Ronan O'Gara stock rising on OWC!

[Donagh]

The Ireland rugby team doesn't represent a political state, it represents the 4 provincial branches that make up the IRFU. The only correct representational symbols are the IRFU flag and Ireland's Call. TSS shouldn't be played in Dublin because the team is not a 26 county representative side. If the President is on hand - is she ever not? - it would be perfectly correct to play the President's Salute, then get on with it. Playing the TSS is not only disrespectful towards people from the unionist tradition, it also irritates those of us from the nationalist community who regard TSS and the tricolour as free state emblems.

What "community" is that - the Ulster nationalists of the DUP? I've never met an Irish nationalist would is irritated by the flag of the Irish Republic. What is "TSS" btw?

You should get out more. There's a whole big world outside. TSS - as in the 'Soldier's Song'. Yeah, yeah, I know it's A Soldier's Song, strictly speaking, but I'm trying not to refer to it as ASS. I refuse to refer to it in its Irish form as firstly, the song was written in English to be sung in English. Secondly, like 99% of the country I don't speak Irish, so why pretend? Personally, I'm secure enough in my own identity not to need the Paddy Irishman stuff, but you carry on if it floats your boat. Slan. 

What, you mean like going onto sports websites I've no interest in, and making a fool of myself? Aye, I must get out more.

Mind the door doesn't slap your arse on the way out...

[Roger]

The Ireland rugby team doesn't represent a political state, it represents the 4 provincial branches that make up the IRFU. The only correct representational symbols are the IRFU flag and Ireland's Call. TSS shouldn't be played in Dublin because the team is not a 26 county representative side. If the President is on hand - is she ever not? - it would be perfectly correct to play the President's Salute, then get on with it. Playing the TSS is not only disrespectful towards people from the unionist tradition, it also irritates those of us from the nationalist community who regard TSS and the tricolour as free state emblems.

But what about the people in the south who regard the flag and anthem as the flag and anthem of their country, Ireland. The rugby team represents Ireland, and people from the six counties are entitled to play if they wish and if they are picked.

Irish rugby players are all entitled to play for Ireland if they are eligible under IRB rules, good enough and selected. It has f**k all to do with Political opinion or anthem preference. 

Legends like Trevor Ringland, a noted unionist, was proud to play for the country and didnt mind the anthem and flag. Many many others didnt complain. The first to complain and make a fuss was the nut job Tweed. Why we pandered to him is a mystery. If it upset him that much, he didnt have to play - but he did. No going back now though, as to do it now would be an insult to unionists

Who is we and when did 'you' pander to him and with what?

[Myles Na G.]

The Ireland rugby team doesn't represent a political state, it represents the 4 provincial branches that make up the IRFU. The only correct representational symbols are the IRFU flag and Ireland's Call. TSS shouldn't be played in Dublin because the team is not a 26 county representative side. If the President is on hand - is she ever not? - it would be perfectly correct to play the President's Salute, then get on with it. Playing the TSS is not only disrespectful towards people from the unionist tradition, it also irritates those of us from the nationalist community who regard TSS and the tricolour as free state emblems.

What "community" is that - the Ulster nationalists of the DUP? I've never met an Irish nationalist would is irritated by the flag of the Irish Republic. What is "TSS" btw?

You should get out more. There's a whole big world outside. TSS - as in the 'Soldier's Song'. Yeah, yeah, I know it's A Soldier's Song, strictly speaking, but I'm trying not to refer to it as ASS. I refuse to refer to it in its Irish form as firstly, the song was written in English to be sung in English. Secondly, like 99% of the country I don't speak Irish, so why pretend? Personally, I'm secure enough in my own identity not to need the Paddy Irishman stuff, but you carry on if it floats your boat. Slan. 

What, you mean like going onto sports websites I've no interest in, and making a fool of myself? Aye, I must get out more.

Mind the door doesn't slap your arse on the way out...

No, I mean like going out more, actually through the door, that kind of thing. Meet a few people outside your own wee republican circle, people who don't always conform to your stereotype.

[Jim_Murphy_74]

But what about the people in the south who regard the flag and anthem as the flag and anthem of their country, Ireland. The rugby team represents Ireland, and people from the six counties are entitled to play if they wish and if they are picked

A couple of points on that.  You are factually correct to some extent.  

