Ogra Sinn Fein and their Commemoration at Narrow Water

[nifan]

or by flying a flag that has no official function, but is specific to the north it should play an anthem that has no official function, but is specific to the north.

agreed

[saffron sam2]

or by flying a flag that has no official function, but is specific to the north it should play an anthem that has no official function, but is specific to the north.

agreed

That's all well and good, but what's your opinion on Ogra Sinn Fein and their Commemoration at Narrow Water*?

* Not my words.  I just copied and pasted the thread title.

[Evil Genius]

its also the line of reasoning of his [Myles Na G's] alter ego on this board, sentiments that have been frequently expressed before.
These same arguments and how they are put across are how its easy to identfy who it is, some spotted it long before me I have to admit.
eg GAA are a political org
GAA should drop their 'we want to reach out to unionsts'
citing and fixation on the 'Gaa rules/rulebook'
preoccupied with the hunger strikers
etc

ring any bells ?

What exactly do you mean by (his) "alter ago"? What is it you have now "spotted"? What "bells" are ringing?

I can see you've been Online since I posted the above questions. Any chance of a reply?

[Evil Genius]

Lynchboy has not just "now" spotted anything.

Read the appropriate posts in the thread.

I have done. What exactly is it that you/he are saying? 

You, too, Main Street. Care to elaborate?

[Evil Genius]

The scenario in the north of Ireland is such that it will take mindsets to change , that gestures etc wont ever affect
eg - if you changed all the GAA clubs names to meaningless nicknames like 'eagles, bulls, rhinos ' etc do you think that would alter unionist/loyalist mindsets towards the GAA?

I dont believe so.

But is the Union Jack and GSTQ not two of the big sticks used to beat the IFA with? Do many Nationalists not have major issues with these symbols, or do such Nationalists just need to change their mindset in relation to these symbols/gestures.

Like Saffron Sam (above), I don't presently have time for "cavalry duty"  , but on a point of information, the Union Flag is not flown/used by the IFA in connection with the NI team in any way, nor has it been for years. Otherwise I think that you make a good point (as ever), Maguire01.

I am sure that hyperspace breathed a massive sigh of relief when it realised both of us are far too busy to do this thread justice.

Howver I would like to point out that whilst your (admittedly irrelevant) point of information is indeed factually correct, I feel obliged to point out that whilst not used at NI matches by the IFA, it is almost de rigeur at all other major matches organised by the IFA. Secondly, it should also be pointed out that it is replaced at NI matches by an even more contentious flag, the widely discredited Ulster banner. Thirdly, since the subject of consistency has reared its head on this thread, it should be noted that the IFA policy re. flags and anthems is not consistent; surely by playing GSTQ, they should also fly the UJ; or by flying a flag that has no official function, but is specific to the north it should play an anthem that has no official function, but is specific to the north.

It is a myth that the IFA flies the UF at internationals etc - it doesn't. And out of the hundreds of soccer clubs in NI, a number of the fans of a handful of them bring UF's to matches. There is nothing the IFA can do about this any more than they can about e.g. those fans of Cliftonville or Newry bringing Tricolours to matches. Ditto the Scottish FA for fans of Rangers and Celtic, for example. By contrast, I understand it is a requirement of the GAA that the Tricolour be flown officially at all GAA games throughout Ireland (albeit that this may be "more honoured in the breach than the observance").
Anyhow, I personally feel the NI team should have an NI-specific Anthem, to go with its NI-specific flag and I am far from being alone amongst NI fans in believing that.
Clear enough?
Anyhow, aside from clearing up Maguire01's misunderstanding on the flag, the point of my original post was to express my agreement with his general point.

[lynchbhoy]

its also the line of reasoning of his [Myles Na G's] alter ego on this board, sentiments that have been frequently expressed before.
These same arguments and how they are put across are how its easy to identfy who it is, some spotted it long before me I have to admit.
eg GAA are a political org
GAA should drop their 'we want to reach out to unionsts'
citing and fixation on the 'Gaa rules/rulebook'
preoccupied with the hunger strikers
etc

ring any bells ?

