Dublin v Kerry

INDIANA · March 28, 2009, 11:36:00 AM

I think Tyrone you're wrong on that. Most teams that go well in the championship have decent league campaigns. They mighn't win it but they put a few markers down. Its a different story with a proven team like that Armagh team who had very experienced players winning a tough provincial championship regularly who just needed an extra 5%. Dublin could win leinster again (which I don't think they will) and learn nothing. A game with a strong Dublin team against a very strong Kerry team tomorrow could be an invalubale tool later on in the season especially if we won. We haven't beaten kerry for about 5 years now in the league. I defy anyone to tell me you can build a winning platform by losing all the time.
Look at kilkenny and kerry- they breed excellence by winning, winning and winning again. Dublin seem to want to go the backdoor route this year. Well they may find its not as simple as they think. i'm really disappointed with our attitude towards the league.

Stevie Nicks · March 28, 2009, 11:45:14 AM

Quote from: Tyrone Dreamer on March 28, 2009, 11:25:57 AM
Quote from: INDIANA on March 28, 2009, 08:36:30 AM
Zulu tell me the last game Dublin won against good opposition when missing the 2 brogans and Whelan. All being "rested". Crazy shit really.
The answer- they haven't. The ambivalence towards the league is quite extraordinary .
Most managers would put out a good side to play one of the best teams in the country. We "rest" players and give away the points. You've no idea how pissed off the fans are with this attitude and they will start voting with their feet soon. No-one went to Mayo last week to watch them. Ordinarily we'd fill Ballina on our own.
Extraordinary stuff really.

Gaa fans can be very short sighted. I don't know much about Gilroy but now is not the time to judge him. Plenty of managers have put little into the league and come up with All Ireland winning teams. Did Armagh get relegated in Joe Kernans first year when they went onto the All Ireland? Gilroy is obviously focusing solely on the championship is this is what he will obviously be judged on. Surely your not going to judge him on the league? He's there to stay so give the man a chance.

Tyrone Armagh were beat in the Div 2 Semi final by Laois in Big Joe's first year as far as I can remember. Last year Tyrone have been the first team in a few years to have a bad league and do well in the championship. A strong league is certainly a benefit for later in the year. To me Dublin should be putting out a stronger team to face Kerry as they are looking at relegation which is not good prep.

Tyrone Dreamer · March 28, 2009, 11:50:23 AM

Quote from: Stevie Nicks on March 28, 2009, 11:45:14 AM
Quote from: Tyrone Dreamer on March 28, 2009, 11:25:57 AM
Quote from: INDIANA on March 28, 2009, 08:36:30 AM
Zulu tell me the last game Dublin won against good opposition when missing the 2 brogans and Whelan. All being "rested". Crazy shit really.
The answer- they haven't. The ambivalence towards the league is quite extraordinary .
Most managers would put out a good side to play one of the best teams in the country. We "rest" players and give away the points. You've no idea how pissed off the fans are with this attitude and they will start voting with their feet soon. No-one went to Mayo last week to watch them. Ordinarily we'd fill Ballina on our own.
Extraordinary stuff really.

Gaa fans can be very short sighted. I don't know much about Gilroy but now is not the time to judge him. Plenty of managers have put little into the league and come up with All Ireland winning teams. Did Armagh get relegated in Joe Kernans first year when they went onto the All Ireland? Gilroy is obviously focusing solely on the championship is this is what he will obviously be judged on. Surely your not going to judge him on the league? He's there to stay so give the man a chance.

Tyrone Armagh were beat in the Div 2 Semi final by Laois in Big Joe's first year as far as I can remember. Last year Tyrone have been the first team in a few years to have a bad league and do well in the championship. A strong league is certainly a benefit for later in the year. To me Dublin should be putting out a stronger team to face Kerry as they are looking at relegation which is not good prep.

Must be getting mixed up. I remember them playing Laois in divison 1 sem in 03 so they couldnt have been relegated in 2002.

Tyrone Dreamer · March 28, 2009, 11:54:35 AM

Still dont think a strong league is essential for the championship. Different managers will have different approaches and there's no perfect formula. Gilroy will be judged on what happens come August not now. Tyrone proved last year you dont have to have a good league to win the All Ireland. This is a pretty experienced Dublin team who have been involved in plenty of big games over the years and not been far away in a lot of them. Not sure what impact a few league wins would have come August.

Stevie Nicks · March 28, 2009, 12:01:56 PM

Yes Tyrone they were beat by Laois in Longford in 02 semi and in 03 as part of a double header in Croke Park. Most managers I would say use the League to look outside the usual suspects but they would definite want to avoid relegation.

Zulu · March 28, 2009, 12:27:26 PM

Quote from: Tyrone Dreamer on March 28, 2009, 11:54:35 AM
Still dont think a strong league is essential for the championship. Different managers will have different approaches and there's no perfect formula. Gilroy will be judged on what happens come August not now. Tyrone proved last year you dont have to have a good league to win the All Ireland. This is a pretty experienced Dublin team who have been involved in plenty of big games over the years and not been far away in a lot of them. Not sure what impact a few league wins would have come August.

