Presbyterian sectarian appeal to Gordon Brown

T Fearon · June 17, 2009, 10:33:43 AM

Robinson and Mc Guinness are due to meet Gordon Brown to-day to appeal for help in resolving the Presbyterian Mutual Society's financial crisis. Only Presbyetrians were allowed to be members of this scheme which has hit the rocks due to mismanagement.

However the Presbyterian Moderator has expressed the hpe that Gordon Brown will "use his good Presbyetrian heart" and come to their aid (Brown himself is Prsebyterian). Is such a blatantly sectarian appeal not sectarian and indeed immoral?

Imagine also if you will the outrage of the various unionist factions up here if a catholic organisation was in financial difficulty and an appeal went out to Brian Cowen on the basis of his "catholic heart"?

Chrisowc · June 17, 2009, 10:39:19 AM

Quote from: T Fearon on June 17, 2009, 10:33:43 AM
Robinson and Mc Guinness are due to meet Gordon Brown to-day to appeal for help in resolving the Presbyterian Mutual Society's financial crisis. Only Presbyetrians were allowed to be members of this scheme which has hit the rocks due to mismanagement.

However the Presbyterian Moderator has expressed the hpe that Gordon Brown will "use his good Presbyetrian heart" and come to their aid (Brown himself is Prsebyterian). Is such a blatantly sectarian appeal not sectarian and indeed immoral?

Imagine also if you will the outrage of the various unionist factions up here if a catholic organisation was in financial difficulty and an appeal went out to Brian Cowen on the basis of his "catholic heart"?

I'd call you an imbecile but I'm not sure how to spell it.

Evil Genius · June 17, 2009, 11:30:03 AM

Quote from: T Fearon on June 17, 2009, 10:33:43 AM
Robinson and Mc Guinness are due to meet Gordon Brown to-day to appeal for help in resolving the Presbyterian Mutual Society's financial crisis. Only Presbyetrians were allowed to be members of this scheme which has hit the rocks due to mismanagement.

However the Presbyterian Moderator has expressed the hpe that Gordon Brown will "use his good Presbyetrian heart" and come to their aid (Brown himself is Prsebyterian). Is such a blatantly sectarian appeal not sectarian and indeed immoral?

Imagine also if you will the outrage of the various unionist factions up here if a catholic organisation was in financial difficulty and an appeal went out to Brian Cowen on the basis of his "catholic heart"?

How about this for a deal, then, Tony?

Why don't Ulster Presbyterians sort out their own financial mess, without appealing to their Government (UK) to bail them out?

Then Irish Catholics can sort out the financial mess of the Child Abuse scandal, without appealing to their Government to bail them out?

Or better still, why don't all Christians adhere to the Biblical injunction in Matthew 7:3, and leave the rest of us Heathens to get on with our own life of sin and licentiousness?

mylestheslasher · June 17, 2009, 11:51:45 AM

As a repubilcan I would like to see fellow republican help the presbyterians in any way they can. It would be a small step but a positive one in my opinion.

I don't recall Tony posting an opinion on the Clerical Abuse thread, which is amazing as he always has something to say about any of the protestant religions.

Evil Genius · June 17, 2009, 12:31:54 PM

Quote from: mylestheslasher on June 17, 2009, 11:51:45 AMAs a repubilcan I would like to see fellow republican help the presbyterians in any way they can. It would be a small step but a positive one in my opinion.

And considering the prominent part played by Presbyterians in the origins of Republicanism in Ireland, your suggestion would have a pleasing symmetry. It might also serve to revive a past spirit of religious, political and cultural tolerance in the north of Ireland which is often sadly overlooked in the usual litany of "Themmuns and Ussuns" etc which passes for debate and interaction in the present day:

"1783 - This was also the year of the opening of the first catholic church in Belfast in Chapel Lane (then Crooked Lane). The Protestant community of Belfast contributed large sums of money and moral support to the small catholic congregation."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/northernireland/yourplaceandmine/belfast/rosemary_street.shtml

Quote from: mylestheslasher on June 17, 2009, 11:51:45 AMI don't recall Tony posting an opinion on the Clerical Abuse thread, which is amazing as he always has something to say about any of the protestant religions.

No doubt that is because he see his Christian calling as being better served by endlessly denouncing the fundamentally non- or even anti-Christian nature of "cults" like Presbyterianism, than by getting hung up on mere unimportant inconveniences like the rape, buggery, assault and abuse of thousands of Catholic children by the Catholic Priests into whose care they were given.

Which in the "Fearonworld" which he happily inhabits, is fair enough, I suppose...

amigo · June 17, 2009, 12:44:05 PM

Quote from: mylestheslasher on June 17, 2009, 11:51:45 AM
As a repubilcan I would like to see fellow republican help the presbyterians in any way they can. It would be a small step but a positive one in my opinion.

I don't recall Tony posting an opinion on the Clerical Abuse thread, which is amazing as he always has something to say about any of the protestant religions.

Tony is a bigot!! It is that simple, and nothing else really needs said!!