What exactly do you mean by (his) "alter ago"? What is it you have now "spotted"? What "bells" are ringing?

I can see you've been Online since I posted the above questions. Any chance of a reply?

you know only too well

is it irony?

funny how you seem to be getting heated up and 'tetchy' over this !


I purposely didnt reply to see whether you would as expected in your tizzy, ask again.....all the signs of guilt imo !

[Main Street]

Lynchboy has not just "now" spotted anything.

Read the appropriate posts in the thread.

I have done. What exactly is it that you/he are saying? 

You, too, Main Street. Care to elaborate?

I would only be repeating what I have already written in my few posts on this thread.
So feck off and read them.
If you have a precise question about a precise statement I made, then feel free to be specifically curious.
With that done, at least then I can see that you have read my posts and gauge your level of ignorance about some simple sentences written in plain English.
And then I can see if it is worth my time to reply.

[his holiness nb]

You misrepresented me with the accusation that I played up my Catholic / nationalist background.

I dont think thats true at all, as I maintain that you DID play up your catholic / nationalist background.

This was particularly poor form on your part, as you were one of the posters who asked me a direct question about my background. You also started a general discussion amongst other posters on the subject.

I just asked you to clarify if it were indeed yourself who made previous comments as I couldnt remember for sure.
How thats poor form I'll never know 

And after this, in my opinion, you played up your background,so I did ask the question as to who believed you, as many had already said they didnt. But I clearly said that I did beleive you.
I suppose saying I believe you is poor form too??

As for the football boots quote, go back and read the whole sentence again. Start with the word 'if'.

I see after your personal rant about my alleged "poor form" you end with this as an explanation??
I am perfectly aware that you used the word "if" but not in the context of the GAA being "sinn fein in football boots". There was no "if" about that in your comments, and your attempts to muddy the waters just make you look like a coward who doesnt have the balls to at least admit he meant what he said or else retract the statement.

[nifan]

That's all well and good, but what's your opinion on Ogra Sinn Fein and their Commemoration at Narrow Water*?

* Not my words.  I just copied and pasted the thread title.

Couldn't really give a shite. If people want to visit the site of something like this thats up to them. What they get out of it is their call. I wouldnt want to particularly visit but nobodies making me.

[Evil Genius]

Indeed, I'd be interested in the opinions of anyone who is following this spat, especially someone who comes from a Unionist perspective.

Firstly, I tend to concur with lynchboy's opinions here:

The scenario in the north of Ireland is such that it will take mindsets to change , that gestures etc wont ever affect
eg - if you changed all the GAA clubs names to meaningless nicknames like 'eagles, bulls, rhinos ' etc do you think that would alter unionist/loyalist mindsets towards the GAA?

I wonder if many, or any, in the Unionist community pay enough attention to what happens within the GAA to pay any attention to the name of any particular club.
Would changing the name of the Kevin Lynch club in Dungiven to, say, Eagle Rovers persuade any of the encircling cavalry to dismount and attempt some form of dialogue with those behind the wagon line?
I don't think, that even if the GAA was somehow able to insist on the alteration of club's names, that this move would meet with widespread appreciation from 'themmuns' as EG is wont to call them.
I'd really feel that there are two many cultural and historical barriers to be surmounted before GAA games could be regarded as all-inclusive in the North. If any problems with clubs' names could be resolved, others would inevitably arise.
But, that's only what I think; I'd be quite interested to hear the views of others, especially those on 'cavalry duty.'
Once more I certainly agree with lynchboy, at least where this matter is concerned:

I dont believe so.
the problem will only be cured after the passing of time and the development of trust and forgetting of reasoning why one side dislikes the other. imo its out of our hands and for th enext generation or so, quiet continuation will be better than making a big song and dance over opinions that vary from household to household either side of the 'divide'.

