Maigh Eo -v- Doire, Ballina, 01.02.2009

[RedandGreenSniper]

For the same reason that Dublin have won four Leinster titles in a row but haven't been in an All-Ireland final since 1995. That is that we have a lot of players of a certain level - good players, but not enough top class lads. Always produce good underage teams in Mayo but not enough great players coming through

[moysider]

Can someone from Mayo hazard a guess at despite reaaching several all-ireland underage finals in the last 5/6 years , why they are at such a low ebb? Can't figure it out myself. Or is it just a case of the january bluesi

I m shy about recommending you revise the relevant threads here over the last two years because you ll have better things to do.I dont have the heart for rekindling the debate. But some people saw this train coming a long way away. Our situation is not hopeless because as you ve pointed out they re are player resources there. However the men in charge of making the most of them need to get their act together. It may be only Febuary this is their third Spring rebuilding and it still looks like demolition to me.

[INDIANA]

For the same reason that Dublin have won four Leinster titles in a row but haven't been in an All-Ireland final since 1995. That is that we have a lot of players of a certain level - good players, but not enough top class lads. Always produce good underage teams in Mayo but not enough great players coming through

we don't produce good underage teams in dublin as our record proves. Which is part of the reason why we don't win all-irelands. Mayo prouduce top class minors and u21's every second year.(I've seen them myself and some of them are top class) So i don't agree with that. Something much bigger wrong if you ask me in Mayo . Anyway don't want to rehash it but I can never understand the amount of lads who disappear off the face off the earth up there in football terms.

[moysider]

is there a lot of self delusion going on about our new full back. 

Cafferkey seemed a good defender even if he let his man have a lot of ball.

I thought Cafferkey did fairly well. His man always seemed to be first to the ball,

Caff - Beaten to the ball a lot but defended well after a first 5mins that looked like he would get wiped out

this adds up to having a stinker of  a game which he did. he looked cluless and reacted about 5 seconds late every time. only that o'malley was there to mind the house things would have bee a lot worse.
Cunniffe too was a disaster at CHB . and that was with the constant support of either Andy or BJP. his busting runs though very quick rarely go anywhere and 3 time yesterday the ball landed in opprnts hand Leaving him completely out of position. An absolute no no for a central defender and indeed the cause of derrys goal .which won them the game f Vaughn may not have looked great but at least he did no harm.
overall we were not much behind derry but again our failure to win close games is fatal. Mayo are missing a spark an extra gear or an inspirational figure(maybe with a pony tail) and when they look to the side line one get the impression all they would get would be the same excuses the media are subjected to.
anyone else reckon the referee got embarred yellow carding derry lads in the 1st half and chicken out in the 2nf . esp when C Mort was dragged down in front of the goal. Cassidy was whining after about how many yellows they got to mayo zero . maybe if mayo had played a little closer to the line the result would be different

Alright Ros I think you ve nailed a few points here. I noticed earlier another poster blamed Pat Kelly for Derry goal when in fact it was Cunniffe who gave the ball away. However I think you re harsh on Cafferkey and you ve done something you ve been against - dismiss a young player as not up to it after one showing. I was afraid of this in general anyway and posted last week that I was wary of him being seen as the great white hope as a 3. I doubt anybody on this board has seen him play more than I have. In fact very few full stop. It was a surprise to me Mayo played him there underage. He s better elsewhere but he could do a better job at 3 than anybody else available. The same thing has happened Pat Kelly( minor 99 - had played all his football at midfield until then) and David Heaney was pressed into the role after Cahill retired, stagnating his own career and depriving the team of a dynamic attacking force. There s no guarantee that Caff will ever grow into the role but he has to be given time. Personally I d have him at at 6 and give him his head and let him stride out with the ball. He could be a great 6.

[RedandGreenSniper]

For the same reason that Dublin have won four Leinster titles in a row but haven't been in an All-Ireland final since 1995. That is that we have a lot of players of a certain level - good players, but not enough top class lads. Always produce good underage teams in Mayo but not enough great players coming through

we don't produce good underage teams in dublin as our record proves. Which is part of the reason why we don't win all-irelands. Mayo prouduce top class minors and u21's every second year.(I've seen them myself and some of them are top class) So i don't agree with that. Something much bigger wrong if you ask me in Mayo . Anyway don't want to rehash it but I can never understand the amount of lads who disappear off the face off the earth up there in football terms.

