Missing Plane!!

[Tyrones own]

More interesting if not damning news for Airbus to deal with.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/moslive/article-1200132/LIVE-SPECIAL-INVESTIGATION-The-series-mysterious-Airbus-330-accidents-culminating-tragic-loss-Air-France-Flight-447.html

The worst kind of sensationalist crap I've seen in a long time.

The references were 'a musician', a 'retired crash investigator' working for the relatives of the victims (his job is to maximize compensation not to find the cause - no credible investigator would speak like that until the final report is out) and 'an airman' who sounds suspiciously like a typical retired Boeing pilot who has never flown an Airbus.

Please do explain the sensationalist crap remark with respect to the 7 similar incidents
quoted below involving airbus within a single 12 month period.
Ah sure maybe it's all a conspiracy against Airbus, is that the next of it

August 2008 - Air Caraibes Atlantique

Paris to Martinique

Plane flying through turbulence experiences failure of autopilot, ADIRU and computerised instruments. Pilots successfully fight to restore control.


September 2008 - Air Caraibes Atlantique

Paris to Martinique     

Second Air Caraibes flight to Martinique has identical experience. Plane is same model, different aircraft.


October 7, 2008 - Qantas Flight 72

Singapore to Perth

Makes emergency landing after twice plunging uncontrollably in flight following failure of ADIRU, autopilot and instruments. 64 injured, 14 seriously.


December 28, 2008 - Qantas Flight 71

Perth to Singapore

Forced to return to base after failure of autopilot and ADIRU.  Different aircraft, same model as in previous incident.


May 21, 2009 - TAM Flight 8901

Miami to Sao Paulo

Experiences failure of autopilot, ADIRU and instruments. Crew regain control after five minutes. No injuries.
US investigation under way.


June 1, 2009 - Air France Flight 447

Rio to Paris

Crashes during Atlantic storm, killing 228. Automatic radio messages indicate that in minutes before crash, crew lost autopilot, ADIRU and computerised instruments.


June 23, 2009 - Northwest Airlines

Hong Kong to Tokyo

Flight loses autopilot, ADIRU and instruments before landing safely.  US investigation under way.

[Aerlik]

I don't know anything about this stuff but all I know is that it is scary.


Does the pilot basically just do the take off and landing ?? Auto pilot from then on.

On something as "small" as a Pilatus PC12, at 300ft AGL after take-off you hit the autopilot button and away she goes.  All you do is monitor until top of descent.  Mind you, the PC12 is one of the most technologically-advanced civilian aircraft around.  Brilliant to fly.  By monitoring I mean tweak and adjust when necessary.

More interesting if not damning news for Airbus to deal with.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/moslive/article-1200132/LIVE-SPECIAL-INVESTIGATION-The-series-mysterious-Airbus-330-accidents-culminating-tragic-loss-Air-France-Flight-447.html

The worst kind of sensationalist crap I've seen in a long time.

The references were 'a musician', a 'retired crash investigator' working for the relatives of the victims (his job is to maximize compensation not to find the cause - no credible investigator would speak like that until the final report is out) and 'an airman' who sounds suspiciously like a typical retired Boeing pilot who has never flown an Airbus.

[/b]

haha the number of wannabes who think they knwo everything about planes and have precisely that attitude.  Oh they have much to learn.  Like coming to terms with a Cessna 210 one of the most crashed planes in the world.

[muppet]

TO I can point to more Boeing events within a single Irish airline within a short time frame. 7 events is nothing.

'Losing an ADIRU' does not compare to the AF447 crash in any intelligent way. The list of incidents you produced, with the exception of the Qantas one, is mere tabloid clutching at the 720,000 A330 straws that fly every year.

WRT to the QANTAS flight the only similarity is that there was some sort of upset during the flight, there is no evidence (beyond UK tabloidism and US jingoism) to suggest the events were caused by the same thing.

For a start the crashed Air France aircraft only reported ADR failures not ADIRU failures. If you know the difference I will debate on.

[Tyrones own]

TO I can point to more Boeing events within a single Irish airline within a short time frame.

Maybe you could but are they events that to date have/can not be explained?

7 events is nothing.