Dead right TD, Dublin are a proven team that have fallen just short themselves over the past few years, haven't they generally been beaten by the eventual AI winners these past number of years (Mayo excepted)?

QuoteLook at kilkenny and kerry- they breed excellence by winning, winning and winning again.

But they do this by having such a massive pick of top quality players, look at the Kerry teams that have been picked so far this year in the league, indeed look at all the players they are missing for this game. They, like Kilkenny, can afford to be without some of their best players and still compete and win but the Dublin's of this world generally can't. But the only way to see if you have some undiscovered gem in your arsenal is to give them game time and Gilroy is doing this. He knows what Whelan brings to the party but he needs to find out if Magee can transfer his club form to IC level and what better way of doing it than against Kerry?

INDIANA · March 28, 2009, 03:42:05 PM

We haven't beaten a proven senior inter county team since 1995 Zulu -thats a statistical fact. So I can't agree Dublin are proven by beating bad laois teams, bad meath teams, and average wexford and westmeath teams. Dublin are nowhere near proven except in their own heads.

Zulu · March 28, 2009, 03:54:46 PM

In fairness Indiana ye also beat Derry, drew with Tyrone and ran Kerry to one or two points, I mean Mayo, Wexford, Down, Cork, Laois and Fermanagh have all beaten Kerry, Tyrone or Armagh in the past few years but I'd rate Dublin higher than all of those teams except Cork. I'm not saying Dublin have a brilliant team but ye do have a good one and Gilroy is using the league to try and find that extra bit of quality that might make the difference. I don't think it is there myself (well from what I've seen anyway) but he is right to try IMO and I think criticizing him for it is a bit harsh.

INDIANA · March 28, 2009, 04:08:37 PM

Its a general criticism Zulu and one i had of the previous management. A general ambivalence towards the league hasn't done us any favours since 1995. And I'm disappointed to see the torch being carried again in this regard.

Zulu · March 28, 2009, 04:14:48 PM

Well fair enough and I don't agree that the league being treated with ambivalence myself, especially for teams who haven't been successful recently but you have to look at players and it's often the only semi-competitive environment to do so.

DUBSFORSAM1 · March 28, 2009, 05:48:02 PM

While wishing we did well in the league I said at the start if we find a full-back and 1 or 2 other starters for the championship then the league will be a success as far as I am concerned...

We have found a fullback (at least it looks like it) in Bastic who is playing well.
We have found potentially a decent corner back in Hubbard.
Brennan has had a number of games and has been seen to be more of a wingback than a centre back which is good.
Ross has had a number of games in midfield and is starting to settle in
James Brogan looked reasonable at wing back and has potential at wing back/wing forward
Dermot Connolly is getting more gametime and hopefully will start to show some more consistency.
Blaine Kelly has been tried and unfortunately doesn't look up to it...
Peadar Andrews has been tried at corner back and is now being played at corner forward and hopefully he will show his stuff and win a place.
Griffen is being tried at at CHB where he won a club All-Ireland, Magee at midfield and Davoren at full-forward - again more changes..

Both Brogans are/have been injured so its better not to risk hamstring damage to them
Guys like Fennell, Moran, Quinn, Flynn have been injured and the Crokes guys have been missing and other guys like Daly etc have also got gametime as subs

So we have tried guys in different positions, tried new players, new combinations etc and its far better to do this in the league rather than in the championship and not know what happens..

INDIANA · March 28, 2009, 06:49:48 PM

DSFM you're entitled to your views but they are over-optimistic in my view. The biggest problem with Dublin football is an inability and unwillingness to actually take a harsh reality view of where we are and move from there in all aspects within the county from underage to senior. We work from the premise that we are footballing superpower. Sadly that isn't the case. And until we actually take the view then we might return to former glories. Until then we'll be waiting.

Hound · March 28, 2009, 07:40:51 PM

I'd be with DFS on this. Particularly when a manager is in his first year, he has every right to experiment in the league. In fact he'd be silly not to. Pillar's team couldnt get there so new things have to be tried.

INDIANA · March 28, 2009, 10:25:25 PM

with kerry now in the final lets hope the kerry lads are on a well earned session tonight.

DUBSFORSAM1 · March 29, 2009, 08:04:32 AM

Quote from: INDIANA on March 28, 2009, 06:49:48 PM
DSFM you're entitled to your views but they are over-optimistic in my view. The biggest problem with Dublin football is an inability and unwillingness to actually take a harsh reality view of where we are and move from there in all aspects within the county from underage to senior. We work from the premise that we are footballing superpower. Sadly that isn't the case. And until we actually take the view then we might return to former glories. Until then we'll be waiting.

Sorry but where am I over-optimistic there? I haven't said we will win anything or we are doing brilliantly or anything....I have said with a new manager we have to experiment and see what we can bring through and this is when to do it....The guys who have been there the last few years haven't done it so changes need to be made...

Your arguement is based on the whole structure of Gaelic Football in Dublin from underage upwards which is totally different to this discussion about the choices made by Gilroy at senior level which needs a rejig like we have done with underage hurling....