still can't make head nor tail of it...

But the point is the best teams are the best because of superior skill levels rather than superior fitness levels, though I agree with you if you're talking about IC players, we have a good deal of room for fitness improvements.

Well I don't agree it's one or the other ... but I don't think that's the main point.

As for skill improvement that's a fine comment - but skill development is made mostly at younger ages - not with adults. There is some change - but the time to do it is in youths and children.

Undoubtedly it is the best time but it is far from the only time and you can and should improve skill technique all through adult level. I would argue that kicking in Gaelic football is one of the most difficult ball sport skills and needs constant work but we don't do anywhere near enough of it. And in fact most coaches don't know how to correct poor kicking technique which is a direct result of our own lack of research into our games.

Well perhaps - my basic point is that the standard of coaching is poor.
The biggest names in cpaching tend to be coaches who get players fitter and that's the easiest thing to do (Monaghan). It's harder to train and improve a team skill wise and as a functional unit - (Tyrone)

[Jinxy]

Mickey Harte hit the nail on the head on Newstalk earlier.
We were brought up in a time where only the biggest games between the better teams were televised.
How many of us can recall televised games from the 70's and early 80's that didn't involve either Kerry or Dublin?
How many of us can recall televised games from the 80's that didn't involve either Meath or Cork.
Now we get to see all the good teams, all the middling teams and all the shit teams.
So when people talk of a skills deficit, do they mean
a) skills are worse they once were (i.e. a Longford, Offaly or Sligo footballer now is less skilful than his counterpart 20 years ago).
b) the skills of the modern mid-lower level teams are bad
or
c) the skills of the top 5 teams are bad.

[tyssam5]

Sean Boylan said on RTE radio last Sunday that he was concerned about the modern-day emphasis on bulking up Gaelic footballers. He inferred that it was being done at the expense of other training, notably ball work.

Sean implied, Martin inferred. Man who is paid to write in the English language should know that. Basic skills and training Martin, sadly lacking in the journalistic world.