Whilst it is generally true that attitudes need to change before conditions will, nonetheless when someone like Lynchboy posts "The scenario in the north of Ireland is such that it will take mindsets to change , that gestures etc wont ever affect", imo he is using this as a cop-out for avoiding making any significant changes, for any reason. That is because his posts reveal to me a consistent refusal to alter his hardline mindset with regard to any such issue.
And this reluctance to countenance any change is invariably based on the premise that "Sure whatever we do, we'll never please Themmuns". Which itself is premised on the notion "... because Themmuns is all the same".
Of course, there are many on the Unionist side who, even if the GAA were to introduce reform on such matters, would doubtless dismiss it as mere windowdressing i.e. "Sure Themmuns is still the same Republicans they alway were etc".
As such, such hardliners are actually no different from each other - an irony which is no doubt lost on all of them.

However, from reading this Board, one of the things I have learned/had reinforced, is that not everyone amongst "Themmuns" thinks exactly the same, just as I know that not everyone of "Ussuns" is e.g. a card-carrying Paisleyite Fenian-hater etc.

Therefore, if an organisation such as the GAA genuinely wishes to cross the divide and invite significant cross-community participation etc, I believe it can be achieved - the only question is how long this might take. Now Lynchboy, I think, upholds the notion that in the absence of any movement by the GAA, time alone may somehow engender the change of mindset required from Unionists for them to join in in Gaelic Games. Personally, I cannot decide whether he truly means that (possibly on the basis that it'll be decades before it happens, so the status quo will happily see him out), or whether he secretly believes (hopes?) it will never happen.  Anyhow, it is my personal opinion that if he is expecting NI Unionists to "jump first", in the absence of any movement from the GAA, then I suspect Ireland will be flooded by Global Warming before that ever happens!

How to solve this conundrum? In an ideal world, both sides would "hold hands and jump together", a principle which I would basically support. Of course like Apple Pie and Motherhood, "jumping together" is all very well in principle, but harder to achieve in practice. But to take the example of GAA club names, the view of this Unionist is as follows. If I had a kid who was interested in GAA, I would not permit him to play in a League/Championship/Competition/Stadium etc which was named after someone like Kevin Lynch, who as far as I can see, is primarily being "honoured" not for his prowess on the pitch, or his contribution towards GAA in Dungiven, but for his involvement in the INLA etc. Similarly, I would not let the same kid have anything to do with soccer, if it meant coming up against something like "Billy Wright Memorial FC" etc. This is both because I find it completely unacceptable for such individuals to be commemorated in such a way, but also because more generally, I believe that sport (of any code) should avoid embracing politics wherever possible.

That said, since we are all forced to live in the real world where not everything is always possible, a degree of latitude and tolerance needs to be maintained. And on the subject of contentious club names, I understand and accept that the clubs in question will be resistant to making changes - especially at the behest of someone like me. Therefore, out of respect for the History and traditions of the GAA (even if it is history and tradition with which I personally cannot empathise), I would propose the following rule of thumb. Namely, it should be acceptable for clubs to commemorate individuals who lived and died before any of us were born, but avoid individuals whose activities directly affected people alive in the present day. Therefore, clubs named after e.g. Wolfe Tone or Sir Roger Casement ought not to have to change, whereas those such as Kevin Lynch should. (And btw, no-one but Lynchboy is suggesting that there should be a wholesale renaming of clubs as Rhinos, Bears, Eagles etc, I daresay Dungiven Gaels, Harps or St. Patricks etc would suit fine).

So there you have it, Lar. Of course, in advocating "jumping together" someone still has to reach their hand out first, before approaching the edge together. Who might that be? I would suggest it needs to be the GAA, for the simple reason that if they want to be truly "cross-community" in NI, then if they don't reach out first, it simply won't happen. (After all, people like me are forever being told that as non-members, we have no right to tell the GAA what they must do, which I accept)

But as someone from the community to which the GAA asserts it wants to "reach out", my response would be simple: "You may have your Nationalist ethos*, but not Unionists, or, you may have Unionists, but not your Nationalist ethos. That is, you cannot have it both ways, but you do have a choice".

And in the meantime, soccer fans like myself who decry the mixing of sport with politics and religion etc, will take (a selfish) comfort from the knowledge that we may always appeal to "your" Pat Jennings or Gerry Armstrong, but GAA will never appeal to "our" George Best or David Healy (sorry for the use of crude terminology, btw).

