New book on Padraig Nally case

[guy crouchback]

This case is unfortunately a 'difficult' case to base any laws or analysis of laws upon, as the old maxim goes Hard cases make bad law.  Nally was tortured and that is a given,  he reacted when he shot them but he then reloaded and followed Ward down the lane to deliver the fatal shot when Ward was escaping.  That to me takes it out of the realms of defending your property and into the realms of murder.  Also the fact that Ward was a Traveler adds a whole other layer to it.  Would the reaction have been the same if it had been a hood shot as opposed to a 'gypo'? Somehow I don't think so.  This case shows up a lot of the latent racism that is rife in Ireland and has always been there.  It is the product of a 99% single identity, mono-cultural, conservative, slightly right of centre up bringing that the majority of the population have experienced.  The case of Padraig Nally should be analysed on it's own merits and not as part of a back drop to a 'fear of gypos'.  Travelers have a history of crime but if any of you sit in the courts during the day you'll find the majority of crimes are carried out by our own home made brand of scum.  As someone who has many friends from the extended Traveler community I think it is important that we see the other side of it before we brand them all with the brush that many do.

just to clarify the course of events in relation to nally's acquittal. he was initially charged with murder and tried in castlebar. the judge, justice Carney instructed the jury that they could not acquit him, the least severe option open to them was guilty of manslaughter.  this was what happened and he went to jail.

this decision was challenged and overturned on the basis of that instruction to the jury. there was then a full retrial in Dublin. he was here acquitted of all charges on the basis of self defence. this was despite the fact that he shot, reloaded and shot again. the thinking behind this was that if Frog Ward got away, on the balance of probabilities he would have returned and killed nally, his son (wards) was nearby.
in my opinion this is a reasonable conclusion to come to, if Nally had not killed ward at that point then ward would have killed him, this is the decision the jury, who heard all the evidence came to, and not a local jury a Dublin jury.

[Franko]

Wasn't aware of this gc - that seems an entirely reasonable conclusion to reach.

[brokencrossbar1]

This case is unfortunately a 'difficult' case to base any laws or analysis of laws upon, as the old maxim goes Hard cases make bad law.  Nally was tortured and that is a given,  he reacted when he shot them but he then reloaded and followed Ward down the lane to deliver the fatal shot when Ward was escaping.  That to me takes it out of the realms of defending your property and into the realms of murder.  Also the fact that Ward was a Traveler adds a whole other layer to it.  Would the reaction have been the same if it had been a hood shot as opposed to a 'gypo'? Somehow I don't think so.  This case shows up a lot of the latent racism that is rife in Ireland and has always been there.  It is the product of a 99% single identity, mono-cultural, conservative, slightly right of centre up bringing that the majority of the population have experienced.  The case of Padraig Nally should be analysed on it's own merits and not as part of a back drop to a 'fear of gypos'.  Travelers have a history of crime but if any of you sit in the courts during the day you'll find the majority of crimes are carried out by our own home made brand of scum.  As someone who has many friends from the extended Traveler community I think it is important that we see the other side of it before we brand them all with the brush that many do.

just to clarify the course of events in relation to nally's acquittal. he was initially charged with murder and tried in castlebar. the judge, justice Carney instructed the jury that they could not acquit him, the least severe option open to them was guilty of manslaughter.  this was what happened and he went to jail.

this decision was challenged and overturned on the basis of that instruction to the jury. there was then a full retrial in Dublin. he was here acquitted of all charges on the basis of self defence. this was despite the fact that he shot, reloaded and shot again. the thinking behind this was that if Frog Ward got away, on the balance of probabilities he would have returned and killed nally, his son (wards) was nearby.
in my opinion this is a reasonable conclusion to come to, if Nally had not killed ward at that point then ward would have killed him, this is the decision the jury, who heard all the evidence came to, and not a local jury a Dublin jury.

That is reasonable to a point but surely the mindset of Nally should have been assessed and not Ward in determining what might happen.  Did Nally know his sons were nearby?  Did Ward threaten him that he was going to come back and kill him?  How far away were his sons?  How badly was he injured?  I don't know the answers to these questions but they are very relevant in determining the mindset.

[guy crouchback]

indeed. i don't know the answer to these questions either but i assume they were teased out during the trial before the jury.

[LeoMc]

Now hould on there Guy and BC, you are looking at the individual circumstances of what actually happened in an effort to see what decisions were made on the fateful night and in the Courts.

That is not in the spirit of this thread, only broad brush generalisations are acceptable, the more extreme the better.

[BennyCake]

When did travellers become a race? At what point in time did they fulfil the criteria?

Some of ye do-gooders would want to cop yourselves on. Nally had no choice but to do what he did, fair play to him for doing it. Not only did he solve his own problem but he saved many others from having to suffer at the hands of that yolk and maybe made some others think twice before carrying on like that.

If that makes me "racist" or whatever then great, I'll embrace it. It would also make hundreds of thousands of other Irish people "racist".

+1

+2

It just shows you the poor state of affairs our country is in if they think this is acceptable.

Yes, I put a label on him for his exact remarks. The said person put a label on a group of people which he doesn't know.

I know plenty of them. Myself and my family have had to contend with them on a daily basis: living beside them, education, places of recreation and employment. Some of the things we have witnessed and put up with is disgusting. The authorities don't want to know. They do what they like, when they like. They drive around robbing and thieving, they prey on vulnerable people, do half-arsed jobs for and rip them off with hundreds if not thousands of pounds. They are feckin menaces on the road, endangering countless lives, and the cops sit back and allow it. I've seen it myself. They are all brought up with the same cunning, sneaky, thieving attitude, every f**king one of them.

So don't sit ther and tell me I don't know gypos. Try living next door to a squad of them and I guarantee you'll change your attitude.

[theticklemister]

When did travellers become a race? At what point in time did they fulfil the criteria?

Some of ye do-gooders would want to cop yourselves on. Nally had no choice but to do what he did, fair play to him for doing it. Not only did he solve his own problem but he saved many others from having to suffer at the hands of that yolk and maybe made some others think twice before carrying on like that.

If that makes me "racist" or whatever then great, I'll embrace it. It would also make hundreds of thousands of other Irish people "racist".

+1

+2

It just shows you the poor state of affairs our country is in if they think this is acceptable.

Yes, I put a label on him for his exact remarks. The said person put a label on a group of people which he doesn't know.

I know plenty of them. Myself and my family have had to contend with them on a daily basis: living beside them, education, places of recreation and employment. Some of the things we have witnessed and put up with is disgusting. The authorities don't want to know. They do what they like, when they like. They drive around robbing and thieving, they prey on vulnerable people, do half-arsed jobs for and rip them off with hundreds if not thousands of pounds. They are feckin menaces on the road, endangering countless lives, and the cops sit back and allow it. I've seen it myself. They are all brought up with the same cunning, sneaky, thieving attitude, every f**king one of them.

So don't sit ther and tell me I don't know gypos. Try living next door to a squad of them and I guarantee you'll change your attitude.

Everyone of them? Including the wee lad in a wheelchair who was severely paralysed who we had the honour of playing music at his first communion in Warrington?

[macdanger2]

This case had nothing to do with Ward being a traveller, the same would apply if he were non-traveller.

Some of the comments on here are well out of order - the same kind of thinking that was going on down in Waterfordyesterday when those Roma families were attacked.