One unexplained event at 37,000 ft is one too many in my opinion
Again, even to pull the Air France and Quantas flights from that list of incidents...
How can you you say that 7 events is nothing in remembering the fact that while it's most likely
both flight crews suffered similar problems with their systems.... Airbus have no answer to why this
is happening and that is the point I'm trying to make... now if that's not scary and worthy of scrutiny i don't know what is !

[muppet]

TO I can point to more Boeing events within a single Irish airline within a short time frame.

Maybe you could but are they events that to date have/can not be explained?

7 events is nothing.

One unexplained event at 37,000 ft is one too many in my opinion
Again, even to pull the Air France and Quantas flights from that list of incidents...
How can you you say that 7 events is nothing in remembering the fact that while it's most likely
both flight crews suffered similar problems with their systems.... Airbus have no answer to why this
is happening and that is the point I'm trying to make... now if that's not scary and worthy of scrutiny i don't know what is !

The ADIRUs fitted on the A330 are exactly the same as those on the A340, A321, A320, A319 & A318. There are 3 on each aircraft. If no 1 fails autopilot 1 is unavailable. If no 2 fails then autopilot no 2 is unavailable. This happens during flight from time to time without even the cabin crew knowing let alone the passengers.

The issue with the Qantas was that the ADIRU gave faulty info which told the aircraft computers that the aircraft was overspeeding and stalling (too low speed) at the same time. This is not possible (in normal conditions, high 'g' or flying too high for example can create those  conditions but didn't happen here) and a human brain would discard the info but a computer won't. Hence it started flying erratically.

The Air France seems to have had problems with the Air Data sensors. That is a different problem but we still don't know exactly what happened. This of course is enough for a tabloid to suggest a conspiracy.

Certain media outlets are very quick to attack Airbus while never do the same when a Boeing is involved. The irony here of course is that the ADIRUs are US made, Nothrop Grumman to be exact. I suspect Boeing may use the same company for their IRS (ADIRU equivalent) but a journalist with an obvious anti-Airbus bias who starts with the headline "The Airbus 330 - an accident waiting to happen" wouldn't be interested in that.

[Tyrones own]

You didn't get to my initial question about whether any of the events you mentioned
happening with Irish airlines were problems that could not be explained?

It's my understanding that the ADIRU's are fed and use data collected by the ADR
no doubt you'll correct me on that but the fact remains there is a glitch somewhere
in their system that is causing problems in flight that they can't explain.

I personally have nothing against them at all, It's just seems to me that Airbus have rushed into such superior
technological designs with their systems in trying to compete with Boeing
The fly by wire problems they had when first introduced to the design flaws and delays in the A380
to the electrical problems that now surrounds them!

The industry are going to want answers and if it's this type of conspiracy Journalism that keeps the pressure on then I'm OK with it!
"We don't know" isn't going to get it done IMO.

[muppet]

You didn't get to my initial question about whether any of the events you mentioned
happening with Irish airlines were problems that could not be explained?

It's my understanding that the ADIRU's are fed and use data collected by the ADR
no doubt you'll correct me on that but the fact remains there is a glitch somewhere
in their system that is causing problems in flight that they can't explain.

I personally have nothing against them at all, It's just seems to me that Airbus have rushed into such superior
technological designs with their systems in trying to compete with Boeing
The fly by wire problems they had when first introduced to the design flaws and delays in the A380
to the electrical problems that now surrounds them!

The industry are going to want answers and if it's this type of conspiracy Journalism that keeps the pressure on then I'm OK with it!
"We don't know" isn't going to get it done IMO.

Tyrone's Own on this thread I pointed out two Boeing 737 accidents in the 1990s that killed all on board. Both happened in the States, neither investigations found the cause. A design flaw with the rudder actuator was found and fixed but it is still not known what caused those crashes.

It's just seems to me that Airbus have rushed into such superior
technological designs with their systems in trying to compete with Boeing

That is the Seattle spin. These ADIRUs have been in use since 1988. 21 years. US propaganda killed the Concorde but failed to stop Airbus. There is no evidence that an ADIRU problem caused the fatal Air France crash. And by the way, ADIRUs can be turned off which in turn prevents the Airbus computer from relying on them. It is highly likely that the major cause of the Air France crash was a 56,000 foot high thunderstorm, but that is just speculation.