T Fearon · June 17, 2009, 12:54:22 PM

No analogy here whatsover. The fact is that the state handed the children over to the church for care in the first place and had ultimate responsibility for the manner in which that care was administered. The state must bear ultimate responsibility, and the church is also paying its fair share for the relatively few abusers within its ranks. In any event, neither the UK or 26 Government could adequately reward the Catholic Church for its work done in many spheres, education, health, social services etc , North and South of the Border.

My specific concern here relates to the fact that membership of this financial scheme was open only to Presbyterians and in particular the overt attempt by the Presbyterian Moderator to achieve preferential treatment by appealing to the Prime Minister of Great Britain on the basis of his own membership of the Presbyterian Church, which is outrageous and implies that these people are due treatment on an unfair level by virtue of the fact that they simply share the same faith and church allegiance as the Prime Minister

theskull1 · June 17, 2009, 01:05:48 PM

so you shit stir to encourage this meaningful debate....

T Fearon · June 17, 2009, 01:16:58 PM

I am raising a legitimate concern which presumably is shared by countless numbers of taxpayers ie people appealing to a Prime Minister for preferential treatment on the basis simply that they share the Prime Minister's church allegiance

theskull1 · June 17, 2009, 01:24:11 PM

Well then use your words properly to ensure that you don't stir the pot and remove the chance of those concerns being heard?......as if you don't know that anyways....your many things Tony but not a complete fool

mylestheslasher · June 17, 2009, 01:26:13 PM

Quote from: T Fearon on June 17, 2009, 01:16:58 PM
I am raising a legitimate concern which presumably is shared by countless numbers of taxpayers ie people appealing to a Prime Minister for preferential treatment on the basis simply that they share the Prime Minister's church allegiance

What about the taxpayers in the south that have to pay 90% for child abuse by your beloved catholic church (which has only contributed 5% of the 10% promised) that covered up what their priests did. Your response was only directed at the industrial schools but what about Ferns and Dublin (which promises to be bigger than both put together). Your argument is bullshit Tony. If I were interested in religion I'd convert to presbyterianism as at least they don't go around raping children and covering up for it.

EG is totally correct in that presbyterians in the North were the main force behind the 1798 rebellion in the northern areas. They were also prominent in the IRB and even the GAA is its early days. Its a damn shame that bigotry, the type you spout, was allowed to drive us all apart as irish men and women.

Billys Boots · June 17, 2009, 01:34:49 PM

Quote from: T Fearon on June 17, 2009, 01:16:58 PM
I am raising a legitimate concern which presumably is shared by countless numbers of taxpayers ie people appealing to a Prime Minister for preferential treatment on the basis simply that they share the Prime Minister's church allegiance

Do you mean like the catholic church did with Michael Woods and Bertie on the last day of the 2002 Government?

lynchbhoy · June 17, 2009, 01:58:18 PM

Quote from: mylestheslasher on June 17, 2009, 01:26:13 PM
Quote from: T Fearon on June 17, 2009, 01:16:58 PM
I am raising a legitimate concern which presumably is shared by countless numbers of taxpayers ie people appealing to a Prime Minister for preferential treatment on the basis simply that they share the Prime Minister's church allegiance

What about the taxpayers in the south that have to pay 90% for child abuse by your beloved catholic church (which has only contributed 5% of the 10% promised) that covered up what their priests did. Your response was only directed at the industrial schools but what about Ferns and Dublin (which promises to be bigger than both put together). Your argument is bullshit Tony. If I were interested in religion I'd convert to presbyterianism as at least they don't go around raping children and covering up for it.
EG is totally correct in that presbyterians in the North were the main force behind the 1798 rebellion in the northern areas. They were also prominent in the IRB and even the GAA is its early days. Its a damn shame that bigotry, the type you spout, was allowed to drive us all apart as irish men and women.

isnt that what the kincora scandal was covering up ?

the aspect of money in these scandals doesnt address the issue imo
the crux of the matter is that the priests and whoever else it was that was guilty of physical and sexual abuse should be jailed for life.
The church shoul dbe fined (at least that 5% myles is talking about) but after this there isnt much else that can be done.

On a completely seperate note, the presbyterian mutual society are out on a limb chancing their arm because Gordon brown is presb and that he already bailed out the dunfermiline preb mutual credit union society or whatever it was called from his home patch.
However they were bonded and secured, the belfast one is not and in business and life in general , if you dont perform due dilligence and take out appropriate insurance, then you are fecked if the proverbial hits the fan.
Its tough luck, but the members of the society should sue the directors for mismanagement.

NAG1 · June 17, 2009, 02:25:17 PM

This debate was done to death on the thread regarding it Tony.

To bring the catholic church and its failings has no part in this debate.

Simple asnwer is they got themselves in get themselves out and I would be saying the same if it was a catholic organisation as well. It was simple greed by those that ran it and they should be held accountable by those of their own church.

T Fearon · June 17, 2009, 03:18:05 PM

The core point I was making still has not been addressed and that is the immoral (in my opinion) appeal made by a so called Church Leader to the Prime Minister to act simply on the basis that in doing so he would be assisting co religionists, or that he should treat this as a priority on the basis that it was made by a co religionist?

I am merely saying that there would be an outpouring of outrage and all sorts of claims of priest ridden confessional state etc if a similar appeal was made on the same basis to Brian Cowen.