Once again.....Ireland's Call....

[lynchbhoy]

and point out exactly where the second Irish team are hiding ?



or was it 'silly' as it fecked up yer 'argument' 

There is no second Irish rugby team - that is the whole point.
There is one team, selected from two jurisdictions. Therefore the arrangements for flags and anthems etc should either reflect both those jurisdictions, or be neutral and reflect neither. Alternatively, you might select one set of emblems only, on a match-by-match basis, according to the jurisdiction in which the team happens to be playing.
Any other arrangement is either illogical or prejudiced, or both.
Take your pick.

when it doesnt suit your argument

the point stands and unless you and your little pal have something of interest to offer then you'll stay going round in circles arguing your own wee world like the mini hitlers that you society seems to have reared !

[Roger]

and point out exactly where the second Irish team are hiding ?

I presumed (right or wrong?) that you were talking about majority rule within one jurisdiction.  The IRFU is a sporting union of two jurisdictions.  These jurisdictions were decided Political by a majority in both jurisdictions but the IRFU does not recognise nor need to recognise the border as it is a sport not a Political organisation and there is only one team.  Therefore Political anthems are redundant.

or was it 'silly' as it fecked up yer 'argument' 

It is silly because it is totally irrelevant and makes no sense for this topic if you have a basic understanding of democracy, geography and the sport of rugby in Ireland.

[Tonto]

you society seems to have reared !

Have you not been raised in the same society?

[Main Street]

Lynchboy has risen above his circumstances.

Now he is so compatible in surroundings like the Gresham as to be almost invisible.

[mikerob]

However, that is not how I see the game now. From what I observe, the onset of professionalism in rugby union originally led the powers that be (correctly) to conclude that Irish rugby would struggle to maintain four fully-professional teams, to compete in the Magners and Heineken etc, and also to contribute international-quality players to the Ireland team. So first poor Connacht was effectively cast aside, and now we see Ulster being marginalised, as Munster and Leinster establish their dominance over senior rugby on the island. Which from a purely professional club  point of view actually makes sense, since there is no point in dissipating limited resources on one or two struggling teams at the expense of two more successful teams who could better utilise them.

However, the effect of this shift of power within Professional club rugby has also been transferred to the international team, which is now basically seen as a Munster/Leinster select, with the odd Ulster player thrown in. One of the results of this shift in ethos is seen, for example, in the way money has been found by the IRFU to keep star players like Brian O'Driscoll playing his club rugby for Leinster, rather than follow the money to England or France etc. Similarly, I get the impression that they were determined to keep O'Gara with Munster, but wouldn't have cared had David Humphries gone to England, as his brother did.
And I would be interested to compare IRFU funding for Thomond with that allocated to redeveloping Ravenhill (or selling Ravenhill to help fund a new, larger ground for Ulster rugby elsewhere in NI). Of course Munster rugby is on a high - and long may it continue. But this overlooks the fact that for more than the first century of its existence, Ulster's position amongst the Irish Provinces was at least as eminent as either Leinster or Munster. Normally, of course, these things come in cycles; for example, Ulster was the first Irish team to win the Heineken Cup, as recently as nine years ago, and with 13 Ulster-born players, plus a completely assimilated Kiwi who represented Ireland, and one solitary non-Irish player.

However, the way things are going at the moment, if Ulster don't somehow close the gap within the next few years, I fear that the IRFU's prioritisation (bias?) will see Ulster permanently left behind by M & L, to the long-term detriment of the game in the northern Province.

There is too much looking for conspiracy theories here.  The simple answer is that Ulster haven't been good enough on the pitch and haven't had the quality of players compared to Munster and Leinster.  If you look back on the Ulster, Munster and Leinster squads of 4 years ago, and 8 years ago, you'll see that Munster, and to a lesser degree, Leinster, have managed to maintain a core of 6-8 international standard players over this period.  That sort of quality and experience delivers results.  Go back 4 years, and Ulster has had almost 100% squad turnover. Go back another 4 years, and it is almost 100% again.  The home-grown and imported players just haven't been good enough. Successive coaches have tried to build quality squads but have failed, for a variety of reasons.  In the case of Mark McCall, it was because he simply wasn't a good enough coach when it came to man management.

In terms of why Ulster has been so poor, part is probably cyclical.  Ulster had their "golden generation" in the 80s when they won all inter-pros for years and regularly contributed 7 or 8 to the Ireland team.  Perhaps the 00s will be Munster and Leinster's golden generation?  Time will tell - ROG and BOD increasingly look as if their best days are behind them.  But the other reason is structural.  Rugby is still largely a grammar school sport in Ulster and in the late 90s/early 00s a very large proportion of the grammar school output were leaving N Ireland, going to uni in GB and were basically lost to Irish rugby.  You could have predicted that Ulster were going to be poor from the low representation on age group teams at the time.  Establishment of an Ulster academy structure meant that talent could be identified earlier and kept at home.  Players like Ferris are some the first academy output and only now beginning to mature.  In Munster, the focus is more on the club scene than schools, and in Leinster and Munster, school leavers generally go to uni in Ireland.