My answer there doesn't really answer your entire question. What I am saying is that we have good underage teams, solid all around, but perhaps not full of gifted lads. I could go through each of the teams but the bottom line is that my opinion is that we don't currently have the players to win an All-Ireland. I don't quite agree with the phrase 'top class minors and under 21s every second year', that would be stretching it. Have we the players to do better? Yes, but as Moysider says, that's a depressing tale which would be hard to sum up in short

EDIT: Last year's minor team was the exception, as it had a good few talented individuals. But that's not relevant to the current senior squad, maybe in two years time

[MacDanger]

That's probably a fair point, we tend to have very good underage teams rather than very good individual players.

[moysider]

That's probably a fair point, we tend to have very good underage teams rather than very good individual players.

There was 6 or 7 very good individual players on last years minor team that some of us pinpointed 12 months ago. Unfortunately it was a few ordinary ones, and no bench that cost us. The U21 team that won AI was based around a few better players in defense and  midfield. Ditto last years team.

[Barney]

Something much bigger wrong if you ask me in Mayo

It begins and ends with the County Board in my opinion.

They don't go on the pitch but they are living in the stone ages and more interested in playing their political games (GAA politics, more than FG). Facilities in the county are poor, the assistance for managers and teams are poor.

As moysider says the problems could be seen 2 years ago. The kniving of Mickey Moran (which started during the National League and finished after the All Ireland) has set us back - and we deserve no less. The sad thing is we have yet to hit rock bottom and we must do before things improve.

Another problem is the 2004 and 2006 All irelands. A lot of young players have been ruined by those experiences. They saw they were a million miles away from beating Kerry. Unlike say the Clare team of the 90s they didn't go away and see what they could do to bridge that gap but instead are happy luxuriating in their role as Mayo footballers, without seeking success. This group went toe to toe with many of the current Tyrone players at underage. The graph has gone in the opposite directions for both teams since. Why?

And the funny thing is vilified and all has he is and has been nobody has done more for the Mayo senior footballers than John Maughan. The players might not like is honest style but maybe a dose of his reality for some of them would do no harm. Unless there is a Connacht championship won this year he will be back next year.

[the Deel Rover]

From the Mayonews today
 
Tuesday, 03 February 2009 
Time to pick up the pieces and move on


Reaction
Daniel Carey

"WHAT we need to do is to pick up the pieces and dust ourselves down and go to Donegal – and move on."
The words of John O'Mahony, speaking 24 hours after Mayo's defeat to Derry in the opening round of the National Football League. The men in green and red will head to Ballybofey for the second round the weekend after next, hoping to register their first points of the new season.
The Ballaghaderreen clubman said both players and management 'felt that we could have closed out the game' having drawn level, but Derry's strong finish saw them take the points.
"It was disappointing," O'Mahony said of the result. "I suppose there were a couple of things. We had good chances in the first half, and we were playing it very direct, and we were setting up chances. But I suppose in the second half, they got the goal – it was the only shot they had on goal all day, really, and they scored it. Again, we fought back well from that, and there was a lot of positive work done, but what was frustrating is that we didn't kick on from when we got back level again. So that's the disappointing thing. And we played the ball less direct in the second half. That's something, obviously, that we'll have to look at – that we stick to a game plan."
Asked what positives he could take from the game, O'Mahony pointed to a number of different areas of the field.
"I felt that the full-back line did fine for the most part. I know that their corner forward got a goal, but I think it was more about the grouping in defence rather than anything, and we gave away ball further out the field. But I thought the full-back line did fine. There were periods when Ronan McGarrity got a good bit of ball around the middle of the field as well. And in the full-forward line, I think that when we did play the ball quickly and directly, we had something at the end of it. Barry Moran was at the end of a lot of it, and he created chances both for himself and for others, based on that direct ball. So they'd be some of the positives. Obviously the disappointment is to lose the points, because there were aspects of the performance that were good, but what was the real disappointment is not to have something out of the game."
O'Mahony was philosophical about the fact that Mayo's home defeat leaves them under pressure earlier in the season than they would like, saying simply: "That's the nature of it."
"I knew going into the league that it'd be difficult enough," he added. "You have some of the top teams. You have the last four All-Ireland winners and three of the last couple of National League champions. So it's tough. But we just have to keep grafting. We had a few lads out injured, and that can be difficult, and we're only a week together. But I don't want to make excuses. We were disappointed. I think in all the circumstances, with all the disadvantages we had going in, I feel – and we all felt – ... that we could have closed out the game, and that would have been a great start. So that's the frustrating thing."
The only injury reported was a dead leg to Trevor Mortimer, which is unlikely to unduly trouble the Shrule/Glencorrib man. Some observers suggested that Derry's physicality posed problems for Mayo.
"We play with the players that we have," O'Mahony responded. "We have a certain amount of physicality as well, but we have to pick a team that is produced from the talent that we have available to us. And you can have good players who are not strong and physical. But if they come up to the required quality in the county, they'll  also be up there. We had physicality in certain aspects of the field. Obviously, we have a lot of smaller, pacier players. But you can analyse it to death, to be honest. I think that what we need to do is to pick up the pieces and dust ourselves down and go to Donegal – and move on, to be honest."