Back to you.


* - Which is not to say that the GAA should be required to rewrite or airbrush their history and traditions etc entirely, btw. I believe it would do people from my community a power of good if they were to know more about the history and traditions of your community. Consequently, if I ask that they not be waved in my face in the normal run of things, neither can I have any objection to this type of thing having pride of place in the History Books, or the Museum in Croke Park etc.

[Evil Genius]

its also the line of reasoning of his [Myles Na G's] alter ego on this board, sentiments that have been frequently expressed before.
These same arguments and how they are put across are how its easy to identfy who it is, some spotted it long before me I have to admit.
eg GAA are a political org
GAA should drop their 'we want to reach out to unionsts'
citing and fixation on the 'Gaa rules/rulebook'
preoccupied with the hunger strikers
etc

ring any bells ?

What exactly do you mean by (his) "alter ago"? What is it you have now "spotted"? What "bells" are ringing?

I can see you've been Online since I posted the above questions. Any chance of a reply?

you know only too well

is it irony?

funny how you seem to be getting heated up and 'tetchy' over this !


I purposely didnt reply to see whether you would as expected in your tizzy, ask again.....all the signs of guilt imo !

So as there be no room for misunderstanding, are/were you implying that I am actually Myles Na G?

(And btw, I am neither "heated" nor tetchy" over this, never mind feeling "guilt". As those Members who have pm'ed me on this can aver, I am actually hugely amused by it all )

[Evil Genius]

Lynchboy has not just "now" spotted anything.

Read the appropriate posts in the thread.

I have done. What exactly is it that you/he are saying? 

You, too, Main Street. Care to elaborate?

I would only be repeating what I have already written in my few posts on this thread.
So feck off and read them.
If you have a precise question about a precise statement I made, then feel free to be specifically curious.
With that done, at least then I can see that you have read my posts and gauge your level of ignorance about some simple sentences written in plain English.
And then I can see if it is worth my time to reply.

In his post # 240, Lynchboy implied that "Myles Na G" is actually the alter ago of another member, whom I took to be me. And you appeared to back him up on this in post #242 (albeit obliquely).

Am I correct in what I surmised?

[lynchbhoy]

Whilst it is generally true that attitudes need to change before conditions will, nonetheless when someone like Lynchboy posts "The scenario in the north of Ireland is such that it will take mindsets to change , that gestures etc wont ever affect", imo he is using this as a cop-out for avoiding making any significant changes, for any reason. That is because his posts reveal to me a consistent refusal to alter his hardline mindset with regard to any such issue.
And this reluctance to countenance any change is invariably based on the premise that "Sure whatever we do, we'll never please Themmuns". Which itself is premised on the notion "... because Themmuns is all the same".

Of course, there are many on the Unionist side who, even if the GAA were to introduce reform on such matters, would doubtless dismiss it as mere windowdressing i.e. "Sure Themmuns is still the same Republicans they alway were etc".
As such, such hardliners are actually no different from each other - an irony which is no doubt lost on all of them.

However, from reading this Board, one of the things I have learned/had reinforced, is that not everyone amongst "Themmuns" thinks exactly the same, just as I know that not everyone of "Ussuns" is e.g. a card-carrying Paisleyite Fenian-hater etc.

The word 'drivel ' springs to mind ....no actual reasoning - merely trying to make a subjective case for something that doesn't exist.

Therefore, if an organisation such as the GAA genuinely wishes to cross the divide and invite significant cross-community participation etc, I believe it can be achieved - the only question is how long this might take. Now Lynchboy, I think, upholds the notion that in the absence of any movement by the GAA, time alone may somehow engender the change of mindset required from Unionists for them to join in in Gaelic Games. Personally, I cannot decide whether he truly means that (possibly on the basis that it'll be decades before it happens, so the status quo will happily see him out), or whether he secretly believes (hopes?) it will never happen.  Anyhow, it is my personal opinion that if he is expecting NI Unionists to "jump first", in the absence of any movement from the GAA, then I suspect Ireland will be flooded by Global Warming before that ever happens!