Regarding resources, it isn't a case of the IRFU only spending money on the two favoured sons - the provinces are expected to increasingly pay their own way.  Look at Munster and Ulster's respective records in the HEC during the 00s.  Munster have been in 9 Quarter Finals, 7 Semi Finals and 4 Finals.  Ulster has been in 0 QFs, 0 SFs and 0 Finals.  That has given Munster a massive financial boost compared to Ulster - it is nothing to do with IRFU prioritisation. Winning games and good facilities puts money in the bank - isn't that how it goes in pro sport?

I'd agree that the financial gap between the provinces is now such that it will be very difficult for Ulster to overcome it.  Munster now has a culture where they expect to win every game while Ulster's culture seems to be trying not to lose too many.  Leinster and Munster both have good stadium facilties while politicians in N Ireland have prevaricated for years.

It is very tempting for some in Ulster to blame the IRFU, but look at the facts.  The people that run Ulster Rugby are Ulstermen, the coaches that weren't good enough were Ulstermen, the vast majority of the teams that have never won a HEC game in England or France have been Ulstermen, the players whose egos wrecked the ML winning team of 05/06 were Ulstermen, the politicians who haven't been able to agree on stadium plans are also Ulstermen.  Blame for the state of Ulster rugby lies in Ulster.

Regarding some specific points that you mentioned in your post:
- There is a tax break for professional sportsmen in the ROI that makes it attractive for players to stay and retire in Ireland.  All things being equal, salaries can be less as benefits come after retirement.  Ulster competes in the GB market for player wages, along with teams like Leicester and the Ospreys.
- David Humphreys DID go to England.  He started his pro career with London Irish.  What brought him back? The IRFU giving him a professional contract.  His brother went to England as he is on the record that he wanted to play for Ulster but wouldn't as long as his big bro was there, as he would always be in his shadow.
- The IRFU has given Munster a loan covering 50% of Thomond Park development with the rest being funded by the Munster branch (through debenture sales and the like).  I believe the loan + interest will be paid back over 10 years.  Understandably, the IRFU has been waiting to see what happens with the Maze... without getting into that whole debate, what has been shameful is the lack of a decision, one way or the other, from the muppet show at Stormont.  UR is also stuck when it comes to developing Ravenhill - because of planning and zoning, capacity can't be increased , and it is zoned as parkland so isn't worth anything to developers.  It could be on the cards for the IRFU to build a new stadium for UR, but they'll want to finish off the Lansdowne Rd development and have some decisions from Stormont first.

[J70]

I have no idea if I'm one of the "brainwashed" to whom this is addressed. But just in case, I have nowhere expressed an opinion that "it is wrong to express any form of Irishness". I don't remember anyone else doing so either. Unless my willingness to have the rugby team use a neutral anthem as a gesture of inclusivity is a form of this perceived persecution, in which case I really think that those who see themselves as suffering this injury need to get a grip of themselves.

I appreciate your stance on this issue, J70 - if those in the upper echelons of Irish rugby currently were so fair-minded, there wouldn't be a problem.

But I have highlighted one phrase in your post which caught my attention. By adopting a "neutral anthem as a gesture of inclusivity", the clear implication is that this would be "Irish Rugby" as a whole making a gesture towards Northern Unionists etc

But however well-meaning, can't you see that Northern Unionists "own" Irish Rugby just as much (or as little) as e.g. Southern Nationalists etc? (Or should do, at least.) As such, playing a neutral anthem should be just as much a "gesture" towards the latter as towards the former.

Which in a way, sums up the whole sorry mess which the sport has got itself into (imo). For as long as I can remember, supporting Ireland in rugby was something entirely natural for someone like me to do, alongside all my fellow Irish men and women. I did not see it as making me any "more Irish" or "less British" etc, since I simply never defined my support for the team in political terms, nor was I required to do so by anyone else.

It wasn't my intention to suggest that Irish rugby doesn't belong to unionists. In fact, I have been arguing this entire thread that the team does represent both traditions and because of this the neutral anthem is appropriate. In terms of gestures of inclusivity, I was talking more about the willingness or reluctance of nationalists/southerners, exemplified on this thread, to let go of AnbF in this context and accept Ireland's Call for that very reason, as opposed to suggesting that the team doesn't belong to unionists but that we should be encouraging them to take part. Maybe I haven't articulated it too well, but the difference is clear, at least to me!