[Mayo4Sam]

Can someone from Mayo hazard a guess at despite reaaching several all-ireland underage finals in the last 5/6 years , why they are at such a low ebb? Can't figure it out myself. Or is it just a case of the january bluesi

I blame Moysider 

Good to see JOM coming up with a lot of the points we had and that he realises our best period was when theball went in direct

[RedandGreenSniper]

Something much bigger wrong if you ask me in Mayo

It begins and ends with the County Board in my opinion.

They don't go on the pitch but they are living in the stone ages and more interested in playing their political games (GAA politics, more than FG). Facilities in the county are poor, the assistance for managers and teams are poor.

As moysider says the problems could be seen 2 years ago. The kniving of Mickey Moran (which started during the National League and finished after the All Ireland) has set us back - and we deserve no less. The sad thing is we have yet to hit rock bottom and we must do before things improve.


And the funny thing is vilified and all has he is and has been nobody has done more for the Mayo senior footballers than John Maughan. The players might not like is honest style but maybe a dose of his reality for some of them would do no harm. Unless there is a Connacht championship won this year he will be back next year.

I'm not arguing with you Barney, for I feel your argument has some merit. But what is the solution? There is, in the worst way, a need for young blood at county board level in Mayo. There are plenty of good young administrators involved with clubs in the county but will we see them? In an age where it is getting harder and harder to get people involved with the clubs, those clubs won't be willing to let these people go forward for the risk of losing them at club level. What we end up with is delegates who are, in the main, older and former chairmen/secretaries of their clubs who are useful for parts of the delegates role - canvassing, tickets etc, but not too thirsty for change.

What is happening in Cork is probably the extreme end of it, where you have delegates not willing to stand up for what they believe in, just happy to go with the flow. Mayo wouldn't be a million miles away from that either. We need an infusion of young, interested and able delegates and, in time, some of these people making the step up to county board level. The only three new people in recent years to go onto the county board in Mayo, afaik, are Eamonn Clarke, Mike Connelly and Noelle Horan. Noelle is gone and I won't go over that again. Mike and Eamonn have something to contribute. But there needs to be a big cry for change if anything resembling progress is to be seen.

The current county board have done good work with regard to McHale Park and Sean Feeney, despite having many critics, has done a lot of very good work for the county. But I do think he has been there long enough. But unless there are people willing and able to step into his shoes, we're not going to have any change.

[Maradona]

Ah, lads, this is really getting frustrating. As far as I see, and I agree with some posters, we appear to be going backwards. I really don't want to appear alarmist after the first league game of the year, but in my mind this game was exactly the sort game that should act as a barometer and see if we are indeed progressing, particularly as we have failed abysmally against them many times before, and unfortunately we have failed again. Funnily enough, our next game is against a team that we also always appear to struggle against, and indeed one that I feel acts as a good gauge of progress - maybe and hopefully we can start the graph moving upwards next time out.

I really feel that there is a serious lack of progress being made in all respects and the pressure will soon start to tell on a lot of these young lads that are now been thrust into the light of expectation. Where I feel we really need to get real on are the following, simply put, get a bit more M-A-Y-O!