Again incorrectly trying to apply his subjective negativity about me here , obv taking it personally and missing the point
Anyhow the bit in bold answers the actual question – identifying that I am correct in saying that realistically it is going to take a long time (how much garbage did he have to write to hide or get to this point ! . As for the other assertions, again – shouldn't take it so personally if you are caught out!

How to solve this conundrum? In an ideal world, both sides would "hold hands and jump together", a principle which I would basically support. Of course like Apple Pie and Motherhood, "jumping together" is all very well in principle, but harder to achieve in practice. But to take the example of GAA club names, the view of this Unionist is as follows. If I had a kid who was interested in GAA, I would not permit him to play in a League/Championship/Competition/Stadium etc which was named after someone like Kevin Lynch, who as far as I can see, is primarily being "honoured" not for his prowess on the pitch, or his contribution towards GAA in Dungiven, but for his involvement in the INLA etc. Similarly, I would not let the same kid have anything to do with soccer, if it meant coming up against something like "Billy Wright Memorial FC" etc. This is both because I find it completely unacceptable for such individuals to be commemorated in such a way, but also because more generally, I believe that sport (of any code) should avoid embracing politics wherever possible.

::)Sigh, that's what you would like to think, re-read again your own drivel about us-ones and them ones etc...

That said, since we are all forced to live in the real world where not everything is always possible, a degree of latitude and tolerance needs to be maintained. And on the subject of contentious club names, I understand and accept that the clubs in question will be resistant to making changes - especially at the behest of someone like me. Therefore, out of respect for the History and traditions of the GAA (even if it is history and tradition with which I personally cannot empathise), I would propose the following rule of thumb. Namely, it should be acceptable for clubs to commemorate individuals who lived and died before any of us were born, but avoid individuals whose activities directly affected people alive in the present day. Therefore, clubs named after e.g. Wolfe Tone or Sir Roger Casement ought not to have to change, whereas those such as Kevin Lynch should. (And btw, no-one but Lynchboy is suggesting that there should be a wholesale renaming of clubs as Rhinos, Bears, Eagles etc, I daresay Dungiven Gaels, Harps or St. Patricks etc would suit fine).

So there you have it, Lar. Of course, in advocating "jumping together" someone still has to reach their hand out first, before approaching the edge together. Who might that be? I would suggest it needs to be the GAA, for the simple reason that if they want to be truly "cross-community" in NI, then if they don't reach out first, it simply won't happen. (After all, people like me are forever being told that as non-members, we have no right to tell the GAA what they must do, which I accept)

But as someone from the community to which the GAA asserts it wants to "reach out", my response would be simple: "You may have your Nationalist ethos*, but not Unionists, or, you may have Unionists, but not your Nationalist ethos. That is, you cannot have it both ways, but you do have a choice".

And in the meantime, soccer fans like myself who decry the mixing of sport with politics and religion etc, will take (a selfish) comfort from the knowledge that we may always appeal to "your" Pat Jennings or Gerry Armstrong, but GAA will never appeal to "our" George Best or David Healy (sorry for the use of crude terminology, btw).

Back to you.


* - Which is not to say that the GAA should be required to rewrite or airbrush their history and traditions etc entirely, btw. I believe it would do people from my community a power of good if they were to know more about the history and traditions of your community. Consequently, if I ask that they not be waved in my face in the normal run of things, neither can I have any objection to this type of thing having pride of place in the History Books, or the Museum in Croke Park etc.

A simple answer of – 'it will take time, and no – the renaming of clubs wouldn't have any effect' , a two liner would have done ! 
You didn't even have to point out that I was correct!
Interesting that the likes of Wolfe tone or casement are ok, it proves again my point that in a couple of generations time, the McAnespies  club, Kevin Lynch hurling club etc etc will be equally as acceptable , with the passing of time!

[Myles Na G.]

You misrepresented me with the accusation that I played up my Catholic / nationalist background.

I dont think thats true at all, as I maintain that you DID play up your catholic / nationalist background.

This was particularly poor form on your part, as you were one of the posters who asked me a direct question about my background. You also started a general discussion amongst other posters on the subject.