That article that you posted is sensationalist nonsense no matter how you try to twist it.

[muppet]

Here is another article by the same Daily Mail hack and the headline tells you all you need to know about his objectivity:

THE WIDER VIEW: 100 years after Bleriot first flew across the Channel, an identical plane repeats the feat (but not before the French had blocked the first attempt)

The reference to the French is typically misleading and jingoistic.
   

[orangeman]

Big discovery :



Jet wreckage offers hope for Riverdance star's family
Eithne Walls, 28, was a doctor and a talented dancer Continue reading the main story
Related Stories
Irish Air France victim is found
Memorial for plane crash doctors
Walls family statement
Human remains found among wreckage from a crashed passenger jet have offered fresh hope to the family of a County Down doctor and Riverdance star.

Eithne Walls, 28, from Ballygowan, County Down died when an Air France jet from Rio de Janeiro to Paris crashed into the Atlantic on 1 June 2009.

Her body has never been recovered. All 228 people on board were killed.

She had been on holiday with two doctor friends from the Republic of Ireland. She died alongside her two friends.

They were Aisling Butler, from Roscrea, County Tipperary, and Jane Deasy from Dublin.

The three women had graduated in medicine from Trinity College Dublin in 2007 and were returning from holiday.

Dr Walls, who worked in the Dublin Eye and Ear Hospital, was also a talented Irish dancer. She had spent a year with Riverdance on Broadway, New York, before going on to university.

But French air accident investigators have now discovered a large piece of fuselage and engine from the Airbus A330 plane, French Transport Minister Nathalie Kosciusko-Morizet has confirmed.

"A large part of the plane has been found, all in one piece, and human bodies have also been found," she told Radio France Inter.

Black boxes

"There is now hope that the black boxes will also be found quickly."

The black boxes were fitted with locater beacons, known as 'pingers', which send an electronic impulse every second, but only for around 30 days before battery power runs out.

There are also doubts over whether vital information on the boxes could be preserved after more than 18 months underwater, the French defence ministry said.

The hunt for the wreckage around 1,500 miles north-east of the Brazilian port of Recife resumed last month after initial searches found only 50 bodies and hundreds of small fragments of the smashed aircraft.

A preliminary investigation found that the crash could have been caused by faulty speed sensors, called "pitot tubes" which iced over during the flight.

Plane-maker Airbus was last month charged with the manslaughter of the 228 victims - including five Britons and the three Irish doctors.

The company could now face a full trial in the coming months over the crash.

Air France has also been summoned to court to answer accusations it did not respond quickly enough to reports that speed sensors might be faulty.

[Minder]

One of two flight recorders from an Air France plane that crashed in 2009 off the coast of Brazil has been recovered, officials say.
France's Bureau of Investigation said in a statement that the device was "in good physical condition".
French search teams last week found the outer casing of the so-called black box recorder, but not its memory.
The Air France Airbus plane went down in the Atlantic on 1 June 2009, killing all 228 people on board.
Cockpit conversations
The wreckage was discovered last month after a long search of 10,000 sq km (3,860 sq miles) of sea floor.
The remains of the plane were found only on a fourth attempt, using robots capable of operating 4,000m (13,120ft) below the ocean's surface.
The Paris-bound Air France jet went down after running into an intense high-altitude thunderstorm, four hours following take-off from Rio de Janeiro.
Those on board came from more than 30 countries, though most were French, Brazilian or German.
Experts say the data in the flight recorders - which records cockpit conversations - is the only hope of finding out why the plane crashed into the sea.
But one expert told the Associated Press that the data recorder's information may yet prove unusable, as it was subjected to underwater pressure for nearly two years.
"We can't say in advance that we're going to be able to read it until it's been opened," a spokeswoman told the news agency.
The data recorders are expected to be sent back to Paris for testing.