However, the country "Ireland" as defined in the constitution is the 26-counties.  The amendement from 1998 recognises that Northern Ireland is a separate state.  Articles 2 and 3 which extended that definitiion of "Ireland" to include the 6 counties was removed.  Given that people (bar some republicans) accept our constitution and the GFA was given an overwhelming majority I think we can take it as acceptable to recognise that an All-Ireland team goes beyond the particular jurisdiction of "Ireland" that the flag and anthem apply to.

You may personally believe the anthem and tricolour apply to some 32-County entity/country/terrority (and indeed believe that so do a majority of people on the island).  But, it is only a belief.  The legal, constitutional position as voted on by an All-Island majority is clear.

Legends like Trevor Ringland, a noted unionist, was proud to play for the country and didnt mind the anthem and flag. Many many others didnt complain

No doubt, but they would have been within their rights to complain.  

The first to complain and make a fuss was the nut job Tweed. Why we pandered to him is a mystery. If it upset him that much, he didnt have to play - but he did. No going back now though, as to do it now would be an insult to unionists

Again, correct to an extent:  Tweed is a nut job.  That said, I wouldn't give him the credit for Ireland's Call.  It seems to be retrospectively assigned to him, given his arrival on the scene at the same time and his widely known political views.  However, the whole anthem thing was being discussed from 87 onwards with the World Cup meaning Ireland were playing more away games.  Was the "Rose of Tralee" and "Danny Boy" not used in this context?  This predated Mr. Tweed's involvement with the Irish set-up.

No going back now though, as to do it now would be an insult to unionists

Agreed.  I would go further and ditch God Save the Queen and Amhrán na bhFiann from all All-Ireland rugby team contexts.  To be honest I'd be happy to extend that policy to all sports.  

One thing:  It actually fascinates me that republicans do not agree with this.  Surely to get as many things organised on an All-Ireland basis (sports, cultural events etc...) would be a much better achievement towards a 32-County ideal than adopting an uncompromising attitude to a one-verse song?

[Donagh]

No, I mean like going out more, actually through the door, that kind of thing. Meet a few people outside your own wee republican circle, people who don't always conform to your stereotype.

Oh you're back again? Okay, saying that we're talking about stereotypes, prehaps you would like to point out what I have said on this thread that makes you think I and all my firends republicans?

[Lar Naparka]

One thing:  It actually fascinates me that republicans do not agree with this.  Surely to get as many things organised on an All-Ireland basis (sports, cultural events etc...) would be a much better achievement towards a 32-County ideal than adopting an uncompromising attitude to a one-verse song?

I must agree with you there, Jim.
Since the days of Partition and before, it has been official IRFU policy to regard the island as a single unit and to maintain and promote the game of Rugby on that basis.
At a meeting of the IRFU Council in 1926, (I think) what had been happening in practice for many years became part of official policy.
This is all the more surprising in light of the fact that the game was extremely elitist at that time and that the vast majority of those involved must have been very pro-British and anti-Republican in political matters. 
It may be a surprise to some but the IRFU has striven to live up to its remit since then and the Border and any other matter of a political or religious nature is firmly sidelined.
I could well believe that Unionist and Republican could co-exist and co-operate without hassle if both adhered to the ethos of Rugby. They could very well knock f**k out of each other in private and nobody in officialdom would bat the proverbial eyelid as long as their differences did not spill over into rugby affairs.
When the above-mentioned Davy Tweed was involved in a Loyalist demonstration and was pictured on top of a barricade, waving a Union Jack, sometime in the early 90s I think, the IRFU were quick to rebuke him.
I was told sometime afterwards by a member of the Ulster council that Tweed was free to do as he pleased in his personal life as long as he brought no discredit on the game. At the time of the protest he was strongly identified in the public eye with the Irish team, although his international career was over by then and was still active at club level.
I would have no doubt whatsoever that if Ronan O'Gara had contrived to make a political statement by disrespecting the Queen in any way, the IRFU would not have hesitated in taking action.
Personally, I think the matter of him being photographed with his hands in his pockets shouldn't cause anyone to read too much into the fact. If he really wanted to drive home a political point, he could have boycotted the meeting.
This seems to have been an informal meeting and probably ROG had been waiting in line for some time to shake hands. If I had a skinful of free booze inside me at the time, I'd not have been too hung up about protocol either.
Since the IRFU has not seen fit to comment, I don't think either the Queen or the player will be losing any sleep over the meeting either. 