I just asked you to clarify if it were indeed yourself who made previous comments as I couldnt remember for sure.
How thats poor form I'll never know 

And after this, in my opinion, you played up your background,so I did ask the question as to who believed you, as many had already said they didnt. But I clearly said that I did beleive you.
I suppose saying I believe you is poor form too??

As for the football boots quote, go back and read the whole sentence again. Start with the word 'if'.

I see after your personal rant about my alleged "poor form" you end with this as an explanation??
I am perfectly aware that you used the word "if" but not in the context of the GAA being "sinn fein in football boots". There was no "if" about that in your comments, and your attempts to muddy the waters just make you look like a coward who doesnt have the balls to at least admit he meant what he said or else retract the statement.

Fine. Show me where. Quote the posts.

As for there being no 'if' in my football comments, here's the complete sentence, rather than the snippet you and others have quoted:
'If the GAA doesn't want to recognise that there are still many people living with the legacy of the recent conflict, people who had family members killed or injured by those Kevin Lynch would have considered his comrades, it should acknowledge that, in the north of Ireland at least, it is basically Sinn Fein in football boots.'
Take out the qualifying clauses: 'If the GAA doesn't want to recognise that there are still many people living with the legacy of the recent conflict, it should acknowledge that it is basically Sinn Fein in football boots.' Still makes perfect sense, doesn't it? The qualifying clauses do not change the conditional nature of the sentence. I can't make it any clearer than that. If you or anyone else still doesn't get it, I'm sorry, there's nothing I can do. Take it up with your old English language teacher.

[lynchbhoy]

You misrepresented me with the accusation that I played up my Catholic / nationalist background.

I dont think thats true at all, as I maintain that you DID play up your catholic / nationalist background.

This was particularly poor form on your part, as you were one of the posters who asked me a direct question about my background. You also started a general discussion amongst other posters on the subject.

I just asked you to clarify if it were indeed yourself who made previous comments as I couldnt remember for sure.
How thats poor form I'll never know 

And after this, in my opinion, you played up your background,so I did ask the question as to who believed you, as many had already said they didnt. But I clearly said that I did beleive you.
I suppose saying I believe you is poor form too??

As for the football boots quote, go back and read the whole sentence again. Start with the word 'if'.

I see after your personal rant about my alleged "poor form" you end with this as an explanation??
I am perfectly aware that you used the word "if" but not in the context of the GAA being "sinn fein in football boots". There was no "if" about that in your comments, and your attempts to muddy the waters just make you look like a coward who doesnt have the balls to at least admit he meant what he said or else retract the statement.

Fine. Show me where. Quote the posts.

As for there being no 'if' in my football comments, here's the complete sentence, rather than the snippet you and others have quoted:
'If the GAA doesn't want to recognise that there are still many people living with the legacy of the recent conflict, people who had family members killed or injured by those Kevin Lynch would have considered his comrades, it should acknowledge that, in the north of Ireland at least, it is basically Sinn Fein in football boots.'
Take out the qualifying clauses: 'If the GAA doesn't want to recognise that there are still many people living with the legacy of the recent conflict, it should acknowledge that it is basically Sinn Fein in football boots.' Still makes perfect sense, doesn't it? The qualifying clauses do not change the conditional nature of the sentence. I can't make it any clearer than that. If you or anyone else still doesn't get it, I'm sorry, there's nothing I can do. Take it up with your old English language teacher.

think its you that needs a revisit to the english classes
that second sentence makes absolutely NO sense.
Its a hell of a jump and looks like someone wiped out half the sentence when trying to tie in
'If the GAA doesn't want to recognise that there are still many people living with the legacy of the recent conflict,
and
it should acknowledge that it is basically Sinn Fein in football boots.'

what is SF in football boots is the question that reading your sentence (unbroken) throws out !
so stop trying to backpeddle now, you had your couple of days to explain it then , not try to retro-justify it and attempt to make everyone accept that theres actual meaning in what you have writtern and continuity within that sentence.
Rubbish.
expect your szicho self to be posting shortly too...