Armagh v Laois

[bigpaul]

On Mc Evoy and Martin, I thought both gave good accounts of themselves considering their lack of experience, however both made very expensive mistakes in the second-half. Mc Evoy took one particular kickout that fell between two Laois men, with not an Armagh player in sight, which I think resulted in a score. Martin,who was good under the high ball all night, failed to deal with one that should have been 'bread and butter' for Laois's second goal.In both  cases, mistakes at this stage aren't too serious as long as the lessons are learned! I still think Brendan Donaghy is shaping to be one of the most natural full-backs I have seen in a long time and cannot see anyone else taking that position as long as he is not injured.    

Yes Martin maybe should have done better for that high ball - the only blot on his copybook.

I know the kickout you are referring too, but he put it into the heart of midfield. Was not his fault neither midfielder jumped for it,. His kickouts were very good, a lot of inventive ones too. His shot-stopping superb. Overall an excellent performance.

We'll have to disagree on that kickout, it did go straight down the middle but both Armagh midfielders were never there or even going to be there! But his shot stopping was as good as I have seen and as I said, mistakes at his stage of his county career are/should always be forgiven!
I also meant to add a comment on the rules experiment.On the first weekend of the Mc Kenna Cup I defended the introduction of the rules and asked for time to be given to see how they would work, however I have watched a lot of matches and have come to the same conclusion as Throwball, the rules now reward divers and cheats. Also, as things stood, referees had a major bearing on the outcome of games,this has now been multiplied many times, a bad referee always could have a major effect on a game but the experimental rules give him more opportunities to do so. If  these rules had been in force when Paudie Hughes lost it during the Tyrone - Westmeath match last year what sort of spectacle would it have been?  

[corn02]

On Mc Evoy and Martin, I thought both gave good accounts of themselves considering their lack of experience, however both made very expensive mistakes in the second-half. Mc Evoy took one particular kickout that fell between two Laois men, with not an Armagh player in sight, which I think resulted in a score. Martin,who was good under the high ball all night, failed to deal with one that should have been 'bread and butter' for Laois's second goal.In both  cases, mistakes at this stage aren't too serious as long as the lessons are learned! I still think Brendan Donaghy is shaping to be one of the most natural full-backs I have seen in a long time and cannot see anyone else taking that position as long as he is not injured.    

Yes Martin maybe should have done better for that high ball - the only blot on his copybook.

I know the kickout you are referring too, but he put it into the heart of midfield. Was not his fault neither midfielder jumped for it,. His kickouts were very good, a lot of inventive ones too. His shot-stopping superb. Overall an excellent performance.

We'll have to disagree on that kickout, it did go straight down the middle but both Armagh midfielders were never there or even going to be there! But his shot stopping was as good as I have seen and as I said, mistakes at his stage of his county career are/should always be forgiven!
I also meant to add a comment on the rules experiment.On the first weekend of the Mc Kenna Cup I defended the introduction of the rules and asked for time to be given to see how they would work, however I have watched a lot of matches and have come to the same conclusion as Throwball, the rules now reward divers and cheats. Also, as things stood, referees had a major bearing on the outcome of games,this has now been multiplied many times, a bad referee always could have a major effect on a game but the experimental rules give him more opportunities to do so. If  these rules had been in force when Paudie Hughes lost it during the Tyrone - Westmeath match last year what sort of spectacle would it have been?  

Fair enough so, I thought the one nearer half time was a worse one.

Spot on about the rules. Matches are turing into pantomines at times.

[bigpaul]

That one doesn't come to mind,I was down the other end,but I was surprised at the praise he was getting for his kickouts.Thats not to say that there weren't more good than bad,however it wasn't what you would call a 'better than average' effort. I expect new players to make mistakes,it's their overall performance that has to be looked at, tonight Mc Evoy would have got a B+, I would not expect a lot of work to have been done on kickouts at this time of year! Believe it or not my biggest disappointment of the night came before the match! I went to the Dublin-Tyrone match in Croke Park a fortnight ago, was in early and saw the warm-ups of both teams. The warm up I saw Armagh doing tonight was slipshod in comparison to Tyrone's that night!   

[David McKeown]

I thought Clancy was superb tonight but what on Earth did he have to do get a yellow card, was it my imagination or was he ticked twice?  As well as being involved in the melee he also appeared to headbutt  Lavery in the immediate build up to second goal.  Given that the following offences were yellow card offences tonight im surprised Clancy finished the game.