MOTIVATION
This is I thought would be one of the biggest assets that JOM would bring to the set-up, however its a long time that I seen a Mayo teams so lacking in motivation as I have seen under O'Mahony. God, I was totally under-motivated myself last year heading into the Tyrone match, along with most other mayo fans, having listened to the down-playing utterances from JOM all year. Jaysus John, THIS HAS TO STOP! sure how can the players respond to constant lowering of expectations? I have this awful that the players are totally un-motivated under JOM and we are not that far away from the Cork situation. I hope not, but I have this feeling...

We should enter every league and championship aiming to WIN it. Sure we have proven time and time again that we are well capable of getting to the latter stages regularly, more than the vast majority of teams, so just get on with it and instill a win-at-all costs mentality.

AGGRESSION
Lets face it, we have always lacked it. I always think that along with Laois and Kildare, we are the 'nice' boys of football - and until this changes, we will continue to be also-rans. And sometimes we need a bit of cynicism too, at the right time. Lets be honest, and this is not meant to be a slight on any of the lads picked the last day, but was there ever a nicer, less cynical inter-county team put out on a pitch? Jaysus, bar one or two, you would be delighted for any of those lads to marry your daughter!! Sound lads to bring to the trenches, but would not survive the war. Its something that has GOT to be brought into our game. We have not bulked up like we have been saying we will since 2004. Tyrones and kerrys are leaving us miles behind in this respect.

YOUTH
Probably the root of it all is our under-age system. You reap what you sow and we are not coaching our youth properly - how many senior players are just so obviously lacking basic skills? Compare to a Kerry or Tyrone corner back who can comfortably waltz up the pitch and tap over a score. Our colleges, despite some recent relative success, are not really at the races nationally, indeed some are dropping back.
Until we implement a comprehensive, well structured under-age system that reaches across all ages, across college, club and county to develop young players, in respect of skills and behavior, in a consistent and uniform manner towards the ultimate goal of representing and winning with the county, then I think we will continue to struggle.


OPERATION
Our operation and tactics (or lack of) on the pitch have continuously failed us down through the years and not just by JOM. These have been well highlighted here, none better that the fact that it appears that no one has taken Andy Moran aside and reviewed his game approach? If someone has and he cant respond to it, then we need to look at other options. How can you play a 6' 5" FF, kick the ball into him for the first half and almost ignore him in the second half and the manager notes it? Well I have seen it happen before, so why is it still happening? Can we not designate someone to 45's and have them practice til they are converting 80-90% of them? If you or I practiced taking a 45 enough we would hit more than miss.



Look, I know its only the start of the season, but really we are 2/3 our way into this re-building thing and I really don't think we are any closer to an All Ireland than we were when JOM took over, in fact I think we are about 50% less likely.

Please god I'm wrong

[MacDanger]

That's probably a fair point, we tend to have very good underage teams rather than very good individual players.

There was 6 or 7 very good individual players on last years minor team that some of us pinpointed 12 months ago. Unfortunately it was a few ordinary ones, and no bench that cost us. The U21 team that won AI was based around a few better players in defense and  midfield. Ditto last years team.

True, there were plenty of good players on those but how many really outstanding players? From last years minors only A O'Se could be considered to be a "star". And that's what we end up with at senior level, plenty of good players around a similar level but not quite good enough to cut it with Kerry/Tyrone.

Reasonably encouraged by JOMs comments after the game, at least he realises that we lacked shape and need to play it more directly. Whether he can rectify this over the months ahead remains to be seen.

[Barney]

I have this awful that the players are totally un-motivated under JOM and we are not that far away from the Cork situation. I hope not, but I have this feeling...

Have the same feeling/fear myself Maradonna - things could get very ugly but the next 2 or 3 league matches will tell alot.

The County Board will not make any moves against their Manager - and the man has been appointed for better or for worse for the year and should be allowed to see out that term.  I think the Mayo fans will not make any move. However the players might. The failure to make any changes to the backroom team during the off-season may be the critical factor.

[screenexile]

Jesus lads this is some post mortem after just the first game of the year! And I thought us Derry lads were bad!

In fairness ye were only beat by a point and contrary to what a lot of people have said the last few years we actually do have alot of good players so I wouldn't be beating yourselves up too much over it.