[Tony Baloney]

One of two flight recorders from an Air France plane that crashed in 2009 off the coast of Brazil has been recovered, officials say.
France's Bureau of Investigation said in a statement that the device was "in good physical condition".
French search teams last week found the outer casing of the so-called black box recorder, but not its memory.
The Air France Airbus plane went down in the Atlantic on 1 June 2009, killing all 228 people on board.
Cockpit conversations
The wreckage was discovered last month after a long search of 10,000 sq km (3,860 sq miles) of sea floor.
The remains of the plane were found only on a fourth attempt, using robots capable of operating 4,000m (13,120ft) below the ocean's surface.
The Paris-bound Air France jet went down after running into an intense high-altitude thunderstorm, four hours following take-off from Rio de Janeiro.
Those on board came from more than 30 countries, though most were French, Brazilian or German.
Experts say the data in the flight recorders - which records cockpit conversations - is the only hope of finding out why the plane crashed into the sea.
But one expert told the Associated Press that the data recorder's information may yet prove unusable, as it was subjected to underwater pressure for nearly two years.
"We can't say in advance that we're going to be able to read it until it's been opened," a spokeswoman told the news agency.
The data recorders are expected to be sent back to Paris for testing.

Fair fucks to the French for sticking at it. Hope they get some useable information.

[orangeman]

No word on the identifcation of those found on board the wrecakge they found ?

[orangeman]

What a complete nightmare :


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13572569

[ludermor]

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/0601/breaking33.html

75 bodies recovered.

[muppet]

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2011/06/04/357360/investigators-try-to-explain-crew-reaction-to-af447s.html

Any article I've seen tries to paint a complete picture without acknowledging that most of the canvas is missing.

That article talks about climbing at 7000 feet per minute from 35,000 feet. It mentions a 'turbulent layer' which most people will think refers to the odd few bumbs that occur on any flight. To climb at 7000 feet per minute at that altitude (which before this I would have reckoned was impossible in a large commercial aircraft tbh) required either a totally disorientated crew pointing the nose at the sky (insane) or an encounter with a monstrous storm cell and associated updraft (literally air rising with a huge speed and force), or some combination of both.

We know there was such a storm in the vicinity but the article only suggests it might have disoriented the crew possibly by icing up the speed probes, which is likely. But it doesn't consider it as the cause of the high rate of climb which it surely had to be a huge factor. Heavy aircraft do not climb well at high altitude. Something had to help it other than a disorientated pilot.

The other factor is, in a storm as you leave a big updraft you are very likely to encounter a massive downdraft. That might explain the sudden temporary increase in speed and start of the rapid descent.

The more questions they answer the more questions seem to arise. But to me there seems to be evidence that they were in a huge storm (probes blocked by icing, initial massive rate of climb at high altitude, turbulence and disorientation). The tone of the recent articles is to simply blame the pilots for losing control. Imho that is too simplistic.

Some info on huge storm cells and associated updrafts and downdrafts: http://www.corymottice.com/category/severe-weather/

What Is a Supercell Thunderstorm?

A supercell is a thunderstorm that has a deep, continuously rotating updraft. Supercells are the least common type of thunderstorm, and have the most potential to be severe. In order to get this rotating updraft that we see in supercells, the winds must veer with height (or turn clockwise with height). For example, the winds at the surface are out of the southeast and the winds 15,000 feet up in the atmosphere are out of the southwest. You may often hear this referred to as directional shear.

Another necessary component to all thunderstorms is the downdraft. As the warm, moist air rises in a thunderstorm it will eventually condense and form rain droplets. This rain is cooler and more dense than its surrounding environment so it begins to fall back to the Earth's surface. The stronger the updraft is, the stronger the downdraft can be. In the image below, the red arrow indicates the updraft region in a supercell, and the blue arrow denotes the downdraft region. Supercells create an environment of their own, so they can last several hours as opposed to the 30 minutes or so that an ordinary thunderstorm typically lasts.



The updraft region of a supercell usually has little to no rain associated with it. This is because winds generally increase in speed with height, so this tilts the updraft. This tilting of the updraft allows the rain to fall away from the updraft region. If the winds were the same speed from the surface all the way to the top of the thunderstorm, it would never be able to mature since the downdraft and updraft would be in the same place, thus canceling each other out.