High tackle
Third man tackle
Stirking when it happens in the first half

and the following offences were red card offences

Striking
Standing near the referee when he has the red card in his hand and has lost control

In relation to the sendings off I wouldnt be surprised if the GAA took some action along the same lines as Dublin v Meath last year but id also be surprised if JP's suspension stood up.

Ill comment more on the game in the morning

[brokencrossbar1]

Didn't see the game, but I would be careful about criticism of the referee.  While he may have been poor sometimes it can be used as a mask for the poor play of a team.  Also it looks like sour grapes to the winning team and over time people get reputations of ref whingers(and I feel that after most Armagh defeats the ref gets a blasting).

A few observations on the learned postings of the contributors here.  I am glad to see McEvoy playing well.  He was always a good keeper when I played against him.  Vincie Martin was always a fine player and could make the cut by the sounds of things.  Henderson is somewhere between the Wexford game and last might.  I don't buy into the whole confidence thing.  If he is a confidence player he is not a county player who will make the difference.  You may be able to carry a player like that at club level but not at county.  I would still persist with him as he obviously has talent, but if he is going to be a hot and cold player, he will not be a starter, he will be an impact sub.  Young O'Rourke is talented, but has he the strength to make the step up?  Can Toal be kept interested?  Vernon is obviously a great find for the middle, could this see the benching of Paul McGrane?  I think by the sounds of things so far Vernon needs to start in the middle, you then have Toner, McGrane, McKenna,Lavery and Courtney as genuine MF's along with him.

I know that many are pushing AOR to start, but I think the way the game is played you need an extremely mobile HB line and Aidan could be a liability.  I do not doubt his ability, but to play him at 6 you need to sacrifice a HF to cover the loose play around the middle, where a mobile CHB would be able to do it.  These are all just musing from afar but come championship time you want these issues sorted so it is better to find them out now in the relative safety of the League.

[mackers]

Think this line that Armagh poster's using the referee as an excuse is being overplayed. I, along with other posters, have made it clear that although the ref was brutal, that the better team won. He was not the winning and the losing of the match but he didn't half ruin it as a spectacle!!
These new rules have their strengths and weaknesses (like the old ones) but what is vitally important is that they are applied consistently. Yes, Ciaran McKeever and AOR both deserved to walk but as stated here earlier Clancy should've walked about three times.
Two points were important but last night has shown as BC1 has said Vernon's best position is midfield, young McEvoy could be a real alternative to Hearty, and we need to have a long hard look at CHB (last night didn't help as both of the main candidates were on the line for a large part of the game).

[INDIANA]

Who was good for Laois? I think Dempsey will be the man to get the best out of them. I think he trained them all at underage level. Thats a big wn for Laois , an awful hard place to win is Armagh

[Carbery]

Reading over some of the postings about the Armagh and Laois game I have two suggestions to make:-
(i) Pat Fox will probably get the All-Ireland SFC final and
(ii) There would seem to be plenty of room on the Armagh team for the Crossmaglen boys.

[bennydorano]

I feckin knew it, was going to back Laois at 11/4 only to chicken out at the last minute.

Have to agree regarding the ref he was shocking hard on Armagh - and I dont give a shite if it sounds like sour grapes.  He had a fair hand in the row too, I thought Paudie Hughes had a lot to answer for in the Sigerson row between Qub & UUJ and this had a lot of similarities.

Having got the moans out of the way Laois clearly deserved their win, the mobility of their forwards being the difference, for the posters who reckon our style has changed to be more attacking - I cant see it. When chasing the game near the end it was still hoof it into the FF, just because we had maybe 3 men in there instead of 2 doesn't mean there's been a sea-change in tactics.  Vernon, who was excellent, seemed to be fighting a lone battle around the middle, which certainly didn't help matters. 

Happy to see the faith in Vincey Martin being vindicated, he had an excellent game although he was directly at fault for the second goal.  MCEvoy must have clearly established himself ahead of Rogers in the pecking order after that show.  In the forwards  Kevin O'Rourke showed that he has plenty to offer and I still reckon he'll be in there ahead of Henderson come the summer.  Henderson was probably due an off night and it'll do him no harm as it'll kill the hype hopefully and let him get the head down and work.

I wouldn't get too despondent, we have an awful lot men to come in.

[corn02]

Didn't see the game, but I would be careful about criticism of the referee.  While he may have been poor sometimes it can be used as a mask for the poor play of a team.  Also it looks like sour grapes to the winning team and over time people get reputations of ref whingers(and I feel that after most Armagh defeats the ref gets a blasting).