[Rossfan]

.
I would have no doubt whatsoever that if Ronan O'Gara had contrived to make a political statement by disrespecting the Queen in any way, the IRFU would not have hesitated in taking action.
Personally, I think the matter of him being photographed with his hands in his pockets shouldn't cause anyone to read too much into the fact. If he really wanted to drive home a political point, he could have boycotted the meeting.

If an Irishman wants to go about in his own Country with his hands in his pockets that's his right as an Irish Citizen  no matter what foreign Head of State might be passing through the room.

[stew]

. Playing the TSS is not only disrespectful towards people from the unionist tradition, it also irritates those of us from the nationalist community who regard TSS and the tricolour as free state emblems.

Why laugh, I think this is sad.

[Tonto]

The Ireland rugby team doesn't represent a political state, it represents the 4 provincial branches that make up the IRFU. The only correct representational symbols are the IRFU flag and Ireland's Call. TSS shouldn't be played in Dublin because the team is not a 26 county representative side. If the President is on hand - is she ever not? - it would be perfectly correct to play the President's Salute, then get on with it. Playing the TSS is not only disrespectful towards people from the unionist tradition, it also irritates those of us from the nationalist community who regard TSS and the tricolour as free state emblems.

What "community" is that - the Ulster nationalists of the DUP? I've never met an Irish nationalist would is irritated by the flag of the Irish Republic. What is "TSS" btw?

The DUP aren't nationalists, Ulster or otherwise.

The clue is in their title.

[ziggysego]

The DUP aren't nationalists, Ulster or otherwise.

The clue is in their title.

I'm sure the DUP would say they're Ulster men and women. Albeit, the 6 county kind

[Tonto]

The DUP aren't nationalists, Ulster or otherwise.

The clue is in their title.

I'm sure the DUP would say they're Ulster men and women. Albeit, the 6 county kind

Yes. 

Does that make them nationalists?

[stibhan]

The DUP aren't nationalists, Ulster or otherwise.

The clue is in their title.

I'm sure the DUP would say they're Ulster men and women. Albeit, the 6 county kind

Yes. 

Does that make them nationalists?

Look up Ulster nationalism, it'll enlighten you. They are surely at least British nationalists anyway?

[Declan]

Letter in todays Indo

Tuesday May 12 2009

Reading the hoo ha about Ronan O'Gara's stance before the British queen reminds me that, when I was a boy, every second home international used to be played in Belfast and the British anthem used to be played.
One year Tom Clifford, the great forward from the Young Munster club, danced a jig during the anthem.
The loyal gentlemen of the IRFU were enraged and needless to say he was never picked again.
However, the upshot was that public opinion prevailed and all games are played in Dublin where due respect is given to the national anthem and flag.
God bless Ronan O'Gara. I hope he will not suffer the same fate as Clifford.

Brian P O Cinneide
Essenwood Road, Durban

[Tonto]

The DUP aren't nationalists, Ulster or otherwise.

The clue is in their title.

I'm sure the DUP would say they're Ulster men and women. Albeit, the 6 county kind

Yes. 

Does that make them nationalists?

Look up Ulster nationalism, it'll enlighten you. They are surely at least British nationalists anyway?

I know what Ulster nationalism is - I was seeing if Ziggy did.

OK, fair enough, I will give you that they could be defined as British Nationalists

[longrunsthefox]

Letter in todays Indo

Tuesday May 12 2009

Reading the hoo ha about Ronan O'Gara's stance before the British queen reminds me that, when I was a boy, every second home international used to be played in Belfast and the British anthem used to be played.
One year Tom Clifford, the great forward from the Young Munster club, danced a jig during the anthem.
The loyal gentlemen of the IRFU were enraged and needless to say he was never picked again.
However, the upshot was that public opinion prevailed and all games are played in Dublin where due respect is given to the national anthem and flag.
God bless Ronan O'Gara. I hope he will not suffer the same fate as Clifford.

Brian P O Cinneide
Essenwood Road, Durban

I remember that nice man Tommy Wright who did goals for our wee country do same in Lansdowne Road for playing of Amhrán na bhFiann