A few observations on the learned postings of the contributors here.  I am glad to see McEvoy playing well.  He was always a good keeper when I played against him.  Vincie Martin was always a fine player and could make the cut by the sounds of things.  Henderson is somewhere between the Wexford game and last might.  I don't buy into the whole confidence thing.  If he is a confidence player he is not a county player who will make the difference.  You may be able to carry a player like that at club level but not at county.  I would still persist with him as he obviously has talent, but if he is going to be a hot and cold player, he will not be a starter, he will be an impact sub.  Young O'Rourke is talented, but has he the strength to make the step up?  Can Toal be kept interested?  Vernon is obviously a great find for the middle, could this see the benching of Paul McGrane?  I think by the sounds of things so far Vernon needs to start in the middle, you then have Toner, McGrane, McKenna,Lavery and Courtney as genuine MF's along with him.

I know that many are pushing AOR to start, but I think the way the game is played you need an extremely mobile HB line and Aidan could be a liability.  I do not doubt his ability, but to play him at 6 you need to sacrifice a HF to cover the loose play around the middle, where a mobile CHB would be able to do it.  These are all just musing from afar but come championship time you want these issues sorted so it is better to find them out now in the relative safety of the League.

Good points all round.

[corn02]

I feckin knew it, was going to back Laois at 11/4 only to chicken out at the last minute.

Have to agree regarding the ref he was shocking hard on Armagh - and I dont give a shite if it sounds like sour grapes.  He had a fair hand in the row too, I thought Paudie Hughes had a lot to answer for in the Sigerson row between Qub & UUJ and this had a lot of similarities.

Having got the moans out of the way Laois clearly deserved their win, the mobility of their forwards being the difference, for the posters who reckon our style has changed to be more attacking - I cant see it. When chasing the game near the end it was still hoof it into the FF, just because we had maybe 3 men in there instead of 2 doesn't mean there's been a sea-cahnge in tactics.  Vernon, who was excellent, seemed to be fighting a lone battle around the middle, which certainly didn't help matters. 

Happy to see the faith in Vincey Martin being vindicated, he had an excellent game although he was directly at fault for the second goal.  MCEvoy must have clearly established himself ahead of Rogers in the pecking order after that show.  In the forwards  Kevin O'Rourke showed that he has plenty to offer and I still reckon he'll be in there ahead of Henderson come the summer.  Henderson was probably due an off night and it'll do him no harm as it'll kill the hype hopefully and let him get the head down and work.

I wouldn't get too despondent, we have an awful lot men to come in.

Spot on Benny.

The same men, not on this forum btw but another Armagh one, will propbably be proclaiming us as useless. The same boys were probably calling us All-Ireland favourites after Wexford.

[mackers]

If Armagh are going to try out different players and systems I suppose inconsistency will follow. Benny, when was the last time you saw a wing forward run thirty yards up the middle of an Armagh defence and plant the ball in the net? Laois run up the middle of our defence repeatedly. This happened because we didn't have a "sweeper" CHB and MOR and others loading up our defence. Now for the time being if that's a by-product of less conservative way of playing I'll live with it, it obviously needs worked on and Saturday nights in February are the place to learn how to correct this.
We are also finding out that certain players maybe aren't up to standard but again now is the time to find this out.
Panic will always set in at the end of a game when you are a goal down and every team in the country will end up launching the long ball in, I wouldn't read too much into that. There were encouraging signs of an improved style of forward play (then again there were signs of this last year too, primarily the Dublin game).

[mackers]

IBenny, when was the last time you saw a wing forward run thirty yards up the middle of an Armagh defence and plant the ball in the net? 

I meant wing back..........

[Winnie Peg]

Is it not time that Armagh realised that they are not in the second division for the third [fourth ]year in a row for nothing. name a top eight team Armagh have beaten in the last 18 months? As regards the new rules, remember that Joe Kernan was a member of the committee who put them in Place.

[mackers]

Is it not time that Armagh realised that they are not in the second division for the third [fourth ]year in a row for nothing. name a top eight team Armagh have beaten in the last 18 months? As regards the new rules, remember that Joe Kernan was a member of the committee who put them in Place.

Winnie, Armagh have not had a full squad for the majority of the last three league campaigns due to Cross's success.............are Dublin not in the top eight teams in the country, drew with AI semi finalists Cork last year. As regards the rules, personally I don't have any complaints as yet, most of the complaints on this thread have been about the way they were implemented last night.